top ten signs you're a xian

[(Q)]

So the question is, if I take the bible, select only the good parts and follow those, do I have the right to call myself a Christian? I can see why you would say "no" but I also think there is a case for "yes" - if my goal is to merely emulate Christ and follow his teachings, I think it is acceptable to label myself as one. Did Jesus ever endorse the bible as a whole? I honestly don't know. He certainly didn't write any of it. To me the essence of Christianity lies in doing what Christ said - which is basically pretty simple.

That is, of course, if the Christ actually existed, for which there is no evidence other than what Christians claim.

Many, if not all of the so-called teachings of Christ were merely that which can be extrapolated from sociological interactions. An athiest would follow the credo to live a good life not intentionally doing harm to others. What is so different from that which you would endorse from Christianity?

 

[(Q)]

BTW - kudos to geeser!

 

[Lerxst]

Rev. Shelby may attack bible literalism but he is still an intolerant religionist whether he admits it or not and is a theist.

I'm sorry, but how is the man intolerant?

 

[Lerxst]

That is, of course, if the Christ actually existed, for which there is no evidence other than what Christians claim.

No argument.

Many, if not all of the so-called teachings of Christ were merely that which can be extrapolated from sociological interactions. An athiest would follow the credo to live a good life not intentionally doing harm to others. What is so different from that which you would endorse from Christianity?

Nothing. I'm not saying that the bible really has anything unique, from a moral perspective. It is just that often, people tend to like to emulate someone, to give their school of thought a name, etc. Joe is a Platonist. Bob is a Christian. Also, for whatever reason, we are story-tellers, and putting our morality in the form of parables and such has a particular resonance with people. There is nothing wrong with that, per se.

 

[iam]

There is nothing wrong with it except when you have books such as the koran and the bible claiming to be the word of god. god or gods recognized as the ultimate authority. Therein lies the danger because it is open to interpretation, twisting and even taken literally in which a majority is meant to be. A book is one thing and an ideology is another. Take for instance, the scripture "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Today, most christians would deny that is what was literally meant. That itself is bs. Because that scripture is blatantly endorsing physical violence against children as a means of control or discipline. Anyone who twists its meaning is being dishonest themselves. To defend something and pretend it is something than what it is is also bullshit. Christianity and the bible is fundamentally intolerant. It doesn't matter if Rev. Shelby seems intolerant or tolerant because he defends a book and an ideology, christianity that is.

 

[(Q)]

Nothing. I'm not saying that the bible really has anything unique, from a moral perspective. It is just that often, people tend to like to emulate someone, to give their school of thought a name, etc. Joe is a Platonist. Bob is a Christian. Also, for whatever reason, we are story-tellers, and putting our morality in the form of parables and such has a particular resonance with people. There is nothing wrong with that, per se.

Agreed. But that is not the case, is it? If it were, religion would not exist.

 

[TheVisitor]

What you need to be is a xenophobe......
Because the nations of man in Ronald Reagans words;
"will find their differences a small matter if we were attacked from another world."

We are under attack......"from another world" if you consider worlds as dimensions.....
Spiritual attack from the prince of the power of the air.
He attacks us from within and without, in this the greatest battle ever fought.
He comes at you from your own flesh and from those around you, without.
You must decide what is true, find an absolute and stick to it, or you are as a man who builds his house upon shifting sand and loses all.
Jesus Christ is the hero in this story, He died that we might live...but beware the false religions of man that will take even this truth and turn it into something false with their creeds.
Follow your heart.....His spirit will guide you into all truth, but it's like a path in the widerness at night.
If you hold the latern of His spirit for light He will give you enough for the next step....
Stay on the path, will the light in your grasp and you will make it.
Little by little, precept by precept, line upon line, here a little there a little...

 

[(Q)]

We are under attack......"from another world" if you consider worlds as dimensions.....

That world is here, it is reality.

You must decide what is true, find an absolute and stick to it, or you are as a man who builds his house upon shifting sand and loses all.

That's rather contradictory considering that absolutes depend on nothing, hence are beyond human control. We would therefore be bound to that of the absoluteness of supernaturally controlled destinies... no free will.

Jesus Christ is the hero in this story, He died that we might live...but beware the false religions of man that will take even this truth and turn it into something false with their creeds.

But, he didn't really die, did he? If he was the embodiment of god, or god himself, then he always did exist and always will, he is infinite. So, he merely used a human body as a scuttle, of sorts, only giving the impression of resurrection, that image I might add, was gobbled up by the masses, hook, line and sinker.

 

[Lerxst]

Agreed. But that is not the case, is it? If it were, religion would not exist.

I think religion exists for a multitude of reasons. Some of those reasons were more legitimate, in a sense, 2000 years ago, and not now. Such as having an explanation for the world. We don't need that aspect of religion anymore. And I think at least some of religious persons realize this. Joe Blow does not got to church to learn about how the earth was formed. Joe Blow has learned that that is science's job.

Instead, people go to be social, they go because we are social primates that like being in groups that have similarities. They go because they might see their pastor as being a fount of wisdom and ethical insight and because he might sincerely care for them. They go for consolation. These are all legitimate reasons.

What is going to replace this for all the millions of people for whom religion is so important?

 

[Lerxst]

There is nothing wrong with it except when you have books such as the koran and the bible claiming to be the word of god. god or gods recognized as the ultimate authority. Therein lies the danger because it is open to interpretation, twisting and even taken literally in which a majority is meant to be. A book is one thing and an ideology is another. Take for instance, the scripture "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Today, most christians would deny that is what was literally meant. That itself is bs. Because that scripture is blatantly endorsing physical violence against children as a means of control or discipline. Anyone who twists its meaning is being dishonest themselves. To defend something and pretend it is something than what it is is also bullshit. Christianity and the bible is fundamentally intolerant. It doesn't matter if Rev. Shelby seems intolerant or tolerant because he defends a book and an ideology, christianity that is.

Well, I understand your perspective better now. I certainly sympathize with it too, being raised in a religious home and having a father that certainly didn't spare the goddamn rod on me.

But I still see these liberal theologians as a huge step in the right direction, and I see them as major allies against the real danger, which is religious extremism.

It is my hope that Christianity will evolve into something humane, more tolerant. It is not going to just disappear. If all christians were like Spong you'd look rather silly calling them intolerant. If you didn't look at the link, I'd politely request you at least give it a glance - there is a summary of the various points that he stands for, and I think you might be rather surpised by his stances.

And I look at the bible not as one book, but a collection of them, some far more reasonable and useful than others. I'm sure it has undergone transformations over time. Hopefully in the future some of the the bad bits will drop away. I don't know. Some parts of it have high value as literature. Ecclesiastes is sublime and lovely, for example, and my life is better for having read it.

 

[(Q)]

I think religion exists for a multitude of reasons. Some of those reasons were more legitimate, in a sense, 2000 years ago, and not now. Such as having an explanation for the world. We don't need that aspect of religion anymore.

And we never did, since it led to what religion has brought society to today, with every fabric of its vile nature, that which is the embodiment of ignorance and fear, supplanting the curiousity within us to understand nature and ultimately, ourselves.

Instead, people go to be social, they go because we are social primates that like being in groups that have similarities. They go because they might see their pastor as being a fount of wisdom and ethical insight and because he might sincerely care for them. They go for consolation. These are all legitimate reasons.

The pastor does not care for them as people, but instead sheep within a flock, to be steered about with tales of fantasy and easy answers that offer little help with their lives.

What is going to replace this for all the millions of people for whom religion is so important?

Reality.

 

[Lerxst]

The pastor does not care for them as people, but instead sheep within a flock, to be steered about with tales of fantasy and easy answers that offer little help with their lives.

C'mon. Look, I know as well as you that there have been plenty of Elmer Gantrys out there. But you cannot make a sweeping generalization that every bishop, pastor or vicar or whatever has been nothing but some shallow, manipulative scum that doesn't care about his parishoners. It is risible to suggest that.

Atheists often complain (and rightly so) about being painted with a broad brush by the religious as immoral and worse. Is this any different?

 

[(Q)]

C'mon. Look, I know as well as you that there have been plenty of Elmer Gantrys out there. But you cannot make a sweeping generalization that every bishop, pastor or vicar or whatever has been nothing but some shallow, manipulative scum that doesn't care about his parishoners. It is risible to suggest that.

Perhaps, but they are peddling lies, ignorance and fear and then have the nerve to ask for money. Isn't that rather shallow and manipulative?

Atheists often complain (and rightly so) about being painted with a broad brush by the religious as immoral and worse. Is this any different?

I would paint anyone and everyone with the brush of reason from the palette of rationale if they truly believed in supernaturally controlled destinies of humans. It is utterly and completely contemptible.

 

[SnakeLord]

I'm sure it has undergone transformations over time. Hopefully in the future some of the the bad bits will drop away.

'It is well worthy of note that of all the multitude of texts through which man has driven his annihilating pen he has never once made the mistake of obliterating a good and useful one. It does certainly seem to suggest that if man continues in the direction of enlightenment, his religious practice may, in the end, attain some semblance of human decency.'

Twain.

 

[Lerxst]

Perhaps, but they are peddling lies, ignorance and fear and then have the nerve to ask for money. Isn't that rather shallow and manipulative?

I guess I look at it as a function of which particular denomination is in question.

But if we were to look at the set of all Christian ministers, past and present, I'd have to agree, that overall, yes, at least most of them are providing a disservice. I think now in the age of mre liberal sects that this is not always the case, though.

Just like everything else, there are distributions, and there are statistical outliers. Not all religious figures are wholly bad.

 

[(Q)]

Not all religious figures are wholly bad.

I suppose that is where we probably disagree, and where I'll be forced to beat you into submission to see otherwise.

 

[TheVisitor]

That's rather contradictory considering that absolutes depend on nothing, hence are beyond human control. We would therefore be bound to that of the absoluteness of supernaturally controlled destinies... no free will..

----------------
Nonsense and doublespeak..............I said find an absolute, And stick to it.
In my opinion, there is only one, the bible.

Saying there is no free will, is exactly satan's arguement against God.......it's a lie born from ingnorance and lack of faith

So, he merely used a human body as a scuttle, of sorts.

-----
You talk like thats so easy.. ......we are a tri-une being...body, spirit, and soul.
He came in the flesh and let His body be crucifed to death.
He wanted to stay, He had friends, people he cared about, He was only 33 years old...He said "If it be posible, let this cup pass from me"
But He obeyed the Fathers will, which is the Spirit of God in every son.....not a 2nd part of a 3 part God like the heathen trinitarians would have you believe
and He went to His death.
To save those people He loved, and fulfill the scriptures that spoke of Him, He had to die.
That was His purpose in coming last time, not now.....
He is the son of man, and comes to be glorified in His people.

 

[Lerxst]

I suppose that is where we probably disagree, and where I'll be forced to beat you into submission to see otherwise.

It is probably not worth the effort anymore. Any example I offer up of someone that fits the bill for me would be considered bad by you, simply by virtue of their being religious. Besides, there are theists out there that you could be beating, and I don't want to distract you from that any further. But I've enjoyed the chat.

Cheers.

 

[(Q)]

Any example I offer up of someone that fits the bill for me would be considered bad by you, simply by virtue of their being religious.

Well, if they believe in supernatural beings, then they've lost their ability to rationalize and reason and cannot be trusted to do so without having their beliefs poison their decision making processes.

Can any good come from that?

Perhaps, if we look at the case of the quiet meek individual who will tell you that if not for Jesus, he would have been an axe murderer.

Amen for that.

 

[(Q)]

----------------
Nonsense and doublespeak..............I said find an absolute, And stick to it.
In my opinion, there is only one, the bible.

And reality can take a nosedive off a short pier. The only absolute in life is death, and even that might change one day. The bible has been shown to be little more than a book of fairy tales, yet you cling to it and shun all that is reality. Surely, you must know the bible is flawed?

Saying there is no free will, is exactly satan's arguement against God.......it's a lie born from ingnorance and lack of faith

YOU said it in no uncertain terms by claiming the bible as an absolute.

You talk like thats so easy.. ......we are a tri-une being...body, spirit, and soul.
He came in the flesh and let His body be crucifed to death.
He wanted to stay, He had friends, people he cared about, He was only 33 years old...He said "If it be posible, let this cup pass from me"
But He obeyed the Fathers will, which is the Spirit of God in every son.....not a 2nd part of a 3 part God like the heathen trinitarians would have you believe
and He went to His death.
To save those people He loved, and fulfill the scriptures that spoke of Him, He had to die.
That was His purpose in coming last time, not now.....
He is the son of man, and comes to be glorified in His people.

Then, are you saying Jesus wasn't a god or wasn't the son of god? If he was merely a man, then he would have died and he would have stayed dead. If he was a god or the son of god, he never died since he was infinite to begin with.

Take your choice and 'stick' with it.