To Theists: Why do you value hope more than truth?

[S.A.M.]

I do love peace. Apparently far more that those that carry the banner of religion.

You should be the poster boy for "Atheists for Harmony"

 

[superluminal]

You should be the poster boy for "Atheists for Harmony"

I take that all as a compliment! Thanks!

BTW, the "That's it?" guy is a befuddled theist!

 

[madanthonywayne]

What if you find out you are 100% incorrect and learn that 'God' in any shape or form does not exist? What about your hopes of an afterlife and that your dead relatives are happy and well? Do you just fall out of the apple cart?

You can't prove a negative, so I don't see that happening.

What if every big question you had was answered by science and its absolutely the opposite of what you hoped for. What then?

There is no scientific explanation of anything in this universe that could invalidate the existance of God. As I said, you can't prove a negative. So let's turn the question around.

What if the rapture happened, every Christian on earth disappeared? What if this was followed by a one world government based in Babylon and this government required all citizens to get a bar code tatooed on their arm or face in order to do business? What if multiple plagues befell the earth? What if Jesus came back and led his army to victory against the legion of the damned?

Would you deny God to the very end?

 

[Adstar]

I suspect that loosing all that hope would be devastating. Would you seek alternative sources?




Something significant does happen and I am really interested to hear how you, as a Theist, can model your behaviors in such a scenario.

You have many ex theists in here who can give you that information. Most of them seem to find meaning out of becoming raving anti-christs.

And if you loose hope of eternity what possible alternative source of hope could there possibly be?????? The only hope is eternity with God otherwise when we die we die and the entire struggle and suffering in this world is for nothing.

There is no alternative. And no way to regain hope if one losses their belief in God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Crunchy Cat]

What an illogical remark (but then again you are using atheistic faith), what evidence would indicate that a soul exists? Exactly...

Nothing illogical about it. People often forget that people are motivated to make false claims. When a claim rides too long without any evidence what's left is human motivation. Remember we're talking about claims... not ideas. There is a huge difference between claiming and speculating.

Regarding your 'soul' question, I would be happy to answer. Which definition of 'soul' would you like an indicator for?

There's already many indications that consciousness may exist independantly of the brain...your logic is simple, if something is untestable, then its false, evidence causes something to become true, so all things without evidence are false....its the atheistic logic

The only objective indication that consciousness might persist after death (i.e. out-of-body experiences) have been invalidated by an experiment in American hospitals. Beyond that there are no objective indicators that support the notion. There is no reason to believe its true.

Wait wait wait..first you say yeah you agree that the truth is the truth with or without evidence, then say "What? What things can be true without evidence?"...

Examples are all the previously discovered things (you know which were true before discovered)...do you think all the 100,000+ volcanos discovered existed before they were discovered? If you say yes then you agree that there are innumerable things that are already true without evidence...

I meant, what are the reasons to accept claims of truth as truth without evidence? If I claim the zaboombafoo dimension exists, do you accept that as truth?

No you wouldn't, if this really happened atheists would come up with many alternative explanations like "you know retarded people aren't really dumb", "there's no reason to believe that God or anything supernatural was involved"

Would they? I bet you I could get 90-100% of all the atheists on this site to sign an affidavit stating otherwise if you could had such evidence.

It doesn't matter if I have hope or not, belief or not, evidence or not, the truth is the truth with or without these things...

Are you saying that hope doesn't matter?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Lucy in the sky with diamonds?

A futureistic pill with an optional high it is.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

EEEGADS! it will???

Hahahahah . Now what if science took that hope out of something you placed it in at a much deeper level?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Agreed. But consider... Do we "look down" on murderers? Rapsits? Thieves? Do they not willfully engage in heinous stupidity?

Yes we do and yes they do. At the same time, do people generally learn and change when they are looked down upon or are they more likely to respond with extreme behavior?

Well, I think that theism leads directly to those things (in a broad historical sense) and needs to be crushed at every opportunity. I consider theism, in the modern world, to be willful stupidity and worthy of "looking down" upon.

I would bet there are more criminal Atheists than criminal Buddhists. Religion and religious leaders can focus human behavior for positive or destructive outcomes of a depth not normally available to an individual. Contrast Ghandi and Pope Innocent III. The majority of people on this planet have an psychological need to 'believe' and 'hope'. If you crush one religion that provides for those needs then another one will pop up and take its place. Religion being the enemy is a Red Herring. Human behavior is the issue and how to focus it non-destructively under normal or extreme circumstances is by far a much more realistic goal.

I know how peaceful xianity and islam are. They all preach love and tolerance and peace, right? Whether they really do or not is moot. The religious idea in the hands of the common mob always leads to cultism, seperatism, group-think, and ultimately the marginalization of those who don't "believe".

Bah.

I can find positive outcomes in both religions that require a group effort. I can also find a rediculous amount of negative outcomes that require group effort. Educating people so they are more resilient against superstition is a good thing and providing an outlet for human psychological needs might be even more important.

 

[SnakeLord]

What if the rapture happened, every Christian on earth disappeared?

If every christian on earth disappeared I'd know there was a god, as my prayers had been answered

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You can't prove a negative, so I don't see that happening.

It is true that a negative without detail cannot be proven... which is often the case in generic claims of existence. The moment detail is given that have real objective relationships then the claim becomes falsifiable and technically the negative can be proven at that point. For example, the generic idea of 'God' cannot be disproven, but specific claims of 'God' can (ex. the Christian 'God').

There is no scientific explanation of anything in this universe that could invalidate the existance of God. As I said, you can't prove a negative. So let's turn the question around.

What if there was? Lets say our knowledge hit the point of singularity? What if we could say "yep, there is no 'God'" because we had visibility into everything? What becomes of your hope in that scenario?

Naturally, I'll be happy to answer your question(s) as well. Looking forward to your answer(s) to mine.

What if the rapture happened, every Christian on earth disappeared?

I would know that the Christian 'God' exists and I would be very confused as to how it could have done such a poor job of communication.

What if this was followed by a one world government based in Babylon and this government required all citizens to get a bar code tatooed on their arm or face in order to do business?

What if multiple plagues befell the earth?

It wouldn't really matter at that point, the Christians disappearing would have been a strong tip off that Christian assertions are correct.

What if Jesus came back and led his army to victory against the legion of the damned?

I would probably ask why an omnipotent life form needed an army.

Would you deny God to the very end?

The question implies a view of Atheism I am not familiar with as I am not aware of Atheists whom would shy away from hard evidence in the least.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You have many ex theists in here who can give you that information. Most of them seem to find meaning out of becoming raving anti-christs.

I already know their answers. No sense in asking the chior .

And if you loose hope of eternity what possible alternative source of hope could there possibly be?????? The only hope is eternity with God otherwise when we die we die and the entire struggle and suffering in this world is for nothing.

There is no alternative. And no way to regain hope if one losses their belief in God.

Lets say science had destroyed that hope, yet there was a new belief system that asserted things much greater than the notion of 'God', 'Heaven', etc. Something that science could not even begin to conceive of touching. Would you re-invest your hope in that?

 

[madanthonywayne]

What if there was? Lets say our knowledge hit the point of singularity? What if we could say "yep, there is no 'God'" because we had visibility into everything? What becomes of your hope in that scenario?

I really don't see how our knowledge could ever be that complete. However, I'm always open to changing my mind given evidence that my opinion on an issue is incorrect.

Your question reminds me of one of my favorite stories in which humanity has just finished linking every computer in the galaxy into one super-computer with unimaginable power. Some official throws the switch which "turns on" the system and the official is given the honor of asking the first question. Like you, this gentleman believes that since this massive computer composed of the global computers of hundreds of planets is so powerful (singularity?), the question of the existance of God can finally be put to rest. He poses the question, "Is there a God?" Without any hesitation, the computer answers, "Yes, now there is a God."

The question implies a view of Atheism I am not familiar with as I am not aware of Atheists whom would shy away from hard evidence in the least.

So then you'd become Christian, refuse the mark of the beast, and open yourself up to execution. It's good to hear that you're that intellectually honest.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I really don't see how our knowledge could ever be that complete. However, I'm always open to changing my mind given evidence that my opinion on an issue is incorrect.

What if your opinion was incorrect? What happens to your hope?

Your question reminds me of one of my favorite stories in which humanity has just finished linking every computer in the galaxy into one super-computer with unimaginable power. Some official throws the switch which "turns on" the system and the official is given the honor of asking the first question. Like you, this gentleman believes that since this massive computer composed of the global computers of hundreds of planets is so powerful (singularity?), the question of the existance of God can finally be put to rest. He poses the question, "Is there a God?" Without any hesitation, the computer answers, "Yes, now there is a God."

Heh.

So then you'd become Christian, refuse the mark of the beast, and open yourself up to execution. It's good to hear that you're that intellectually honest.

At that point no doubt I would become a Christian (allthough I would still hold the position that 'God' is the universes worst communicator). If of course the antichrist figure appeared as predicted and I found there was benefit to offing him early then I would probably accept the mark of the beast, get real close to that fella and see if his head and brain would regenerate after being obliterated. If of course there was no benefit to offing it early then I would likely go down in some gunfight blaze of glory against an 'evil' horde.

 

[lightgigantic]

Then what. Do you just roll over and throw the towel in?

if you could create life from matter, sure

IMO, science will likely result in computerized AC far before biological AC.

in my opinion you are barking up the wrong tree

If that happens, are the worlds apples just going to topple over with a dull thud?

I imagine so

 

[lightgigantic]

So you don't agree with the idea that philosophers/theologians should only work with things the we can perceive(since anything else is nothing but an idea you have)?

who is the "we"?

as a further point

philosophy usually deals with rationalism (the mind)
science usually deals with empiricism ( the senses)
theists usually deal with transcendence ( the consciousness)

 

[lightgigantic]

Ah yes! Our favorite indirectly observable entities - electrons!

So, I claim that lightning exists. Never mind what it consists of. We all see lightning and can readily observe and agree on many of its characteristics.

I see lightning but I don't see an electron - neither did Benjamin Franklin

You claim it is the sword of Zeus and is made of "divine fire".

I do?

I doubt you and start to make some tests that lead me, over millenia, to be able to demonstrate (even to you) that it is made of "electrons" (which is just the greek word for "amber" since rubbing amber with wool was one of the first ways that people observed triboelectricity, or static charge build-up).

I see sheep wool - I can even see amber - but no electrons so far

If you went to a decent high school you might have even been treated to the millikan oil drop experiment, from which you can directly measure the charge of a thing called an "electron".

notice how such verification relies on me "doing" what you "say"

Now, you claim there is a god. Something incredibly all-pervasive and powerful. Please show me a simple quantification that demonstrates that this god is the source of... whatever you choose, and not some other explanation (like electrons). Why not demonstrate to me that electrons are of godly origin? Or a tree? Or a microbe?

so you mean, just like I am required to "do" an experiment to verify electrons, after having assimilated a body of theory for a foundation .... you are now prepared to "do" something in the name of spiritual life, having assimilated a body of theory as a foundation?

Whats that? You say that everything we've investigated so far is based on well know physics, but the parts we don't yet understand are god-caused? God of the gaps, you say? Right.

you tell me - you're the one speaking all this-lol

 

[Adstar]

I already know their answers. No sense in asking the chior .

Well if the chior has the answers then it is best to ask the Chior. If you want to know about singing then you need to take to the chior.

Lets say science had destroyed that hope, yet there was a new belief system that asserted things much greater than the notion of 'God', 'Heaven', etc. Something that science could not even begin to conceive of touching. Would you re-invest your hope in that?

The new belief system would be created by man. So i would not trust in it at all. Why trust in something created by imperfect beings with imperfect thoughts? Only a God could deliver a perfect system of belief. Man has had thousands of years and has bounced from one failed idea to another and then they have repeated history all over again, going around in bloody circles like chickens with their heads cut of. The new "system" would be just an old system regurgitated with a new name and trimmings.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

At that point no doubt I would become a Christian (allthough I would still hold the position that 'God' is the universes worst communicator). If of course the antichrist figure appeared as predicted and I found there was benefit to offing him early then I would probably accept the mark of the beast, get real close to that fella and see if his head and brain would regenerate after being obliterated. If of course there was no benefit to offing it early then I would likely go down in some gunfight blaze of glory against an 'evil' horde.

If you where a Christian you would believe in the Prophecies related to the anti-christ and you would realise that any attempted assassination would fail. Even when the bullet hits the target the false prophet will restore the assassinated anti-christ. If you became a Christian then you would know that the Anti-christ will only be defeated at the battle of Armageddon.

So you would never accept the mark of the beast or even attempt to assassinate the anti-christ, you would refuse to worship his image that moves and you would accept being beheaded for refusing.

The evil horde will be taken care of by the returning messiah Jesus and those that accompany Him upon his return. There is not need to pick up any gun and blaze at anyone.

God has the future under control.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Crunchy Cat]

if you could create life from matter, sure

I meant, if science destroyed your hope, would you (as a human) just give up?

in my opinion you are barking up the wrong tree

You never know.

I imagine so

Do all those people then just give up, got to bed, and stay in bed?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Well if the chior has the answers then it is best to ask the Chior. If you want to know about singing then you need to take to the chior.

But they are the Chior. They have already crossed a point that others may never cross. It's those differences that keep others from crossing that matter.

The new belief system would be created by man. So i would not trust in it at all. Why trust in something created by imperfect beings with imperfect thoughts? Only a God could deliver a perfect system of belief. Man has had thousands of years and has bounced from one failed idea to another and then they have repeated history all over again, going around in bloody circles like chickens with their heads cut of. The new "system" would be just an old system regurgitated with a new name and trimmings.

What if the new system was truly original and was found flawless? Would you invest your hope in it or would you remain hopeless for the rest of your days?