Probably 'this sucks'.
Comprehension & clarity of thought are two biggies in my book.
It depends whether personal satisfaction means anything to you.
For me it does. When I die, it's my hope that I will at least be
personally satisfied with my life.
To die as an atheist
- Thread starter Abdiel
- Start date
Probably 'this sucks'.
Comprehension & clarity of thought are two biggies in my book.
It depends whether personal satisfaction means anything to you.
For me it does. When I die, it's my hope that I will at least be
personally satisfied with my life.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
Abdiel-
I do not see how this whole argument you put forth has any pull regarding free will. Those habits were done because the person either enjoyed them or it was a simple habit. There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts. The acts are forms of stimulation that cause a positive reaction for the individual. The purpose is simple gratification, nothing more.
Not true. You would make a "choice" thinking it was free, but it was the ultimate result of past events cumulating into the present situation.
To make an analogy comparing humans to rocks and their respective content regarding existance is ridiculous. Rocks do not feel content, they are inanimate objects.
If humans were content with their lives, growth would cease. We as humans strive to be better, I see this as a positive result of our lack of content for our current situation. We can do better and we will.
I do not see how this whole argument you put forth has any pull regarding free will. Those habits were done because the person either enjoyed them or it was a simple habit. There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts. The acts are forms of stimulation that cause a positive reaction for the individual. The purpose is simple gratification, nothing more.
Not true. You would make a "choice" thinking it was free, but it was the ultimate result of past events cumulating into the present situation.
To make an analogy comparing humans to rocks and their respective content regarding existance is ridiculous. Rocks do not feel content, they are inanimate objects.
If humans were content with their lives, growth would cease. We as humans strive to be better, I see this as a positive result of our lack of content for our current situation. We can do better and we will.
DefSkeptic;
You have written;
"I do not see how this whole argument you put forth has any pull regarding free will. Those habits were done because the person either enjoyed them or it was a simple habit. There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts. The acts are forms of stimulation that cause a positive reaction for the individual. The purpose is simple gratification, nothing more."
If the person enjoyed doing this simple act would you not consider them doing this act freely? The act was decided upon by that person and was carried out by that person. The whole point of free will is that the person decides upon the action out of their own intentions. Whose to say that skipping is of free will and that riding a bike has some purpose? What I mean to say is that in your statement you say "There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts." This pertains to some purpose in the universe, not free will. Of course the purpose would be pleasurable for that person that is why they commence their own ritual. Furthermore, without free will, as I have gathered, one would mean to say that our actions are guided by some force, some purpose. How can there be some aspects of life which are done freely and others that are controlled?
The other point that you brought up about a cumulation of events,
"Not true. You would make a "choice" thinking it was free, but it was the ultimate result of past events cumulating into the present situation."
Past events? In the example which I showed the choice is between right and left, a past event for choosing a side would be favoring right over left or vice versa, are these the "past events" to which you refer.
Finally, I find no flaw to your last point, in fact, I find it rather intriguing. Is it that we only grow because of the vices in this world? That perhaps in heaven there is no growth becuase of eternal happiness? Then again a question may arise over growing past anything after death. However, the thought does come to mind that humans need their chaos to grow and though it is a proven fact (examples of this can be found in wartime situations, specifically the United States during WWII) it is still rather disheartning to hear. That without the imbalances in our lives we would never strive...
You have written;
"I do not see how this whole argument you put forth has any pull regarding free will. Those habits were done because the person either enjoyed them or it was a simple habit. There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts. The acts are forms of stimulation that cause a positive reaction for the individual. The purpose is simple gratification, nothing more."
If the person enjoyed doing this simple act would you not consider them doing this act freely? The act was decided upon by that person and was carried out by that person. The whole point of free will is that the person decides upon the action out of their own intentions. Whose to say that skipping is of free will and that riding a bike has some purpose? What I mean to say is that in your statement you say "There does not need to be some universal purpose to such simple acts." This pertains to some purpose in the universe, not free will. Of course the purpose would be pleasurable for that person that is why they commence their own ritual. Furthermore, without free will, as I have gathered, one would mean to say that our actions are guided by some force, some purpose. How can there be some aspects of life which are done freely and others that are controlled?
The other point that you brought up about a cumulation of events,
"Not true. You would make a "choice" thinking it was free, but it was the ultimate result of past events cumulating into the present situation."
Past events? In the example which I showed the choice is between right and left, a past event for choosing a side would be favoring right over left or vice versa, are these the "past events" to which you refer.
Finally, I find no flaw to your last point, in fact, I find it rather intriguing. Is it that we only grow because of the vices in this world? That perhaps in heaven there is no growth becuase of eternal happiness? Then again a question may arise over growing past anything after death. However, the thought does come to mind that humans need their chaos to grow and though it is a proven fact (examples of this can be found in wartime situations, specifically the United States during WWII) it is still rather disheartning to hear. That without the imbalances in our lives we would never strive...
firingseeds
Registered Senior Member
to die as an atheist: no thanks, sounds like hell
brrrrrrr
brrrrrrr
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I don't understand what the point is of pondering ones death, what one will think at the point of death, what will happen after...
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!! I mean why spend the living hours wondering about what we literally know absolutely nothing about. In that last second of life we will know whatever we know and then we will know no more.
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!!! I mean why spend the living hours wondering about what we literally know absolutely nothing about. In that last second of life we will know whatever we know and then we will know no more.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
Abdiel-
The past events are everything that molded you into the person at that moment of the choice. I just feel that everything has a cause and effect, thus we might think we are choosing freely, but it is all an illusion, because everything that happens had to happen that way.
Ok.
Good question. I personally think every action is contingent upon past experiences, so I would say that everything is controlled in a sense.
Thanks. I think if we were truely happy, then what reason would we have to change the existing situation to which we live.
Its sad, but wars have always brought forth the most change. Its like we needed a major kick in the ass for us to grow.
The past events are everything that molded you into the person at that moment of the choice. I just feel that everything has a cause and effect, thus we might think we are choosing freely, but it is all an illusion, because everything that happens had to happen that way.
Ok.
Good question. I personally think every action is contingent upon past experiences, so I would say that everything is controlled in a sense.
Thanks. I think if we were truely happy, then what reason would we have to change the existing situation to which we live.
Its sad, but wars have always brought forth the most change. Its like we needed a major kick in the ass for us to grow.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
WesMorris-
I think that some are content with change. Especially if the change appears to be positive.
I think that some are content with change. Especially if the change appears to be positive.
Don't you think to a religious person that makes it inherently important?
Probably none, but if your religious... you'll make it a lot.
Because jesus told us he.. no wait. Was it Muhamed? Shit I can't keep track of it.
Eh, probably correct but smidge presumptuous.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
To Wesmorris: Okay I guess to a religious person death is worth pondering, but I thought their religions gave them the answers to that unknown experience? Heaven or hell depending on good or bad deeds, reincarnation depending on karmic cycle, just a bunch of floating particles for the scientifically inclined...
I mean if everyone accepted the answers they were given by their religions then there would be absolutely nothing to discuss. For those that do not believe the only answer is 'who the hell knows!"
I don't think I was being presumptious. If the second after death a white light sucks me up into some cool dimension then fine, if Peter stops me at the pearly gate then I will join my comrads in the furnace, if Jesus appears asking why did I deny him then I'll just apologize (afterall who knew?), I would ask the Buddha for larger titts and more money in the next incarnation, and if there is nothing then hell what is there to think about...NOTHING!
I mean if everyone accepted the answers they were given by their religions then there would be absolutely nothing to discuss. For those that do not believe the only answer is 'who the hell knows!"
I don't think I was being presumptious. If the second after death a white light sucks me up into some cool dimension then fine, if Peter stops me at the pearly gate then I will join my comrads in the furnace, if Jesus appears asking why did I deny him then I'll just apologize (afterall who knew?), I would ask the Buddha for larger titts and more money in the next incarnation, and if there is nothing then hell what is there to think about...NOTHING!
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Yea well im gonna die an atheist and i dont see a point in asking why i would want 2 die one. I was forced 2 go 2 church for 12 years, i fin dthat its all b/s. ever read the bible? yea basiclly every human on earth is gonna go 2 hell then, unless u sat in a room and didnt move 4 ur entire life. I mean almost all religions have the promise of life after death...havent u noticed thats just because humans r afraid when ur dead theres nothing? and people r afraid of nothing, because u can not begin 2 comprehend it.
Actually the point I was trying to show with this thread, well the reason for it was to see if materialists actually believed in nothingness. That out there, somewhere (over the rainbow? haha) there is something more than humans. Some supreme power which created the human creature and is watching over him.
The thing is that nothingness, actually any after-life, would be impossible for the human creature to comprehend, to which someone pointed out.
In the end I can only state my own personal opinion and hope (pray) that someone may have supported me in it, but I do not think that I have captured anyone into my faith, only I shall agree to disagree with you out there who read this...
The thing is that nothingness, actually any after-life, would be impossible for the human creature to comprehend, to which someone pointed out.
In the end I can only state my own personal opinion and hope (pray) that someone may have supported me in it, but I do not think that I have captured anyone into my faith, only I shall agree to disagree with you out there who read this...
Wes: you stated that in general, an athiest does not believe in an afterlife. I am and I do. So what exactly does that make me. I do not believe there is a supreme divinity of any persuasion but do think that there is something after all this. Lets face it, life is "HELL" so we must go on somewhere "better"?
Just a generalization bro.. I think that just makes you an atheist who believes in an afterlife!
I'm on the fence. The concept of the conservation of energy makes me wonder if there isn't something post-humanity.. but the evidence seems overwhelmingly to the contrary. *shrug*