To die as an atheist

[DarkEyedBeauty]

I am confused, as is everyone else in the world, underneath all of their 'firm' beliefs. How can someone claim to be totally unconfused when nothing is proven?

Anyway, I believe that the soul/mind is self-suffiecient, since my body is the only thing which interacts with it.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DarkEyedBeauty
I am confused, as is everyone else in the world, underneath all of their 'firm' beliefs. How can someone claim to be totally unconfused when nothing is proven?

It's most excellent to acknowledge being confused or not knowing, that's your spring board to knowledge.

Originally posted by DarkEyedBeauty
Anyway, I believe that the soul/mind is self-suffiecient, since my body is the only thing which interacts with it.

Okay, there is a contradiction here. As you mentioned your soul/mind interact with your body and surrounding so they are not self sufficient. For us to feel our mind and our existance, we use our bodies to act our our mind. This is like energy theories...One form of energy converts into another more usefull form of energy. For example, we use water, hydropower to light up the house, how does that happen, potential energy is converted to kinetic energy which is converted to electric energy which is converted to light. Our soul body relationship is very similar. Our soul is this potential energy that by itself can do nothing, but given a tool like a body to convert it, it could act out. The body is the will. I believe when we die, we use the body or the will to be, yet we retain the memory and other elements of the thoughts. The Theistic view of believing in the creator of the universe explains that souls go back to the cosmos and later are judged and rewarded or punished, but too much postulation about the end is of great uncertainty.

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Persol
You only get to experience death once... I want to be awake for it.

Wow, that's a good point. I want to be awake for my death now too.

 

[DarkEyedBeauty]

Originally posted by Flores
Okay, there is a contradiction here. As you mentioned your soul/mind interact with your body and surrounding so they are not self sufficient. For us to feel our mind and our existance, we use our bodies to act our our mind.

Our body is the means through which our mind interacts with the physical world. That does not mean that our mind is tied to our body. When dreaming, our mind is functioning, without our body. We have no proof that our mind is connected only to our bodies.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DarkEyedBeauty
Our body is the means through which our mind interacts with the physical world. That does not mean that our mind is tied to our body. When dreaming, our mind is functioning, without our body. We have no proof that our mind is connected only to our bodies.

True, we have no proof that our mind is connected to our body, just interacting with our body, but the capacity of the mind is diminished without a body, and we have no will in dreams, we can't help or hurt anyone or ourselves. All we can do is to run forward and backward in available memory until the body is ready to translate and act things out for us. That means that the soul and mind is in a state of dependancy, it's alone, but it's dependant.

 

[Jenyar]

...and we have no will in dreams, we can't help or hurt anyone or ourselves

I disagree to an extent. Of course we can't do anything physically, but that's just the thing: we're not limited by our bodies, so we are able to see just what our minds would do if it could. Our will while we are awake has an impact on our will during dreams. In dreams we have no control over what influences our mind, but our reactions are not completely out of our control. We still react predictably.

For instance, when I was young I frequently had dreams where I had to run but was stuck in the same place. But in subsequent dreams was able to "learn" how to run. It's all subconscious - but your life affects your subconscious, and your subconscious affects your dreams. When I am dreaming that I have to kill someone, I'd sooner wake up than go through with it. I don't have it in me.

 

[Abdiel]

DarkEyedBeuty (and anyone, everyone else);

It seems that we are all unexperienced with death (that is, if you believe that you can only die once). Yet most of those who are strongest in their beliefs will never need a formula, or a doctor's approval that God exists.
Those most faithful (specifically what does faith mean to you, to anyone?) see God, nay, not see but feel God in everything and everyone. Divinity can be seen in the artwork of nature, the magice of the world and if their is art, or magic, then there must be an artist or magician. Out of the Big Bang, dust couldn't just have appeared then exploded.
The mind/soul as I shall agree is not directly connected to our bodies, meaning that if our bodies die then our mind shall not die with it, but just like anything else human are you so arrogant to assume that it lives forever without some divine intervention? Unless of course some would look to the inside for some kind of divinity and at that I would most heartily disagree with.
The point is that we are confused about death, but it doesn't mean that we have to fear it's comming. Those of faith look toward their faith, and some have said that all that praying would have been in vain. Yet somehow, some take solace in their praying, in their searching the Heaven's for something eternal and not just shrugging it off with scorn.
In the end we are all dead, what shall matter when it's all over? Well I guess that depends on what you find on the other side...

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
I disagree to an extent. Of course we can't do anything physically, but that's just the thing: we're not limited by our bodies, so we are able to see just what our minds would do if it could. Our will while we are awake has an impact on our will during dreams. In dreams we have no control over what influences our mind, but our reactions are not completely out of our control. We still react predictably.

For instance, when I was young I frequently had dreams where I had to run but was stuck in the same place. But in subsequent dreams was able to "learn" how to run. It's all subconscious - but your life affects your subconscious, and your subconscious affects your dreams. When I am dreaming that I have to kill someone, I'd sooner wake up than go through with it. I don't have it in me.

I don't understand how can you disagree with the notion that we have no will in dreams, everything you said supports that. Dreams are influenced by our lifes, they are the play mode of our subconsious like you said, there is no control on our part in that or we could have forced ourselves to play something in specific. Our mind will play whatever is necessary or weighing it down or pleasing it or whatever to release steam and detangle our thoughts.

The mind by itself can not take action or respond to reaction, you need the body to act out these actions. The mind by itself is like a computer, it contains everything but could do nothing unless you start pushing it's buttons.

 

[Jenyar]

What I'm saying is that it's the other way around: the mind controls the body, and the body is it's only limitation, one that can be overcome in dreams and under hypnosis. People walk over hot coals, bath in boiling water, etc. I'm not just talking about mind over matter. Haven't you ever dreamt you were flying? Does your body stop you from flying? No, gravity does. If you think about something constantly while you are awake, you will dream about it. You will interact with it the same way as you would have while you were awake - and more: some fears and limitations might be suspended, others might appear. It doesn't depend on your body - or any physical limitations - anymore. It is not the lack of will, it's the lack of inhibitions to your will that rules your dreams. As Darkeyedbeauty said: we aren't our bodies.

Abdiel - I agree. By faith we can see a spiritual life, untethered to what we can see or touch, and by the same faith we can see life unburdened by death. Actually death is a good sign that all physical things will end.

 

[Flores]

Jenyar good points.....I think the result or bottom line of both our discussions is similar which is that death is not the final dstruction of man, but just destruction of body and the soul persist.

 

[SnakeLord]

Actually death is a good sign that all physical things will end.

Yes but its also a good sign that all mental things will end aswell. There's nothing to state otherwise, and we will probably just cease to be in every aspect. We've all been there before, so why not again?

 

[Jenyar]

Actually, since God created us we do not come from nothing, but from God. God knew us before we were born (Jer.1:5), and we were created for life, not for death - otherwise God surely wouldn't have bothered... to be "spared life", means to be born dead.

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

Abdiel - I agree. By faith we can see a spiritual life, untethered to what we can see or touch, and by the same faith we can see life unburdened by death.

And if you substitute the word ‘imagination’ instead of ‘faith’ then the statement become rational.

Actually death is a good sign that all physical things will end.

And since the mind is dependent on the brain and the brain is physical then the mind also dies when the body dies.

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

Actually, since God created us we do not come from nothing, but from God. God knew us before we were born (Jer.1:5),

This appears to represent a paradox. If being created and being born is the same thing, then how could God know us before we were created? Or does this mean pre-destination? I.e. God knows us so well because he has designed us to perform exactly as he plans. IOW free will cannot exist.

Or are you saying that we existed in a spirit form before we were born into a physical body? In which case being created would refer to our spirit being created and birth would be our arrival on Earth in a physical form. This of course raises the tremendously tricky issue of when does the spirit enter the physical body.

and we were created for life, not for death - otherwise God surely wouldn't have bothered... to be "spared life", means to be born dead.

So why are so many children born dead? Then why have a hell?

Does creation also mean he designed us? If true then why couldn’t he have made a better design where no one would have needed to die (go to hell)?

Or are we pre-designed and God had no control of our capabilities and was really just the manufacturing plant following a pre-designed unalterable blue-print?

 

[Ectropic]

Originally posted by doom
On my deathbed ill say
"right im either to cease to exist,or theres gonna be an afterlife with god,if its the latter im gonna punch the cunt in the face."

That is an outstanding comment!

 

[Persol]

--- Open Scene: The Fires of Hell ---

Hitler: So what sent you here?
Doom: I punched that cunt in the face.
The Pope: Good show!

--- Fade to Red ---

 

[Abdiel]

Hmmmm...

 

[Abdiel]

I have believed in free will for the longest amount of time and wish to show a simple example behind my rational.


Picture, if you will, a bridge, your standing in the exact center of this bridge. To your right you recognize the intoxicating aromas of food yet from the left comes the same smell, the exact same smell. The point is that to your left and to your right, equal distance apart. The tables to your left and right are covered with exactely the same amount of food, everything is the same. What would you choose? Personally, if there indeed was no free choice you would be stranded in the middle of that bridge for all eternity. Some small trick of our mind would tell us that one side is superior, even though they would be exactely the same. So you would move to that end, no free will? Perhaps you could argue that you were destined to choose one side, well what about when a man humms to himself or a woman kicks up her heels or even makes chewing noises, why do this? Do these habits have any impression at all over the universe, it must be something more, something free...

As for what, contemplating on God's design for us? I content myself with the knowledge that human minds are finite, Gods infinite, thus I couldn't begin to comprehend the whole design let alone imagine some piece of it, yet it is still fun to try. But in this world of lost innocence and vice could we ever really imagine the nothingness in which God thrives? Could we ever comprehend what we are here for? A design of sorts, a world of beauty and on it humans, the only creature distressed about it's position on this planet. A rock is content with being a rock, the human is never content with being a human, however, could that be wha a human is? A creature designed specifically to seek without finding? To ask without realizing that an answer has already befallen us in the question? To know yet to lose that knowledge in our own mortality, especially our mortality for the truth?

 

[Cris]

Flores,

True, we have no proof that our mind is connected to our body, just interacting with our body,

Nonsense. Alter the brain, or damage it or infect it, or submit it to drugs, and the mind changes in direct 1 to 1 correlation. I.e. the mind is the direct product of brain function.

but the capacity of the mind is diminished without a body,

Theoretically you could remove all of the body apart from the brain and you would still have a mind. But once you start cutting away parts of the brain then the mind goes too, i.e. they are one and the same thing.

and we have no will in dreams, we can't help or hurt anyone or ourselves.

When we are sleeping, we have an adaptive mechanism that protects us from ourselves or from injuries to other people. The same mechanisms of the brain stem that controls the sleep processes of the forebrain also inhibit the spinal motor neurons, preventing the descending motor activity from expressing itself as actual movement.

Dreaming, much like drug induced hallucinations occur when the synapses (the connections between neurons), are altered. The synapses use primarily protein to transmit signals between neurons and these proteins tend to be consumed during normal brain function. During sleep and dreaming these stores of protein are replenished and as they are then neurons tend to fire in a fairly random fashion, which you experience as dreams. The same effects can be induced by drugs which also directly change the way the synapses operate.

All we can do is to run forward and backward in available memory until the body is ready to translate and act things out for us.

Total BS.

That means that the soul and mind is in a state of dependancy, it's alone, but it's dependant.

Even more total BS.

 

[Red Devil]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Actually, since God created us we do not come from nothing, but from God. God knew us before we were born (Jer.1:5), and we were created for life, not for death - otherwise God surely wouldn't have bothered... to be "spared life", means to be born dead.

Atoms to atoms, dust to dust. We are stardust, not the creation of a divinity.