Three Experiments Challenging SRT

Third postulate of SRT: transverse scales are absolute.

False. That follows from the first two postulates. There are many possible linear transforms that leave the speed of light invariant, that are all multiples of one another, but only the Lorentz transforms are consistent with the first postulate because they form a symmetry group.


Fourth Postulate SRT: Matter can not travel faster than light.

False. That follows from relativistic mechanics and is generally required to preserve causal relations between events.


Fifth Postulate SRT: Indisputable Prestige of Great Genius of Einstein justifies everything.

False. SRT is also the work of Lorentz, Larmor, and Poincaré, with contributions by Fitzgerald and Voigt.

By the way, one of your many attempts to state the "Masterov transform" looks very similar to the version proposed by Voigt:

Voigt (1887)

In connection with the Doppler effect and an incompressible medium, Voigt (1887)[sup][A 1][/sup] developed a transformation, which was in modern notation:[sup][1][2][/sup]

$$x^{\prime} \,=\, x \,- \,vt,\qquad y^{\prime} \,=\, \frac{y}{\gamma},\qquad z^{\prime} \,=\, \frac{z}{\gamma},\qquad t^{\prime} \,=\, t \,-\, x\frac{v}{c^{2}}$$​

If the right-hand sides of his equations are multiplied by $$\gamma$$ they are the modern Lorentz transformation. In Voigt's theory the speed of light is invariant, but his transformations mix up a relativistic boost together with a rescaling of space-time. Maxwell's electrodynamics is scale, conformal, and Lorentz invariant, so the combination is invariant too. But scale transformations are not a symmetry of all the laws of nature, only of electromagnetism, so these transformations cannot be used to formulate a principle of relativity in general.

Look familiar? Compare with what you wrote [POST=2976170]here[/POST] and [POST=2979042]here[/POST]. Your relations for $$y'$$, $$z'$$, and $$t'$$ are identical to Voigt's.
 
Third postulate of SRT: transverse scales are absolute.
False. That follows from the first two postulates. There are many possible linear transforms that leave the speed of light invariant, that are all multiples of one another, but only the Lorentz transforms are consistent with the first postulate because they form a symmetry group.
Symmetry group?
Hmm. And without it - well, life not like?

Let will be all relativist. (Time - too.)
All!, except the transverse coordinates, if only it was "symmetry group".
You are not funny?
 
Fourth Postulate SRT: Matter can not travel faster than light.
False. That follows from relativistic mechanics and is generally required to preserve causal relations between events.
Transverse Doppler effect also violates the principle of causality.
But it does not bother you.
Why?
=========================

Поперечный эффект Доплера тоже нарушает принцип причинности.
Но вас это не смущает.
Почему?
 
Symmetry group?
Hmm. And without it - well, life not like?

The first postulate of SRT asserts that there is a symmetry in the laws of physics in the transformation between inertial frames. Symmetries must form a group. Do you understand why?
 
By the way, one of your many attempts to state the "Masterov transform" looks very similar to the version proposed by Voigt:
I am sure that the transfer of absoluteness into Time will do relativism simpler and intelligible. Have not need make big changes. The first of us who to do it - will remain in the history of science.
 
I am sure that the transfer of absoluteness into Time will do relativism simpler and intelligible. Have not need make big changes. The first of us who to do it - will remain in the history of science.

It is not possible to have an invariant speed of light with absolute time. Even your/the Voigt transform does not have absolute time:

$$t' \,=\, t \,-\, vx/c^{2} \,.$$​

This is not absolute time. For an observer or clock moving with $$x \,=\, vt$$, the relation between times is $$\mathrm{d}t' \,=\, (1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2}) \, \mathrm{d} t$$. But for an observer or clock at rest, $$\mathrm{d}t \,=\, \mathrm{d}t'$$. So, just like in SRT, you have time dilation factors that are not inverses of one another. This sort of thing is inevitable if you enforce an invariant speed of light.
 
Oh cool, I never knew there was an European space agency. Why haven't they gone to the moon or mars? And why do they pay a physicist to do work for them?

--
And if you had lived my life, you would understand my responsibility to the Federation.

Yep, it's about 40 years old. They've put probes onto Mars and are planning more, though even the one planned for 5~10 years from now will be tiny compared to what NASA just put on Mars. They're doing a new set of rockets now, much like NASA, to try to do more frequent and commercially viable launches of bigger stuff. As for employing a physicist, they have some of the biggest, more complicated problems in all of engineering and physics to consider, they employ armies of physicists, engineers and mathematicians for various things. I don't work for them, I've been doing work for them (if you see the distinction). Name a major area of structural engineering, aerospace or practical physics and they have someone working on something pertaining to it. Still, NASA's budget, man power, technological prowess and accomplishments put us on this side of The Pond to shame, though we're not trying to be direct 'competitors', more a complement and collaborator for the really big stuff.

Rockets need for them no more than a blind man needs a telescope.
They blindly look at the pictures made yourself, spending a lot of money.
Masterov has been claiming, since at least 2008, that there is large amounts of water on Mars and the Moon and that the surface is largely ice, ignoring the known facts of the vapor pressure of ice.
http://forum.neplaneta.ru/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=974
http://forum.sources.ru/index.php?showtopic=286199
Examples:

It's a continent of Mars covered in permafrost and the frozen ocean about-round it.
I called it - "Australia."
Photo not identified, but looks like it was made from space-launched telescope. Scale unknown but it seems smaller that something deserving the name "Australia".

Many an martian steam-geysers of other continent:
Photo not identified, but looks like it was made from heavily processed space-launched telescope. Scale unknown. May be motion-blurred. Not obvious consistent with identification with multiple geysers.

Martian ocean was frozen to the bottom.
A crack of crust of Mars cause to thaw ice and to vaporized water.
This to do Martian canyon.
"Crack" identified as Valles Marineris "Долины Маринер" -- one of the top two best known geological features on Mars. Being 7 km deep, it is not an ice feature. Ice is not rigid enough and Equatorial Mars is not cold enough for this to be ice.

Cracks in Martian-crust made ​​companion of Mars - Deimos.
This event took place at a time when Mars captured this asteroid, and made him his companion.
On what basis do you associate specific surface features with specific satillite?

Phobos was captured about a billion years earlier.
Traces of ancient canyon are visible in this photo too.
Phobos gathered dust and stones Martian rings.
On what basis do you claim Phobos was captured by Mars about one billion years prior to Deimos?

Phobos & Deimos:
Wikipedia image source to non-specifically-identified NASA imagery. Space telescopes again. The largest one is about 10% the width of Valles Marineris.

Tidal waves to move Martian ice.
This is Tractus Catena, a chain of craters on Mars.

http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=22.585899&lon=-103.793139&zoom=8&map=visible
http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/Feature/6074;jsessionid=743C1EE2726E5CCEB7418BA22FC156B5

Now that you've mentioned it, I can see their name on Hubble pictures. Hmm, I'm starting to think maybe that wouldn't be a bad career move to go into this instead of returning to do a PhD. What are you working on, the rockets or the small mars rover?

--*
This is about saving the future of humanity

Oh!
Humanity is threatened?
New Flood?

I know exactly what Earth have floods regularly.
I know the reason, and I am sure that the flood will be happen again.
But I do not know when it will happen.

You know date?

You have confused fiction for reality. LiverOil is quoting lines a character said in movies. A good hint is that this is the same character displayed in the user's profile picture and both quotes are originally in italics.
From Star Trek: First Contact (1996) "Звёздный путь: Первый контакт"
[Lily tries to persuade Picard to self-destruct the Enterprise, but he is defiant.]
Lily Sloane: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your little quest. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale!
Jean-Luc Picard: [offended] What did you say?
Sloane: You do have books in the 24th-century don't you?
Picard: This is not about revenge!
Sloane: Liar!
Picard: [agitated] This is about saving the future of humanity!
Sloane: Jean-Luc, blow up the damn ship!!
Picard: NO! NOOOOOOOOO!!! [smashes a display case in anger; Both pause, shocked] I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far and no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!
Sloane: [looking at the broken remains of the Enterprise-D model] You broke your little ships. [pause] See you around, Ahab.
Picard: [softly, to himself] "And he piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the rage and hate felt by his whole race. If his chest had been a cannon he would have shot his heart upon it."
Sloane: What?
Picard: Moby Dick.
Sloane: Actually, I never read it.
Picard: Ahab spent years hunting the white whale that crippled him; but in the end, it destroyed him and his ship.
Sloane: I guess he didn't know when to quit.
From Star Trek: Nemesis (2002): "Звёздный путь: Возмездие"
Praetor Shinzon: You don't trust me.
Jean-Luc Picard: I have no reason to.
Praetor Shinzon: You have every reason. If you had lived my life, and experienced the suffering of my people, you'd be standing where I am.
Picard: And if you had lived my life, you would understand my responsibility to the Federation.

And when you get back to reality, please remember that the topic of this thread was intended by you to be about Fan's experiment results and a comparison of the scientific strengths of Relativity versus other theories. For that you would have at least to know what a coordinate system was.
 
Sun-spots are result of impact of comets and asteroids.
http://www.astropix.com/IMAGES/G_SUN/SUNSPOTS.JPG
SUNSPOTS.JPG

sun040815-c3-c1.jpg




Jupiter-spots are result of absorptions of planetoids by this planet-giant.
11061001.jpg
 
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Martian ocean was frozen to the bottom.
A crack of crust of Mars cause to thaw ice and to vaporized water.
This to do Martian canyon.
"Crack" identified as Valles Marineris "Долины Маринер" -- one of the top two best known geological features on Mars. Being 7 km deep, it is not an ice feature. Ice is not rigid enough and Equatorial Mars is not cold enough for this to be ice.
It's permafrost. (вечная мерзлота)
 
Oh!
Humanity is threatened?
New Flood?

I know exactly what Earth have floods regularly.
I know the reason, and I am sure that the flood will be happen again.
But I do not know when it will happen.

You know date?
You have confused fiction for reality. LiverOil is quoting lines a character said in movies. A good hint is that this is the same character displayed in the user's profile picture and both quotes are originally in italics.
From Star Trek: First Contact (1996) "Звёздный путь: Первый контакт"
Ah, sorry.

Floods occur regularly, which clearly demonstrates the cleavage of coal: coal alternating with waste rock: each layer of waste rock - a flood.
Наводнения на земле случаются регулярно, что наглядно демонстрирует слоистость каменного угля: уголь чередуется с пустой породой: каждый слой пустой породы – наводнение.
 
Here, Masterov again demonstrates that he hasn't done very much research.
His recent photo essays do seem to support the notion that he feels privileged to make up unevidenced stories and have them respected as the truth. But this feeling, like many of his claims, has no basis in observed reality.

With respect
No one cares about declarations of your respect, until you demonstrate honest debate on the merits of the claims.
your opening remark to Masterov assumes too much without cause.
This is situational irony. Masterov assumes without cause and when he is given cause to assume differently, he ignores it.
Perhaps it is because he has done his research that these questions arise in his mind?
He makes a great deal of distinction between what he calls "real" and "visual" coordinates, but has failed to master the distinction. Thus he has not mastered electromagnetism or relativity. Thus he has not done his research.
Your assuming that he has not is disrespectful
No it's not. It's founded on an evidentiary basis.
and is not conducive to dispassionate scientific discourse of the issues as put;
The question was did Fan's experiments tend to support SR or not. Analysis demonstrated that they supported SR more than Fan's pet theory and were of such poor quality that they could not reject SR.
and you come across as dogmatic rather than scientific in the rest of your post, simply repeating what you have read, without even considering the other possible interpretations of the observed phenomena you mention.
Evidence of phenomena was supplied. Analysis conducted with generalized Galilean transform was consistent with $$K=c^{\tiny -2}$$ and inconsistent with $$K = 0$$ therefore evidence was evidence in favor to time dilation. To argue differently, you must present a specific model which explains not just this evidence but all the precision data we have since 1859 that supports $$K=c^{\tiny -2}$$ and/or the existence of time dilation.
For example:
Hafele–Keating and repetitions, some of which were televised, Pound-Rebka, Ives–Stilwell, Hay-Schiffer-Cranshaw-Egelstaff, the GPS system and various repeats, and indirect evidence from other sources. See http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nphys778 and http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html
(This long post was held up in Moderation limbo for hours -- thanks to staff to leveraging it free.)

For example, all that a true scientist CAN say when observing Muons at different velocities is that Muons at different KINETIC ENERGY (and hence different total internal energy) levels behave differently as to their 'duration' or 'life' time before decaying to other particles of lesser total energy levels. And that's it. Anything further is just INTERPRETATION based on assumptions made.
Except science has the principle of parsimony. All muons share the properties of intrinsic angular momentum, electric charge, decay products, and $$E^2 - c^2 \vec{p}^2$$ so all muons, no matter their velocity in the lab are modeled as identical. Not only is this conclusion the parsimonious one supported by the data but it correctly predicts the outcome of experiments with muonic atoms -- all muons are identical in a way that is special to quantum physics. Further, since the only differences between muons at different kinetic energies is that they have different velocities in the lab, and they have a different decay rate this is equivalent to saying that time dilation of the muon decay constant is the most parsimonious model. When combined with all other data, however, special relativity is the most parsimonious answer for phenomena where gravity is negligible since it correctly accounts for time dilation of muons and atomic clocks and consistency of the speed of light, for the velocity-kinetic energy curve, etc. Did you miss the discussion about Fan and Bertozzi?

For example, I can make the perfectly reasonable ASSUMPTION
The more assumptions you make the more you violate parsimony and the more work you have to do to demonstrate that your model is self-consistent. For example, you haven't explained how a particle is supposed to know in which frame its kinetic energy is measured in, since its velocity is different in different frames and you were assuming its internal state (frame independent) was a function of its kinetic energy (frame dependent). Your "perfect reason" leaves much to be desired.

Less dogmatic/assumptive and more respectful replies to others will assist in good dispassionate scientific discourse; and not just in this thread. Thanks.
I invite the moderators to explain why one should respect the posts of the uninformed bloviators over the posts of the informed and honest explainers. It's not an exercise of dogma to explain what a scientific theory says and does not say.

The differences are self-evident in the assumptions as put, so no further comment on that is needed.
Pareidolia -- if you think particular word salad is meaningful then it is meaningful to you and doesn't need to be explained. But it doesn't meet the standard for scientific communication.

I'll add to the above:
I'm doing a good-job, even if I am wrong.
I don't believe the evidence supports that claim.
Our concepts of reality are covered with mold and scab misconceptions, if not shaken.
But you aren't shaking our concepts of reality. You are simply completely misunderstanding every aspect of our concepts of reality and ignoring evidence in support of our position.

Well whoppy ****in' do, can you do anything more than arm wave? No.
I believe the American spelling of "whoop-de-doo" takes precedence. But spot on usage and you inserted the gerund at the correct point for emphasis.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whoop-de-doo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis
 
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Here, Masterov again demonstrates that he hasn't done very much research.
His recent photo essays do seem to support the notion that he feels privileged to make up unevidenced stories and have them respected as the truth. But this feeling, like many of his claims, has no basis in observed reality.
The SRT has basis in observed reality?

Above it was shown that SRT has no both theoretical or experimental grounds regarded as a scientific theory.

SRT is a PR-project, which functioned as a scientific theory only through the efforts of centuries PRasts.
=========================

Выше было доказано, что SRT не имеет ни теоретических, ни экспериментальный оснований считаться научной теорией.

SRT является PR-проектом, который просуществовал в качестве научной теории столет исключительно благодаря усилиям пиарастов.
 
your opening remark to Masterov assumes too much without cause.
This is situational irony. Masterov assumes without cause and when he is given cause to assume differently, he ignores it.
Oh!

I remind you of questions which you to answer not wanted:

уou argue that the physical properties of matter are change by acceleration, and it leads to slower time?

1. What are these physical properties of matter. Name it.

2. Assume that the acceleration can result to time dilation.
One would assume that the braking do time acceleration.
But braking is no different from the acceleration.
The difference has in the direction and in the terminology.

If the acceleration do time dilation, then what do time-acceleration, to return time to its original state?
------------------------------

To not answer simple and distinct issues (which you have no answer), you write a silly math, which does not make any sense.
 
Perhaps it is because he has done his research that these questions arise in his mind?
He makes a great deal of distinction between what he calls "real" and "visual" coordinates, but has failed to master the distinction. Thus he has not mastered electromagnetism or relativity. Thus he has not done his research.
I repeat:

Real coordinates can be obtained by double-integration (by time) of the acceleration. (Acceleration is absolute and can be measured.)

Visual coordinates, these are manipulated by the Lorentz transformation.
 
Hi rpenner.

You sure like to post reams of personal/irrelevant commentary, don't you? Give it a rest.

As to the rest:

In my reply example to arfa brane about assumptions affecting possible interpretations of the Muon lifetime/distance contraction scenario, you imply that I was the one making too many assumptions.

Not so. In fact I clearly pointed out that NO assumptions from me were necessary, since the non-linearity of process does exist and is directly observed/measured in reality; and also that quantum internal/total energy states are observed without needing SR assumptions to see that they exist and are measurables as appropriate in the experimental/observational construct.

Now you can see I trust that it is in fact YOU and SR that makes all the assumptions in 'geometry' and 'relativity' interpretations of phenomena which I exampled as being possible of different 'take' from SR without needing to make the assumptions of 'time dilation' and 'space distance contraction' interpretations of the same Muon phenomena.

You turned all that completely round with sophistry and preconclusionary/personal attitude rather than just sticking to what was clearly put as NOT needing the assumptions which SR needed to make the Muon 'interpretations' it does. Way to go.

And your calculations in hyperbolic geometry and non-real co-ordinate frames etc still do not answer Masterov's questions as put. You seem to want to frame things your way so you can post reams and reams of equations which do not actually address what was asked by Masterov. Are you trying to bury this discussion in your 'preferred frame' full of beside-the-point reams of maths not to the point?

And since when do you have the right to question my intent/meaning when I say to arfa brane "with respect" and to przyk and others "Thanks, you've been very helpful". Unlike you (you have a history elsewhere of lying and libeling and personal/cynical/recreational abuse of moderator power), I mean what I say; and try to keep to the point of the discussion without all your kind of personal/unconscionable sideplay from a position of 'insider' against a vulnerable ordinary member. Pull your head in and leave out all that voluminously worded garbage which does not stick to the point/question as put. Stop accusing others of being personal/insincere etc when it is you that have demonstrated that propensity. Hypocrisy, evasion and irrelevant sophistry (mathematical or otherwise) is even more egregious when dressed up as 'authority'. Thanks in anticipation for your future co-operation in this area.
 
Further, since the only differences between muons at different kinetic energies is that they have different velocities in the lab, and they have a different decay rate this is equivalent to saying that time dilation of the muon decay constant is the most parsimonious model.
You did not measure the speed and time.
You measured only the distance that you divided on light speed .
So you get the time.
By the time you define the energy formula SRT.
 
Our concepts of reality are covered with mold and scab misconceptions, if not shaken.
But you aren't shaking our concepts of reality. You are simply completely misunderstanding every aspect of our concepts of reality and ignoring evidence in support of our position.
This may mean that your idea about the world is a set of dogmas of the religious fanatic who is able to think only in the context of religious doctrines.
Mustiness and scab destroyed in you a scientist.

My questions that put you into a dead end, did not change anything in you.
This is a very bad sign.
You have ceased to believe common sense.
You believe in the dogma.
 
@rpenner - In one of your posts a day or two ago, and in response to my earlier comment on civility, you said to me "How am I doing" or similar.

Well, I think you're doing great, and you are showing considerable patience and tolerance.

Masterov has been asking one main set of questions, and it does not seem that I've read a response to them, without the usual deference to the party line, as it were. Those questions from what I see, are encompassed in his post #814.

I've been looking forward to seeing a response to those, on the terms they are put, and without more complication, which would, of course, go straight over my head and then some. So if you think it worthwhile, please deign to have a go.

@Masterov - I'm not sure what the point of the astronomical pics are, other than to detract from the OP, and to make you look like diverting.
 
Oh, and another thing Masterov - your continued use of insulting adjectives .. 'scab, mustiness', etc, is not conducive to factual responses. Rather, it probably makes others feel like responding in kind. Is that your motive ? If not, translation difficulties notwithstanding, you should strive to elicit subject reponses rather than insults.
 
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