Three Experiments Challenging SRT

Do not rush to write formulas

The equations of SRT are of utmost relevance when discussing the predictions of SRT. The definitive statement of what SRT predicts is the Lorentz transformation. If something is not predicted by the Lorentz transformation, it is not predicted by SRT.


Answer the question: What are we going to have: the double time-dilation or the time-dilation+acceleration?

The second. The traveller's time returns to the normal rate. That is the only prediction SRT makes because it is the only prediction the Lorentz transformation makes.


If you state that the traveler will return the normal time, then explain us: why you replaced second time-dilation to time-acceleration?

Simple. The way time dilation is usually described, the time dilation factor in a reference frame is given by $$\gamma(v) \,=\, 1 / \sqrt{1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2}}$$ [sup]*[/sup]. If $$v = 0$$ then $$\gamma(0) \,=\, 1$$.

You are asking why the time dilation factor is not $$\gamma(v)^{2}$$. The answer is that there is no way to derive this result in SRT. Time dilation factors do not multiply in SRT. As I explained, if observer B is time dilated by a factor $$\gamma$$ compared with observer A, and observer C is time dilated by a factor $$\gamma'$$ compared with observer B, then in general C is not time dilated by the factor $$\gamma \gamma'$$ compared with A. That logic only works if simultaneity is absolute, which it is not in SRT.

You are acting as if the full relation between time coordinates in SRT was given by $$t' \,=\, t/\gamma$$. In SRT it is not. The full relation is $$t' \,=\, \gamma(t \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} x)$$. The $$- vx/c^{2}$$ term describes relativity of simultaneity and has the effect that time dilation factors do not multiply in SRT. You find this when you multiply successive Lorentz transformations together, as I suggested you do in [POST=2976278]post #499[/POST]. As I said, the Lorentz transformation is the definitive statement on what SRT predicts, and if you get a result that contradicts the Lorentz transformation, then it is not predicted by SRT.


[sup]*[/sup]The way time dilation is usually described can be a bit confusing, because the relation between time coordinates is the opposite of the time dilation factor: $$t' \,=\, t / \gamma$$. Time dilation means that the time of the moving observer increases more slowly than time in the reference frame at "rest".
 
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OK

If a descendant of the traveler go back to the planet of his ancestor, then his time get the time-dilation or the time-acceleration? What?

If the traveler returns to the planet with his descendant together?
 
The difference in the rates of time for two observers depends on the relative velocities of the observers. It's not that hard to understand.
When a traveler reaches one of the planets they age at the same rate as everyone else on that planet.
While traveling, the traveler believes he/she is aging at the same rate they always have, and that people on either planet are aging more quickly (time is accelerated for them). The people on either planet believe the traveler is aging more slowly than they are.

Given that Masterov seems to be puzzled by this, why should anyone believe he can challenge SRT? He doesn't even understand time dilation.
 
OK

If a descendant of the traveler go back to the planet of his ancestor, then his time get the time-dilation or the time-acceleration? What?

His time advances at the normal rate compared with the first planet and he is time-dilated compared with the second planet.

Being time-dilated compared with the second planet doesn't mean he will be double-time-dilated on the first planet. The relation between times in different reference frames isn't that simple in SRT, and time dilation doesn't work that way.
 
His time advances at the normal rate compared with the first planet and he is time-dilated compared with the second planet.

Being time-dilated compared with the second planet doesn't mean he will be double-time-dilated on the first planet. The relation between times in different reference frames isn't that simple in SRT, and time dilation doesn't work that way.

Hi. Been following this thread with great interest - not that I know much about SRT, but Masterov's posts are fascinating.

If, as in his example, td doesn't work that way, how does it ?
 
If, as in his example, td doesn't work that way, how does it ?
Short answer: Time dilation isn't about changing time -- it's about relabeling the coordinates of events to change how much the T-coordinate changes in a way analogous to how a rotation of coordinate axes changes how wide an object is in the X-direction. As it is akin to a rotation of the coordinates, nothing about the universe or objects in the universe change -- only the standard of rest and the "direction" of the T-coordinate.

Example: Diagonal line from (11,12) to (14,18) in the x-y plane has a length in the x direction of $$\Delta x = 14 - 11 = 3$$ (also $$\Delta y = 6$$).
If we rotate via $$\begin{pmatrix} \Delta x' \\ \Delta y' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{4}{5} & \frac{3}{5} \\ - \frac{3}{5} & \frac{4}{5} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} \Delta x \\ \Delta y \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{4}{5} & \frac{3}{5} \\ - \frac{3}{5} & \frac{4}{5} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} 3 \\ 6 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 6 \\ 3 \end{pmatrix}$$
The fact that $$6 = \Delta x' > \Delta x = 3$$ doesn't mean that the line has changed -- only the direction of the x axis is different than the direction of the x' axis. This is ordinary (Euclidean) rotation of coordinate axes. It is no accident that the Euclidean length is the same in both coordinate systems, because all Euclidean rotations preserve the length (or the square of the length): $$(\Delta x')^2 + (\Delta y')^2 = (\Delta x)^2 + (\Delta y)^2$$. Comparing extent in the x direction with the extent in the x' direction is a case of apples and oranges.

Two Examples of Hyperbolic rotation: A body moves from x = 5 at time t=10 to x = 2 at time t = 16 in coordinate system S. Thus $$\Delta x = -3, \; \Delta t = 6$$. For coordinate system S' we calculate:
$$\begin{pmatrix} \Delta x' \\ \Delta t' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{5}{3} & \frac{4}{3} \\ \frac{4}{3} & \frac{5}{3} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} \Delta x \\ \Delta t \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{5}{3} & \frac{4}{3} \\ \frac{4}{3} & \frac{5}{3} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} -3 \\ 6 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 3 \\ 6 \end{pmatrix}$$

A different body moves from x = 4 at time t=0 to x = 8 at time t = 16 in coordinate system S. Thus $$\Delta x = 4, \; \Delta t = 16$$. For coordinate system S' we calculate:
$$\begin{pmatrix} \Delta x' \\ \Delta t' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{5}{3} & \frac{4}{3} \\ \frac{4}{3} & \frac{5}{3} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} \Delta x \\ \Delta t \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{5}{3} & \frac{4}{3} \\ \frac{4}{3} & \frac{5}{3} \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} 4 \\ 16 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 28 \\ 32 \end{pmatrix}$$

In both cases : $$(\Delta x')^2 - (\Delta t')^2 = (\Delta x)^2 - (\Delta t)^2$$ and this, too, is no accident.

I had previously put up a long answer but it was lost in the 30 hours of database loss we recently had.
 
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If a descendant of the traveler go back to the planet of his ancestor, then his time get the time-dilation or the time-acceleration? What?
His time advances at the normal rate compared with the first planet and he is time-dilated compared with the second planet.
You state that: starting from the first planet, traveler has time dilation.

You state that: starting from the second planet, the traveler has time-acceleration.

I understand you correctly?

But both planets are the same, no difference.
Whence you get this difference?
 
It doesn't matter if both planets are "the same", what matters is the traveler has a velocity relative to either planet while traveling between them.
While traveling, the traveler ages less than the people on either planet do.
 
Being time-dilated compared with the second planet doesn't mean he will be double-time-dilated on the first planet. The relation between times in different reference frames isn't that simple in SRT, and time dilation doesn't work that way.
You to do intrigue to me as to do it a priest, which has decided to tell about the trinity of God.

What you write is not the opinion of the scientist.
What you write is totally ludicrous of a religious fanatic, who had long abandoned his common sense, and like a parrot repeating a memorized mantras in a state of religious ecstasy.
 
If, as in his example, td doesn't work that way, how does it ?
1. Time and velocity of light is absoluteness.

2. Two types of coordinates exist: real and visible.
We see the stars and galaxies into the visual coordinates.
All relativistic effects are visual.
Relativism changes the visual-size of an object only.
The physical dimensions of objects are absolute.

Physical size and coordinates are identical when the speed of light can consider infinitely large (at close distances and slow dynamics).

3. Acceleration and forces are an absolutes for all inertial reference frames.
Acceleration can be measured by the load-and-spring or pendulum (load-and-thread).
Physical coordinates can be calculated by used double-integration of the acceleration into time.

4. In physical coordinates are true Galilean transformation.

5. Speed ​​limit of Matter does not exist, but Matter that moves faster than light, no longer interact with the stationary matter (with fields of it). Matter, which moves faster than light, no longer interact with the fields, the source of which is stationary.
Matter that moves faster than light, is called - the neutrino.

6. ...
 
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It doesn't matter if both planets are "the same", what matters is the traveler has a velocity relative to either planet while traveling between them.
Planets scatter (disperse) from one another, so the speed of the traveller (in relation to one of the two planets) exists always.
 
Masterov said:
Planets scatter (disperse) from one another, so the speed of the traveller (in relation to one of the two planets) exists always.
Since the traveler is moving from one planet to the other, they must have a speed greater than the planets do relative to each other.
 
Planets scatter (disperse) from one another, so the speed of the traveller (in relation to one of the two planets) exists always.
Since the traveler is moving from one planet to the other, they must have a speed greater than the planets do relative to each other.
So what?

Not in the problem.

When the traveler moves from one planet to another planet: its time is accelerating relatively to time on the same planet and is slowing relatively to time on another planet.

Think again: the time of traveler accelerates and decelerates concurrently.

How is this possible?
 
Masterov said:
When the traveler moves from one planet to another planet: its time is accelerating relatively to time on the same planet and is slowing relatively to time on another planet.
Not so. If the traveler's speed through space is greater than either planet, they will age less than the people on either planet.
But one planet moves away from the traveler, the other moves towards the traveler (from the traveler's perspective). According to the traveler, then, one planet is moving away at a speed greater than the other.
 
Not so. If the traveler's speed through space is greater than either planet, they will age less than the people on either planet.
But one planet moves away from the traveler, the other moves towards the traveler (from the traveler's perspective). According to the traveler, then, one planet is moving away at a speed greater than the other.
Not so?

You want me to believe in what you are - a stupid?
Or you are relying on the fact that I am a stupid?
 
If, as in his example, td doesn't work that way, how does it ?

1. Time and velocity of light is absoluteness......

Lakon, Masterov is mistaken and stuck, like a broken record.

We can create puzzles in SRT that become very complex, and which at times involve real or apparent paradoxes... To understand time dilation that kind of complex puzzle is not necessary. Don't get me wrong SRT is about a great deal more than just time dilation and some of the concepts and principles do become more complex, but that is not the key issue here.

We know that if we put an accurate clock on an airplane and fly it around, when the plane lands it will have recorded less time passing than an identical clock which remained at the airport. This has been done and does happen. The clock that is moving in the plane "ticks" at a slower rate than the clock that remains stationary at the airport.

We also know that when the plane does land and the two clocks are put back side by side, even though they will not agree on how long the plane has been flying around, they will from that point, or time on.., "tick" once again at the same rate.

The velocity that a clock is moving at, affects the rate at which it "ticks" or records change, when compared to a clock that is not moving, relative to it. That is time dilation.

Clocks are our rulers for measuring change and the observation of change, we call time. Change "looks" different to us based on how fast we are moving. Time or the rate at which change occurs is frame dependent. It depends on the observer and how the observer is moving relative to the events being observed.

SRT takes this and projects it far further than the case of clocks in airplanes. Those projections and predictions of what happens to clocks at far greater relativistic velocities, is supported by experience.., this time experience associated with research involving particle accelerators, like the LHC.

Is there some underlying fixed rate for time? Perhaps, but it is not something the we could ever observer, because we can only "see" things as they are from where we are and the way, order and rate of change that we observe is entirely dependent on from where we observe it. So SRT goes another step further and gives us the tools, the mathematics, to project what we see from where we are and how we are moving, in a way that we can understand what someone else would see from where they are and how they are moving.

It is within the proper application of those transformations, the math, that most of the apparent paradoxes arise. I say apparent because most of the time they only appear to be paradoxical.

Getting back to time dilation, all you need to understand, to understand the basics of time dilation, is that we measure time or change with clocks and clocks show us that when they move the rate that change occurs at, changes. It slows down the faster the clock moves. — this much has been proven both with clocks in airplanes and through experiments conducted with particle accelerators.., like the LHC.
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Masterov, I cannot always understand exactly what you are trying to say, but it does not seem to me that you really understand SRT.

Masterov said:
2. Two types of coordinates exist: real and visible.

Coordinate systems are tools, which help us understand, sometimes different aspects of the world and the universe. There are far more than just two and all of them are nothing more than "best approximations" of what we "see" or observe. A 3D + time coordinate system and a 4D coordinate system representing spacetime, both describe the same thing in different ways, the would around us.

Masterov said:
5. Speed ​​limit of Matter does not exist, ...

This is an unsupported assumption. Something you think is true without any evidence to support it.

If we include in our definition of matter protons and the nuclei of gold and lead atoms, the evidence does support a speed limit for matter. This much seems pretty clear from experiments conducted in particle accelerators.

Masterov said:
Matter that moves faster than light, is called - the neutrino.

Here it seems you have not kept up with the evidence. You seem to be referring to the OPERA experiment from late 2011.., which has since been proven to have been an equipment timing error.., a loose fiber optic connection...

Neutrinos do not appear to exceed the speed of light.
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Time is a subjective observation of change, meaning observer dependent, observation of the rate of change, which appears from experience to be affected by the velocity of the observer and his/her clock. The clock being the ruler used to measure the rate of change. The FACT that clocks run slower when they are moving than when at (relative) rest, is what we call time dilation.
 
We know that if we put an accurate clock on an airplane and fly it around, when the plane lands it will have recorded less time passing than an identical clock which remained at the airport.
Its "white lie" of SRT.

In this experiment had too many factors that can influence the course of clocks, and chief among them - vibration.

Much easier and safer to place the clock on the equator, and (for example) in London.
Linear speed of rotation relative to Earth's axis the hundreds of miles an hour, and there is no vibration, and time is not limited by the amount of fuel tanks.

If it is proven that the clocks of equator is slower than it of London, it will give a reason to think that the SRT is telling the truth.
 
Masterov, I cannot always understand exactly what you are trying to say, but it does not seem to me that you really understand SRT.
Oh... Yes! I do not understand SRT.

But I'm not alone.
SRT nobody understands.
No one can explain a simple thing: SRT time is speeding up and slowing down at the same time.

How can you climb the mountain, moving down?

You know how?

Tell us: How do you do it?
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Но я тут не одинок.
SRT никто не понимает.
Нет человека, который понимает SRT.

Никто не может объяснить простую вещь: в SRT время ускоряется и замедляется одновременно.

Как можно подниматься в гору, спускаясь вниз?

Вы так умеете?

Расскажите: как вы это делаете?
 
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