There was no Sun worship

[Pandaemoni]

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

You also say:

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti.

Since there are a variety of religions that worship invisible or at least unseen beings, and a few that worship no specific beings but merely revere particular concepts, I'm going to have to disagree. They can't *all* be right, so someone is worshipping something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, because it's a fiction.

 

[RoyLennigan]

First we need to cosider the fact that without the Sun there would be no life, this is a simple fact of nature. However, this can be said about many things such as water, throughout human history we have always been very aware of this. Yet we dont claim that water was once worshipped, for anyone to say 'Sun, Sun why have you forsaken me' at the moment of death is far fetched and would indicate very low IQ. As a matter of fact it is hard to believe a human under any circumstances would say such a thing. It is like looking at an egg and saying 'why have you forsaken me'.

First of all, let me say that I don't agree with the inferences made by medicine woman about which this thread was made for. But that is more because I have no opinion on that matter.

But I do know that in nearly any primitive religion you would find that the people worshipped the elements of earth, water, wind and fire. These elements were most likely transformed by oral tradition into gods of a human likeness. The sun has always been a mysterious and awe-inspiring aspect of our time on this planet and we have been entranced by it since before we were human.

Before we learned to talk, we knew that when the sun went down, danger roamed. And when the sun came up, we were able to see and hunt and survive. Anytime that there is no sun is always a more dangerous time. This would logically and historically lead to the worship of the sun as one of, if not the first "god".

I can imagine numerous situations in which a man would say, "sun, why have you forsaken me?". But it is more likely that the words mean exactly what most think they mean: "God, why have you forsaken me?" There are many similarities between words among the ancient languages and some of them are coincidence, some are not. Also, there is the question of whether or not this actually happened, and if it did, then whether or not those were the very words spoken. Chances indicate one or both to be false.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.

As I am sure you are coming to understand, your original comments here proved to be inaccurate. Now that you have rephrased them, lets argue that point in the hopes that you have humbly learned your mistake.

In admission that people have worshipped the sun, you now claim that:

As far as i know at the very core all religous belief is based on a creator. The sun being worthy of worship, water, wind, the Earth, the planets. The Sun is just so obvious and was more of an attribute of the creator/s or maybe even a metaphor. To say that these ancient religions were entirely based on the Sun is not realistic.

It is not enough to say that early tribes based their religion upon the sun. One must go so far as to say that early man based his entire life upon the sun. The sun provided warmth, provided light, provided life. It is not so hard to notice that the plants which provide food for all living things requires light to survive. In Africa, the supposed birthground for humanity, man knew that night, the lack of sun, brought predators such as lions. In the day, he could see all, but in the night he was afraid.

The simple difference between night and day seemed enough to cause many people to worship the sun.

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.

Try us...

 

[BlueMoose]

Try us...

Good one

 

[Avatar]

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.

Now something may be fully accepted as truth out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken.
Again, something may be fullly approved of ... well transmitted ... well cogitated ... well pondered, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well pondered, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. [Under these conditions] it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: "Only this is true, anything else is wrong."

Gautama Buddha (from MN 95: Canki Sutta; II 168-77)

 

[velcro]

Hey, ...Id go for the Sun over any of your Gods (face it - made in your own image). Or maybe id go for the Northern Lights? Those Aurora Warriors take some beating. Worship them. The Earth version has been manifesting itself as long as the Earth has. They'll tell you precisely whats going on with magnetic fields + sun if youve got the scientific ability to see it.

 

[Michael]

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever,

:bugeye:

yeah tell it to a Christian or Muslim etc...

 

[Odin'Izm]

There is no Fire god, Earth god, etc in Zoroastrism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Maybe not seperate god's but versions of the creator. all three are considered sacred.

"The symbol of fire: The energy of the creator is represented in Zoroastrianism by fire and the sun which are both enduring, radiant, pure and life sustaining. Zoroastrians usually pray in front of some form of fire (or any source of light). (It is important to note that fire is not worshipped by Zoroastrians, but is used simply as symbol and a point of focus, much like the crucifix in Christianity."

"Death and burial: Religious rituals related to death are all concerned with the person's soul and not the body. Zoroastrians believe that on the fourth day after death, the human soul leaves the body and the body remains as an empty shell. Traditionally, Zoroastrians disposed of their dead by leaving them atop open-topped enclosures, called Towers of Silence, or Dokhmas. Vultures and the weather would clean the flesh off the bones, which were then placed into an ossuary at the center of the Tower. Fire and Earth were considered too sacred for the dead to be placed in them. While this practice is continued in India by some Parsis, it had ended by the beginning of the twentieth century in Iran. In India, burial and cremation are becoming increasingly popular alternatives."

 

[river-wind]

Your caption is - guess Who? I dont know, why dont you tell us. Is it Copyright 2005? you probably dont even know.

It's Orpheus. From at least 500 years BC.

And to give you a clue, Jesus can certainly have similarities to others - WHY? Because there is the possibility of numerous manifestations. POSS IB BILL IT TEEEEE.

So either you agree with Justin Martyr and think that Satan implanted all the Jesus imitators before Jesus as a sort of pre-emptive copycatting, or you are suggesting that Jesus was not actually special; not the one and only true son of god, but one of a few other individual humans who could also rightfully claim that title.

I'm not so sure you want to go down that path...

 

[BlueMoose]

I do know that many ancient people were more intelligent than modern ones, this is proven repeatedly AND it is also becoming clear that no modern religion should use anything that uses the SUN as a symbol in any way so as to not be taken out of context....ooooh that is the SUN, Billy. This would be funny if it were not so sad. The fact is that i worry about our civilization and how it embraces ignorance.

-Tell that to hundreds of millions of Christians whom are waiting the apocalypse and the world to end. ! . All they are waiting in that sense is that is entering the age/era/aeon of Aquarius, it was mistranslation which molded the concept of the world to end: "And I will be with you to end of the Aeon/Age ~ world, meaning I will be with you to end of Age Of Piscies (1AD - 2150AD)

 

[Atom]

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

Are you mad?

Not only the Sun but the Moon.

And even the Stars...why do you think the Pyramids were built.

Even so that qualifies for silliest thread of the year so far...even though I've only been here a month, I cant believe theres a sillier thread.

 

[river-wind]

There was the thread that explained why pterodactyls could fly: the spherical ice shield that surrounded the earth pre-biblical flood kept the air trapped closely to the land/ocean surface. This increased the density of the air, allowing such large beasts the lift needed for flight. When god made the earth flood, he melted the ice shield (which rained down very quickly) drowning everything. Afterwards, the increased solar radiation (due to the now-missing ice protection) and the significantly less-dense air killed any remaining stragglers (except Noah's brood and the animals held in the apparently pressurized cabin of the ark).

Oh, and the reason why fossils are in a seemingly time-related order is because they sorted themselves in the flood's vertical water column by their own densities - the result being that populations of the same creature world-wide ended up in the same layer.

That one was interesting.

 

[John99]

RoyLennigan, excellent post. I think much has been taken out of context though.

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

You also say:



Since there are a variety of religions that worship invisible or at least unseen beings, and a few that worship no specific beings but merely revere particular concepts, I'm going to have to disagree. They can't *all* be right, so someone is worshipping something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, because it's a fiction.

Are you mad?

Not only the Sun but the Moon.

And even the Stars...why do you think the Pyramids were built.

Even so that qualifies for silliest thread of the year so far...even though I've only been here a month, I cant believe theres a sillier thread.

Obviously you have not read this entire thread or the one that preceeded it. I did not start this thread but it is fine with me that it is here.

My initial intention (in the first thread) was to answer M*W's observation that a man, Jesus Christ or any person hanging from a cross, would ask the Sun why it had forsaken him- I am pretty sure that is what she had implied. Whatever did happen and what was actually said can be debated, this does not change the fact that it is far fetched to believe that a person at that time would make a statement like that unless they had the intelligence of a child.

Intent plays a big part of this thread, often times it is inferered that if people worshipped the Sun GOD\CREATOR (implied) it is equally ridiculous to worship any god because we all know now that the Sun is not a god and we would NOT attribute it with CREATION. My response is that this was NEVER the case.

Sun gods, water gods, fish gods do not matter, the point is weather the Sun was viewed as the creator of life - not if the sun was an attribute, like everything else we live with, of a supreme being or entity. So the answer to this is 'they saw the sun make their crops grow...' but as i have stated before they also saw their children being born in the dead of night so they would know the sun was NOT a direct requirement for life, it sustains life but so does eating and many other things. Read the whole thread and this becomes clearer. Sure without it there would be no life, no life equals death but that can be said about any requirement of living organisms. So what are we left with? The god of fish? Now it is obviously assumed that these people knew for a fact if the sun did stop generating heat (glowing) that life would stop, we know this now and what enormous effect it would have but was this always known? As a matter of fact, I would think that primitive people may have thought they can live without it, just in darkness. If we are going to make assumptions then why wouldn't we assume that primitive people senn that they can hunt at night, they can reproduce at night etc. so maybe it would be cooler but not the end of the world if it was no longer there.

Also it has been said (by a minority)that all religions are derived directly from sun worship, i have shown this to not be the case and maybe you would see that if you had read the thread.

People can worship a coke bottle, big f'ing deal, people CAN worship the sun in a way to look up and say 'please, please let my crops grow, but it is a mistake to assume that it was ever viewed as an entity solely responsible for creation of the planets, the stars, the moon and all life. If you have proof that this was the case then come up with it now or keep you comments to yourself. I can insult many people in a big way, but i am not going to do that because what would be the point.

Amaterasu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu

http://images.google.com/images?q=A...TF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

All this does is prove my point, which is exactly what i intended to do by making the initial statement. I just see too many people making assumptions that do not logically seem accurate. Using Amaterasu as an example and from everything i have seen so far there was always human attributes added, given that information we can assume that ancient people fully believed there was something more, something not seen- A SUPREME BEING - NOT THE SUN but one who CREATED THE SUN.

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

For the last time, the sun was viewed as a magnificent attribute, a miracle and proof of GOD. As far as the Japanese flag, it looks cool and is easily copied.

What you have to do know is prove i am wrong. That is all, should be easy, i have seen just as much data as anyone else here and it is a matter of what we have been led to believe with alot of stuff added after the fact that can very well not be accurate at all.

Here are your sun gods:

http://images.google.com/images?q=s...TF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=sun gods&FORM=BIRE

Do you see a common theme?

 

[Pandaemoni]

My understanding (though I am not a follower of the Shinto religion, so might be wrong) is that Amaterasu did not create the Sun, she *is* the Sun. That's why when Amaterasu sealed herself in a cave (as indicated in your wikipedia link) the world was plunged into darkness--the Sun was gone.

If your point is that people never worshipped the Sun without anthropomorphizing it, you may be right (after all we do that with weather all the time, and we don't worship it), but to say that people worshipping while anthropomorphing the Sun is different that merely worshipping it is semantics, not a substantial argument.

 

[Avatar]

To my mind John has been proven to be wrong some time ago now.
At least he is in my mind.
What he thinks in his, is his personal matter, but I don't think that any argument can make him think otherwise, and I don't really care.

 

[John99]

The human form is so recognizable to us that we can see even the slightest error, these are errors but not natural imperfections. Even the greatest works of art that depict facial features in any realistic way we can often see things that are just not right. The imperfections, the symetry, never perfect but distinct. It is these imperfections that are hardest to capture and elude even the greatest artists. The point is that there has always been a human figure or an approximation as the main source of worship, it is what we identify with the most. That has never changed and most likely never will.

I beleive they (Shinto) worshipped the physical manifestaion and the sun was metaphorical. If i am wrong, well no one is perfect.

 

[John99]

To my mind John has been proven to be wrong some time ago now.
At least he is in my mind.
What he thinks in his, is his personal matter, but I don't think that any argument can make him think otherwise, and I don't really care.

You have to admit i am doing a good job.

 

[Roman]

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

As opposed to worshipping a Golden Calf? Or an old dude with a beard who lives in the clouds?

 

[BlueMoose]

Couple of questions to you John99 if you dont mind.

-Are you trying to say that when they worshipped sun they transfered Gods qualities to sun knowing that the sun wasnt the real God ? Is that it ?
-Or was the sun just a minor God but still they prefer to worship it leaving the superior God without attention ?

-And if that is the case why they did so ?

-Lets say they did it in that way, can you give us some example of that ?

You mean it like now when we worship Jesus to be God knowing that he really isnt the real God ? Or does that mean that Jesus wasnt real God, just some dude to worship as son of God but not quite a God ? Or Jesus was just like one of us ?
Confusing, to say at least ?

I think Islam is on to something when forbidding to make any images of God

 

[John99]

This is really something. I had a great post all written out and i hit the go advanced button to proof read it and i got a blank page. Since that is the first time that has ever happened in all the posts i made then i guess it was just not meant to be.

 

[John99]

The page was blank...white and on the bottom it said - DONE.