There is no soul and no afterlife.

[invisibleone]

QUOTE:"That depends on how you define soul. If you define soul as one's "immaterial essence", then yes, we all have souls. However, this immaterial essence is the product of our physical attributes, specifically, our central nervous system. Hence, the soul cannot exist without the brain. There is therefore no "immortal soul"."

I don't think we're disagreeing here. All that I'm saying is that in this present existence we as living beings have unique personalities and attributes that could be regarded as 'souls.' As for the statement that there might not be an afterlife. . . we are here right now, conscious as ever, billions of years after the universe was believed to come into existence. Energy can't be created or destroyed, and when you get right down to it, we are energy. Scientists have not learned everything yet. But they have already proven that there is a greater reality that lies beyond our senses that we are not able to currently perceive with these bodies.

 

[Michael]

Proof or no Proof

Originally posted by VitalOne
Any proof that there is nothing after death? Let me guess, your proof is that there is no proof. But there is proof. There is certainly more proof that there is something after death (reincarnation,afterlife).

Could you please refer to the "proof". I'm now curious.

To believe something exists and to have proof something exists is two different beasties. I may believe in one-eyed-purple-people-eating-aliens but if I have no proof of them, then it is a fair-call for someone to question the validity of my “There are aliens” statement. That doesn’t mean that there are or are not aliens. But it does mean that I do or do not have poof of said aliens.

Many people require some sort of proof for belief in something. It is completely natural to demand some sort of proof. People do it unconsciously all day every day.

VitalOne: Why are you angered that someone should question there is an afterlife. It makes no difference on whether there is or is not an afterlife. It will effect you in no way, shape, or form. I think it’s fair enough to demand some sort of evidence before believing in something. And even more so if this scheme asks me to pay 10% of my income to get a good “afterlife”.

Originally posted by VitalOne
Death is simply when the mind leaves the physical body.

I have never been presented with evidence (and certainly no “proof”) of an “afterlife”. As such I reject the claim there is an afterlife. All evidence seems to point to the fact that the mind is lost as the brain is damaged. Of course the ultimate damage is decomposition and so I suggest that there is no more mind (thus no “you”) after death.

If you happen to have some “evidence/proof” maybe instead of attacking the questioner - just provide the evidence and your proof and be done with it. Or accept that there is none and continue along your merry way. There's an ancient saying that may be relevant here: "Show-me dah money!"

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by invisibleone
Energy can't be created or destroyed, and when you get right down to it, we are energy.

True, the matter and energy that comprises us will remain, but the precise combination of that matter and energy that makes us who we are will no longer exist. At the very least, we can say that life as we know it will be over.

 

[firingseeds]

the second death in christian teaching, i think, is spiritual annihilation.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by Canute
I hadn't thought of that. Do I have to convert the file to anything in particular?

i think you can attach the file as such. if it is in text format (notepad or wordpad file with .txt extension) it can be read by every one.

 

[Canute]

Originally posted by everneo
i think you can attach the file as such. if it is in text format (notepad or wordpad file with .txt extension) it can be read by every one.

OK - it's attached. It's a bit of a pain to read without the formatting (perhaps it is even with the formatting). Don't feel obliged to read it.

I was attempting to show that when science tries to claim consciousness as a respectable field of scientific research it is forced to resort to bloody silly arguments.

 

[everneo]

Canute,

i downloaded the txt file and it appears fairly formatted when using MS-Word. Its quite big as you said. going thro that now. may take some time to finish. it is an interesting read.

 

[ccmayer]

Energy can't be created or destroyed, and when you get right down to it, we are energy.

What you neglect to mention, invisibleone, is the rest of the Law of Conservation of Energy. It states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, IT CAN ONLY CHANGE FORM.

That is exactly what happens. You are either changed to dust or some soul. Either is possible, but I believe that dust is more likely.

Anyway, Religious fanatics don't want you to talk about beliefs other than their own, which is the ultimate irony when you consider the fact that most Christians and Muslims try to spread their beliefs like a plague. I don't know why they are so obsessed with "saving" others. Jews don't seem to both people in that way.

Personally, I believe that religious people don't want to talk about other possibilities (no afterlife, no God, Jesus was just a great guy) because they are scared to death that god might punish them or that they have been wrong all this time. Guess what, folks. God would have to be omnisicent to be a god, so it would have to understand why a human might question certain things with no evidence either way.

You people don't give "God" enough credit, if it does exist, which I do believe, btw. I'm not afraid to explore other ideas and thoughts.

 

[VitalOne]

Here's your proof for reincarnation:
http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson.htm
http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2002/10/025.html
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020622/windows/main3.htm
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2002/12/23/1267.html

The evidence is quite compelling, but scientific. There's evidence that the mind leaves the physical body.

Yes. All the evidence we have indicates that the experience of consciousness is the result of a complex set of neural interactions in our brain. When we die, our brain disintegrates. Therefore, there is no consciousness after death.

Physical Reality was created by the brain, the only thing that truly exists is the mind. All senses are electrical signals.

 

[the sage]

Originally posted by Cris

3. We know religion; especially Christianity has persecuted, tortured, harassed, murdered and tormented many scientists in the past.

Cris

cris,

logically this point makes sense to me.. but i've never read of this... any websites online that write about what has happened over the last few thousand years?

thank you! :m:

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by VitalOne
The evidence is quite compelling, but scientific. There's evidence that the mind leaves the physical body.

Okay, well if they're so sure they have "proof" of reincarnation, then they should try to see if they can cash in on the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge.

Physical Reality was created by the brain, the only thing that truly exists is the mind.

What arrogance! I refer to a quotation from atheroy from a different thread that seems appropriate here. I've replaced the original subject of "gravity" with "physical reality", but it still fits nicely in this situation.

"and please be serious. humans aren't so fucking important that if we weren't here [physical reality] wouldn't exist. we have observed it its existance only because we exist along with it. take humans out of the equation and you'll still have [physical reality]. its arguements like this that rile me, we aren't important, look up at the night sky and its infinite quality and if you feel anything but insignificant you are an arogant bastard."

Originally posted by the sage
any websites online that write about what has happened over the last few thousand years?

This page is from a very reputable source and has some of the information you seek and can probably refer you to others with more information.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by VitalOne
Physical Reality was created by the brain, the only thing that truly exists is the mind. All senses are electrical signals.

Then how come when I sneak up behind people and bash them in the head with my silver hammer their minds turn off?

~Raithere

 

[Raithere]

Sorry, forgot to comment upon this one.

Originally posted by VitalOne
The evidence is quite compelling, but scientific. There's evidence that the mind leaves the physical body.

The evidence is anecdotal at best and does not qualify as science.

~Raithere

 

[Canute]

From JadeSquirrel - "and please be serious. humans aren't so fucking important that if we weren't here [physical reality] wouldn't exist. we have observed it its existance only because we exist along with it. take humans out of the equation and you'll still have [physical reality]. its arguements like this that rile me, we aren't important, look up at the night sky and its infinite quality and if you feel anything but insignificant you are an arogant bastard."

From Raithere - "Then how come when I sneak up behind people and bash them in the head with my silver hammer their minds turn off?"

These are not relevant objections. The assertion by VitalOne was not that YOU create reality, it was that WE, all conscious beings, create it. It's not going to cease to exist just because one person gets their brain bashed in. However the particular incommensurable concept of existence that existed in that particular brain will cease to exist.

The assertion is that if you take away all those incommensurable concepts of the universe then there will be nothing left.

This is unprovable, but it is also unfalsifiable. It is not a scientific assertion, but this does not reflect on its truth or falsity.

 

[venomx]

but there is an afterlife................

well if there isn't, we will make one

well come on, it's a nice idea and it'd suck if there wasn't one afterall........ wouldn't it be nice to fix that?

Technology and humanity being the unstoppable tide they are, we will progress to a point where we can either cheat death by redesigning ourselves or creating a virtual world to live in, or more exoticly a modified bubble of spacetime with altered laws of physics.

Inevitibly, we may at some point develop time travel, or at least a way to observe through time to the past (as is likely to be feasible soon based on todays science) in which case we can follow ourselves and our ancestors back through history, perhaps at the momment of death extracting the information that comprises our minds from our brains, resurecting it in a artifical reality far in the future.

If humanity gets wiped out by a meteor tomorrow, this will still happen, somewhere in the universe some civilisation must suceed, and seek all intellegent thought in the all the universe and preserve it.

This seems to me to be a very high inevitibility especially with the surposed coming singularity (google that if you don't know what i mean), it's sort of a action-reaction causal thing. We exist, then we die and disappear. That sucks, we can't find god and we aren't sure about the afterlife... so we will do something about it.

That doesn't imply that we eventually become 'god' and save our own souls, it imply's that us and god are inextricibly linked.

(Arthur C. Clarke's Light Of Other Days is a brilliant read on this kind of thing)

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Canute
From JadeSquirrel - "and please be serious. humans aren't so fucking important that if we weren't here [physical reality] wouldn't exist. we have observed it its existance only because we exist along with it. take humans out of the equation and you'll still have [physical reality]. its arguements like this that rile me, we aren't important, look up at the night sky and its infinite quality and if you feel anything but insignificant you are an arogant bastard."

From Raithere - "Then how come when I sneak up behind people and bash them in the head with my silver hammer their minds turn off?"

These are not relevant objections. The assertion by VitalOne was not that YOU create reality, it was that WE, all conscious beings, create it. It's not going to cease to exist just because one person gets their brain bashed in. However the particular incommensurable concept of existence that existed in that particular brain will cease to exist.

The assertion is that if you take away all those incommensurable concepts of the universe then there will be nothing left.

This is unprovable, but it is also unfalsifiable. It is not a scientific assertion, but this does not reflect on its truth or falsity.

Let me ask you this: according to this theory, how would you explain the fact that conscious beings have evolved in the universe if conscious beings are needed to sustain a universe in which conscious beings can evolve? Do you not see the anthropocentric (and circular) nature of this argument?

 

[Canute]

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Let me ask you this: according to this theory, how would you explain the fact that conscious beings have evolved in the universe if conscious beings are needed to sustain a universe in which conscious beings can evolve? Do you not see the anthropocentric (and circular) nature of this argument?

I certainly do. But the same sort of objection can be made to any matter based explanation. If we assume that one of them came first, or is more fundamental than the other, then there must be an answer to this riddle. It seems to be an undecidable question.

As any decent explanation of existence must have an undecidable question in it somewhere I choose this one as mine. I put it right up front and take it as axiomatic that consciousness is fundamental. This is not an ad hoc assumption, since I feel I have considerable evidence for it, but I admit that it is unprovable.

In fact if it was provable I would have to say it is wrong, since in my 'theory' (I'm not sure it deserves such a grand title) the existence of consciousness must be unprovable ex hypothesis. I shall have to rewrite the whole theory if the existence of consciousness is ever scientifically proved.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Canute
The assertion by VitalOne was not that YOU create reality, it was that WE, all conscious beings, create it.

That's really not what he seemed to be saying but I can go with either take on the matter.

The assertion is that if you take away all those incommensurable concepts of the universe then there will be nothing left.
...
This is unprovable, but it is also unfalsifiable. It is not a scientific assertion, but this does not reflect on its truth or falsity.

At some point all theories of existence require the arbitrary assumption of the property of self-causation or being eternal. At this level of reduction all theories are equal.

However, the collective consciousness theory poses several further conundrums. Not the least of which is that it creates the necessity for a non-existent reality... a plane of consciousness from which existence is created from what?

~Raithere

 

[ccmayer]

The assertion is that if you take away all those incommensurable concepts of the universe then there will be nothing left.

This concept that nothing exists outside of our mind (either one person's mind or all of our minds) has been kicked aroung for thousands of years. Once again, this is a case of humanity trying to feel superior and important to the function of this universe.

Why would the absense of intelligent life in the Universe mean that there is nothing left? Where did this life come from?? If you believe in God, then there certainly was plenty going on before intelligence showed up. If you do not believe, then how did life form? What was here before intelligence?

Clearly, no matter what you believe in, something had to exist before us, even before intelligence in the Universe. Stars existed way before intelligence, but I guess those won't exist once we're gone. Plenty will exist once we are gone, too. Stars, blacks holes, and dark matter will be here long after intelligent life has ceased to exist in this universe. Once the universe collapses in on itself, there will still be SOMETHING, which will probably begin the huge cycle of life all over again.

Maybe you people who need to believe that our existence must be important, that we are God's chosen people, and/or that the collective minds of all intelligent life are the Universe have inferiority issues.

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Canute
But the same sort of objection can be made to any matter based explanation.

If by this you mean that any scientific theory must assume that existence does indeed exist and that we can attain knowledge of the universe by observation, then fine. But science has been shown to be the best way to attain knowledge. Believing that true knowledge lies outside of this existence is fine if that's what will make you happy, but it doesn't do you a lot of good in the "real world", or at least the world that is "real" as far as we can know it to be.