There is no soul and no afterlife.

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mind uploading

There's that term again.

I even saw a thread in the "computers and AI" forum dedicated to the idea.

Let me repeat, once again, that -

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR A COMPUTER TO CAPTURE HUMAN CONCIOUSNESS.

And there's solid mathematical proof for it.

If we are to consider achieving immortality, this is not going to be an option.
 
have you considered upcoming quantum computers?

and the idea is to copy/paste our brain not to create a new one.

But maybe I misunderstod you;)
 
Yes

You understood perfectly.

I'm convinced that human conciousness has a quantum element to it. If that is the case, then a "quantum computer" could possibly model it.

Our present processors cannot do "mind uploading" any justice.

The issues relating to transfering human conciousness to a machine are very interesting (to me atleast). I'm disappointed that I could not find more on it in sciforums.
 
Originally posted by Avatar
and the idea is to copy/paste our brain not to create a new one.
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To clarify.

I was saying that a copy/paste of the "neural net" contained in our brains, will not duplicate our conciousness, ie. we cannot look towards any such technology as a solution for immortality. (Of course, this assumes that we will continue to use "non-quantum" computers.)

Instead, an actual, physical brain transplant is more viable (for immortality). This leads to an extended lifetime, but not necessarily, an indefinte one. Our brain cells die off and are not replaced. If we discover a way to replace brain cells, then this option can give us indefinite lifespans.
 
Hmmmmm, maybe you should ask Stryderunknown on more info.
Duno. Make up your own thread maybe.
Cheers!
 
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---If we discover a way to replace brain cells, then this option can give us indefinite lifespans.---


This might soon come true. I remember I smwhere read tht some scientists have found a replicator in some old ??malaria?? medicine.
Needs quite a bit more research on it. I will check the net for it. But I think tht it is not impossible(replace brain cells) and could be found in near future. _sten cell research and genetics_
 
GOD,

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR A COMPUTER TO CAPTURE HUMAN CONCIOUSNESS.

And there's solid mathematical proof for it.
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Define what you mean by consciousness and explain why it can't be transferred?

Can you provide a link that points to the mathematical proof or could you paste the article here please.

If we can transfer all brain function from a biological substrate to a non-biological substrate then where is the problem? Are you saying there is something inherrant in a biological brain cell that will prevent us from duplicating its function, if so then what is the limitation?

Cris
 
Originally posted by Cris
GOD,

Define what you mean by consciousness and explain why it can't be transferred?

Can you provide a link that points to the mathematical proof or could you paste the article here please.

If we can transfer all brain function from a biological substrate to a non-biological substrate then where is the problem? Are you saying there is something inherrant in a biological brain cell that will prevent us from duplicating its function, if so then what is the limitation?

Cris
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I should have been more precise. Sorry, my mistake if I came off sounding mystical. :)

Specifically - the ability of a human mind to deduce mathematical truths/proofs can be proven to be non-algorithmic in nature. (Godel, Turing, Church, etc.)

Roger Penrose has built on their works to suggest that "conciousness" is non-algorithmic. (in 2 books - The emperor's new mind, Shadows of the mind) He gave a precise definition, which is too long to reproduce here.

Unfortunately, I could not find an online source for these. If you could get Penrose's books, I'd strongly recommend them.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Are you saying there is something inherrant in a biological brain cell that will prevent us from duplicating its function, if so then what is the limitation?

Cris
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Please see the the 3rd and 4th posts on the top of this page where I briefly replied to Avatar.

The limitation is that conciousness is likely to have a quantum mechanical element to it.

When we do discover "quantum computing", I'd imagine that this limitation could be overcome.
 
Eternal Life Sentence

First of all, I just want to tell GOD that we've all seen that episode of Star Trek where Scotty is trapped in the transporter for 75 years...nice idea, but not very original

Secondly, besides the obvious fact that people believe in the afterlife because they don't want to accept the truth and permanence of death, one thing that people don't concentrate on is how bad eternal life would be. Imagine if you've seen the whole Universe since the beginning of time for every dimension and every reality. You've experienced everything possible, and guess what...You still have eternity...You can see all of heaven and hell, think every thought, live every life that has ever lived and you STILL have eternity.

Screw that...I want the peaceful serenity of oblivion
 
ccmayer,

You can see all of heaven and hell, think every thought, live every life that has ever lived and you STILL have eternity.
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Perhaps religionists also have not thought this through.

Why does a Christian for example want to live forever? I guess love is fine for a while, but for eternity?
 
Hi – I’m a neuro-stem cell research scientist. Will replacing the neurons allow us to live forever? Who knows. Maybe and just as easily maybe not.

My feeling is that replacing the brain cells would eventually replace the personality itself, over the long run. Would there be a little “essence” of yourself left? ?? just think – are you the same as you were ten years go? Probably quite a bit has changed about you but you are somewhat the same. Now lets say you lived to 200 years and had replaced 20% of the cells in your brain. 50% . . 100% . . I mean what will be left that is the “you” you initially wanted to save? If I could bring a 1000 year old you back to meet the “you of today”, my guess is the today-you probably wouldn’t even recognize the 1000yr-old-you. And the you of 1000 years may not even remember the today-you. So I guess your gone regardless :) But who knows.

I personally think if you could freeze a brain without causing serious damage to the individual cells (neurons and supporting cells – oligos astros etcetera) then the brain may be able to be fixed using some sort of nanomachines in the future. But who knows. The damage done will be at a cellular level and would require some sort repair at that level. The brain is just as physical as a car engine and there is nothing magical about it. If we can repair any damage done by the freezing then it should work fine. Maybe. Hell it certainly can’t hurt. However – just freezing the brain as done the last time I looked into it would be akin to taking a sledge hammer and pulverizing the tissue. Nothing’s left. I mean the N2 completely destroys the brain architecture (that was years ago - maybe something new has been discovered). So sometime in the near future we need to
1) Discover antifreeze chemicals that can modify the structure of water as it freezes so as not to adopt a conformation that shreds cells (water has 7(6?) freezing states).
2) make nano machines (biological or otherwise) that can repair nervous tissue.
3) Place fixed brain in immortalized body and
4) Begin working for you new masters – the machines .... :)

I have talked with some physicists about the Uploading idea and they said it is impossible unless maybe we have a quantum computer - which the guy said was, barring a completely new way of thinking, going to take hundreds of years of research to get over what he says are the known big problems. This guy does theoretical physics regarding information and quantum mechanics. We had a nice discussion on the “multiverse” which was quite confusing. Something to do with the brain is entangled to what it observes via quantum entanglement and all possibilities playing out and information and and and .. . . . . crazy stuff :D
 
Originally posted by Cris
dak,

OK, but much too literal.

After you cease to exist -

I would say that the cohesive patterns that represented your thoughts and memories that were once held in an electro-chemical state have now ceased to exist. The fabric of the holding structures has simply disintegrated into more basic components and elements.

I care little for my physical form, I see myself represented by the patterns that form my thought processes and memories. If I could survive in a different form then that really means that those thought and memory patterns will be present.

Cris
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But isn't everything your physical form?
Your thoughts and memories, where will they go?
I think automatically assuming death is the end is as superstitious as believing in a soul. It is like you are attributing the mind with some magical element that spirits away from the carcass.
Life goes on on the earh and you will go on with it, you will spread out across the ecosystem of your resting place. Decomposing into dirt eaten by worms, that are eaten by birds and so on. Nothing about you can disappear so what are you worried about? Sure you won't be playing pool in the afterlife and you probably won't be as aware as you are now but how much do we know about the universe? Absolutely nothing.
There is just as likely to be some completely unknown purpose to everything. Perhaps we will only realise that when we become a planet.
No guarantees but death is not guaranteed to be nothing either. If it is thats not so bad anyway.
Again, we don't know enough about the universe to make any assumptions, there might not be real meaning to our lives exactly, but there might be some purpose to earths life and we will be part of earth soon enough, and if there's no purpose or meaning to earth's life there might be some point to the universe and when the sun explodes we might find out.
Who knows?
 
Originally posted by Michael
I have talked with some physicists about the Uploading idea and they said it is impossible unless maybe we have a quantum computer - which the guy said was, barring a completely new way of thinking, going to take hundreds of years of research to get over what he says are the known big problems.
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I think hundreds of years is an exaggeration. Simple quantum computers have already been designed, constructed, and tested. See this article for more details. I'll wager that in about 20 years, I'll be posting this on a quantum PC.
 
Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
I think automatically assuming death is the end is as superstitious as believing in a soul. It is like you are attributing the mind with some magical element that spirits away from the carcass.
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Nothing magical about it. Just a highly-organized and distinctly unique system of neurons and synapses. Believing death is the end does not require belief that your mind is "spirited away". When you die, your brain decays into more basic elements, resulting in a permanent loss of consciousness.

Life goes on on the earh and you will go on with it, you will spread out across the ecosystem of your resting place. Decomposing into dirt eaten by worms, that are eaten by birds and so on. Nothing about you can disappear so what are you worried about?
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Your consciousness will disappear. But you're right. Our elements will be recycled in nature, and that's good enough for me. I'm just grateful (to no one in particular) to have gotten a chance to experience consciousness. No worries.
 
Dr Lou,

You don’t appear to have understood what I have said.

Consider a written story. It can be held on paper, on a computer monitor, held on disk, etc. It is not the medium that is important but the pattern of the letters and words that form the story. Providing that pattern is maintained somewhere then the story will survive.

In a similar way your brain maintains a set of neural patterns that represents what you consider as “you”. If your brain is destroyed or it decays and you have not made a copy of those patterns then “you” will cease to exist.
 
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