There is absolutely NO contradiction whatsoever between religious faith and science

So you don't consider anything in that list evidence, as you would not be convinced.

So again, what do consider evidence of God?

jan.
I consider everything on that list to be a potential threat to the atheist model of the universe.

what if..
god is not a new particle? (physical)
god has already been seen in science? (hiding in plain sight)
god is not where science is looking? (or can examine)

If science cannot look there, it has no effect on our universe and it's irrelevant. Science can examine indirect evidence. There are many, many things that would invalidate a naturalistic explanation for the universe.
 
Of course, except for the unambiguous appearance of God. God would know many, many ways to confirm his existence, but for some reason he chooses not to.

How do you know He doesn't confirm His existence?

How do you know, for example, that the rising and setting of the Sun is not one of the ways for God to show His existence?

For example, a cleaned office is some evidence that a cleaning lady was there - even if you never saw or heard her, but you can tell by the effects (ie. cleaned office) that she must have been there.

Similary, the rising and setting of the Sun could be some indicator of God's existence.


As for asking for the unambiguous appearance of God: The problem with this one is that you are implicitly asking that your free will be overridden.

Getting to know someone requires an effort both on the part of the one who wants to know and of the other one, who is to become known.

If you want to know someone, but you don't make any effort, the other person can still make themselves known to you and break down your resistances and lack of effort. But that probably feels like being run over by a train ...
 
THE CONTRADICTORY CREATOR…

A creator’s Mind-Life cannot be first and fundamental, for parts precede a system. Done. Go on, just for the heck of it. Nothing begets nothing; thus, something was always here; so, no creation means no Creator. More than done. Go on, just for the heck of it. Only the natural is seen, nothing super. Really really done. Go on, just for the heck of it. If one still wants a God… must prove. None proved. Go on, just for the heck of it. Make up stuff. No go. Go on, just for the heck of it. God is sensed. No go, due to all of the above, plus, many neurological substrates are beneath the felt sensations. Still preach God as fact. Unethical. Only a conjecture. Get mad/angry? Useless—shows nothing. Still stubborn? Get real and do some science.
 
How do you know He doesn't confirm His existence?

How do you know, for example, that the rising and setting of the Sun is not one of the ways for God to show His existence?

For example, a cleaned office is some evidence that a cleaning lady was there - even if you never saw or heard her, but you can tell by the effects (ie. cleaned office) that she must have been there.

Similary, the rising and setting of the Sun could be some indicator of God's existence.


As for asking for the unambiguous appearance of God: The problem with this one is that you are implicitly asking that your free will be overridden.

Getting to know someone requires an effort both on the part of the one who wants to know and of the other one, who is to become known.

If you want to know someone, but you don't make any effort, the other person can still make themselves known to you and break down your resistances and lack of effort. But that probably feels like being run over by a train ...

The rising of the sun is already known to be the product of inanimate forces.

I don't follow that free will would be overridden by meeting someone.
 
Funeral for the Idea of God…

We have seen that there is no fingerprint of God anywhere; plus, theists/deists have not shown that there is any fingerprint whatsoever. It really doesn’t go anywhere for someone to just hope that there might be a fingerprint or that there will be one. Where is it then? Hopes and wishes are not facts.

No Moon God; no Mt. Olympus Gods; no Sun God; and now no Universe God. This is not terrible in itself; it’s just that we search for the truth on SciForum. Truth is what can ultimately help the human race, not myth or fiction.

The thing, though, about the theists saying there should be fingerprints of evidence all over, completely verifies the approach of the disproof of God that finds none. Note that only one fingerprint would show God; one measly one, that’s all, but, still, there are none!

It is really that humanity is fine-tuned to the Earth and its part of the universe—evolution has shown us that. The IDers of the past have been confined to looking for gaps, but now the gaps close, to squeeze them out of their last refuge. Behe, for example, just put out the same content in a semi-recent book, stuff was already discredited in his previous book, he not even including the new facts thereafter. To see one glorious mishap of his a while back, google Dover, creationism, court trial (Delaware).

In dealing with God, there can be nothing visual or even sensual, but the whole is still wished for in the mind, as well should be the implicated details, but only if they allow them to have a place, for it is very easy to neglect those. Some might just remain at a level of “all is one”, forever placing themselves far away from any details, even to the point of not being able to consider them. That is the right side of the brain speaking. Furthermore, the mind, in the case of the imagination of the idea of God, contains no real and actual details to guide it for any armchair analysis, yet, more spiritual structures are even layered upon the first fabrication.

To be complete in examining a concept, the brain must be able to think both scientifically and holistically, although these views may not present themselves at the exact same time; one needs to juggle them, perhaps, if the holistic is dominating; but, just remember that one is already one step lost when one even begins to imagine invisible things.

One problem with all Designer arguments is their failure to account for the nature and prior existence of the Designer. Under what set of physical laws did God operate before he made the universe, and where did those laws come from? We are left in the same Ark as before, and so we cannot just have the right brain exempt God from these very real concerns.

If he was intelligent to enough to engage in large-scale cosmic engineering, by what means did he evolve that intelligence’ except, that He’s supposed to be fundamental? How did he know that the system of natural laws he chose before the Big Bang would inevitably lead to thinking creatures like ourselves? And why did it take so long if the answer is that he is all powerful? And if he existed before time, then how did he act and plan and make ready for the time of Genesis, said to be an experiment. As if he doesn’t really know all in advance? It would even take time to invent ‘time’, so, that did not happen. One simply cannot just have a great system of mind being responsible, without allowing that all systems must have components beneath, for their operations of thinking, feeling, and doing; however, emotion doesn’t care, for how can it, since it only knows itself.

Using only a piece of mind will bring only an illusional peace of mind, which again, is fine, except when proclaiming truth from it, for then it is a big no-no, being a very large deception of a piece of the mind.
 
I don't follow that free will would be overridden by meeting someone.

It would be in a situation where you would meet someone, based on your desire to meet them, but where you would simultaneously act in such a manner so as to prevent it.

If you have the desire to meet God, and you act in a manner that is not favorable to meeting God, then, if God would nevertheless make Himself known to you, it would require that your free will be overridden (ie. you would forcibly be restrained from acting in such a manner so as to prevent meeting God).
 
Since God is omnipotent, he could show himself to anyone without prerequisites. (Hey, if you can make up stupid rules, so can I).
 
Since God is omnipotent, he could show himself to anyone without prerequisites. (Hey, if you can make up stupid rules, so can I).

Except that one of those prerequisites that you suppose should be done without is also an individual's free will.
 
That's an artificial barrier that you invented. One should rightly suspect the reality of something when you have to believe it before you see it.
 
That's an artificial barrier that you invented.

If a person is like this -

lalala-i-cant-hear-you.jpg


- what do you think it would take to stop the la la la, open their eyes and take the hands off their ears?
Another person forcibly doing so to them, would that not be an act of overriding their free will?


One should rightly suspect the reality of something when you have to believe it before you see it.

Sure, and I am not arguing against that.
However, you are presenting the position that a person should be able to be fully passive and non-receptive - but still be able to get to know God.
If the reason for this is "God is omnipotent, so He should be able to make Himself known to me even against my will and despite my lack of effort", then I suppose this is in the same league with "If God is omnipotent, therefore, He should be able to make round triangles; and if He cannot, He's not omnipotent".

Open your mind, don't be so defensive.
 
It's only polite to introduce yourself.

As far as definitions go, God owns the whole enterprise, so He gets to have the say on how things are to be done and who comes to introduce themselves to whom first.

Mind you, I do not consider myself a theist. I am just trying to be fair and to understand theist logic.
At this point, it really is just about understanding definitions, and one needn't accept them as true to think about them.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
- Aristotle.
 
Bear in mind that I have already disproved God via self-contradiction and that no one has been able to refute it. Game over, but here's yet another method…

The Summary of Victor Stenger’s Disproofs of God

Where shall we find, or not, the supernatural—God? We would find it doing super things that are beyond the natural. If we look everywhere and only find the natural, then the disproof of God lives.


Why is there something rather than nothing?

Now what is it that is as simple as it gets? Well, nothing, [but that cannot be. A near ‘nothing’ ground-state, then.] Therefore, we cannot expect it to be very stable. Something is the more natural state of affairs and is thus much more likely than nothing; so, God is not needed to create anything.


Mass and matter are created from energy!

The universe appeared from a state of zero energy, this being, of course, within the unavoidable and tiny quantum uncertainty; so, no miracle occurred.


There is no time-zero imprint of the very hand of God!

An expanding universe could have started in total chaos and still formed some localized order consistent with the 2nd law. At the Planck time, the disorder was complete; it was maximal. Thus the universe began with no structure. None. In fact it was chaos! There was no initial design built in to the universe at its beginning! there was no imprint left by a creator.


Biblical revelation is unrevealing.

Biblical prophecy is either vague, wrong, coincidence, a matter of ordinary prediction, or it can be more-simply explained as written after the fact. Humankind’s holy books are what one would expect if they were but products of human culture.


In the ‘beginning’… there was no cause!

Physical events at the atomic and subatomic level are observed to have no evident cause. Every time we try to measure what an atom does, we get a different answer this then is the answer: that realm is causeless.


Quantum Consciousness.

Einstein did away with the aether, shattering the doctrine that we all move about inside a universal, cosmic fluid whose excitations connect us simultaneously to one another and to the rest of the universe. Second, Einstein and other physicists proved that matter and light were composed of particles, wiping away the notion of universal continuity.


Enlightenment Deism.

In 1982 a definitive series of EOR experiments with this configuration was carried out by Alain Aspect. The results agreed perfectly with conventional quantum mechanics and thus ruled out any subquantum theory with local hidden variables.


The laws of the universe are natural.

A principle of point-of-view invariance is equivalent to the principle of covariance when applied to space-time. These laws automatically appear in any model that does not single out a special moment in time, position in space, and direction in space. Back at the Planck time of the big bang, the universe had no distinguishable place, direction, or time: it had no structure; thus, the conservation laws apply.


Our values/laws/morals do not come from God and/or religion.

There are common ideals that arose during the gradual evolution of human societies, who, as they become more civilized, developed rational thinking processes, and discovered how to live together in greater harmony. Human and societal behaviors look just as they can be expected to look if there is no God.


There was no fine-tuning of the universe.

For fine-tuning, only ‘dimensionless’ numbers that do not depend on the system of units are meaningful. The fine structure ‘constant, ‘a’, is not even a constant. There can still be long-lived stars if we vary the parameters and certainly the universe is not fine-tuned for this characteristic. The 7.65 million electron-volts needed for carbon to form actually hinges on the radioactive state of a carbon nucleus formed out of three helium nuclei, which has over a 20% range to work with without being too high. The vacuum energy of the universe is not fine-tuned, for the large value of N1 is simply an artifact of the use of small masses in making the comparison. The expansion rate of the universe is not fine-tuned since the universe appeared from an earlier state of zero energy; thus, energy conservation would require the exact expansion rate that is observed. Same for the mass density of the universe. Looks just the same as if there were no God.


The Vile Argument from Evil…

becomes that we rely on our own human instincts, these taking precedence over confusing divine commands, for these commands offend both our common sense and our reason. Observations of human and animal suffering look just as they can be expected to look if there is no God.


[All in all, we have found only the natural. There is no fingerprint of the supernatural. None at all. The idea of ‘God’ is dead. We have 0 proofs of the supernatural, with many disproofs of the supernatural, and 0 disproofs of the natural. QED]
 
1.Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.The universe began to exist.
3.Therefore the universe has a cause.

I don't think you (sci writer) require an explanation of this logic, but it would be
interesting to see your rebuttal.

jan.
 
1.Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.The universe began to exist.
3.Therefore the universe has a cause.

I don't think you (sci writer) require an explanation of this logic, but it would be
interesting to see your rebuttal.

jan.


Jan, you must have neglected the information thus far, the gist of which was that Atlas cannot be standing upon smaller and smaller turtles all the way down.


Here is the Kalâm cosmological argument, noted by Stenger, which is drawn from Islamic theology. The argument is posed as a syllogism:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

So, is the first premise self-evident?

In fact, physical events at the atomic and subatomic level are observed to have no evident cause. When an atom emits a photon, a particle of light, we find no cause of that event. Similarly, no cause is evident in the decay of a radioactive nucleus. Energetic particles come into and out of existence without cause. They are beyond the edge of the world of cause, that world being the classical world.

[There is uncertainty. The ‘certain’ is thus deader than a doornail.]

Instead of predicting individual events, quantum mechanics is used to predict the statistical distribution of outcomes of ensembles of similar events. But neither quantum mechanics nor any other existing theory can say anything about the behavior of an individual nucleus or atom. The photons emitted come into existence spontaneously, as do the particles emitted in nuclear radiation.

The kalâm argument fails both empirically and theoretically without ever having to bring up its second premise about the universe even having a beginning. All is as it would be if there were no God.

Every time we try to measure what an atom does, we get a different answer. [This then is the answer. That realm is causeless.]
 
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