Theists: Are you here to defend theism, or to convert people?

[Rav]

BUT NOT IN THIS WORLD.. NOT IN THIS LIFE..

So again. What you put forward has absolutely nothing to do with me. Because what you where talking about is the cause of conflict IN THIS WORLD, IN THIS LIFE.

Huh? You're not really making sense.

This world is indeed what I am talking about, and as such my previous comments stand.

 

[Frishman]

I believe S&S was referring to the betterment of mankind. It's sort of a theme she has.

Personally, I believe that the first lesson that should be pounded into theist's heads is "judge not lest ye be judged." As a theist, I hold to this statement as proof that I cannot declare that a man is going to Hell just because he believes differently from me. The Bible can actually be interpreted many ways on this, and I've heard from priests who've studied it more extensively than me that all who follow Christ's teachings will be saved, regardless of whether or not they're Christian, atheist, Muslim or otherwise. It was one of Pope John Paul II's teachings as well, that there are many paths to salvation, and that no man has the power to judge another.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I believe S&S was referring to the betterment of mankind. It's sort of a theme she has.

Personally, I believe that the first lesson that should be pounded into theist's heads is "judge not lest ye be judged." As a theist, I hold to this statement as proof that I cannot declare that a man is going to Hell just because he believes differently from me. The Bible can actually be interpreted many ways on this, and I've heard from priests who've studied it more extensively than me that all who follow Christ's teachings will be saved, regardless of whether or not they're Christian, atheist, Muslim or otherwise. It was one of Pope John Paul II's teachings as well, that there are many paths to salvation, and that no man has the power to judge another.

i believe that is a true and correct interpretation. There are many hints that allude to this . Saved how ? What does "saved" really mean? I read it as many different degrees of salvation . I get that from the verses that say you will be rewarded by your works . That can mean lots of things by it self . Consider if you do an evil work you might be rewarded for it . A swift kick in the ass might be one reward you would have coming . I know some minds might not think of a swift kick in the ass as a reward . Consider if a car was about to run you down and a swift kick knocked you out of the way . That would be a pretty good reward if you didn't want to get run down by a car

 

[Jan Ardena]

Huh? You're not really making sense.

This world is indeed what I am talking about, and as such my previous comments stand.

Actually is does make sense from a religious point of view, namely Adstar's religion.

You're ignoring his perspective.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Oh my Don't you relaise i can quote your post in this thread????

Yes, please do:

There you go. You open up your first post in this thread by calling me a Liar.

False.
Where is the word "liar"? Can you point it out? I, however, CAN quote the word deluded:

And the rest of your post is equally deluded.

As I said, I actually showed HOW you were deluded as to your reason:

You want to bring them round to your belief: you have no evidence that doing so actually "saves them", helps them or improves their lives.

Post #14.

And you also admitted that you can't prove what you believe:

I cannot prove anything

(Post #13) despite proclaiming it to be the truth.
This to me IS deluusion.

If you'd rather be called a liar (i.e. you're espousing something you don't actually believe) then I'll do that. But for the time being I'll accept that you believe what you're promoting and are merely deluded.

 

[kx000]

I believe S&S was referring to the betterment of mankind. It's sort of a theme she has.

Personally, I believe that the first lesson that should be pounded into theist's heads is "judge not lest ye be judged." As a theist, I hold to this statement as proof that I cannot declare that a man is going to Hell just because he believes differently from me. The Bible can actually be interpreted many ways on this, and I've heard from priests who've studied it more extensively than me that all who follow Christ's teachings will be saved, regardless of whether or not they're Christian, atheist, Muslim or otherwise. It was one of Pope John Paul II's teachings as well, that there are many paths to salvation, and that no man has the power to judge another.

I don't mind being judged, and if you are a theist you shouldn't either.

 

[kwhilborn]

Don't fret about Dywy; just add him to your ignore list. He doesn't contribute anything to this website, he just likes to troll.

 

[kx000]

Don't fret about Dywy; just add him to your ignore list. He doesn't contribute anything to this website, he just likes to troll.

No. He offers up things to think about.

 

[SciWriter]

Some people don't like Dywyddyr keeping them honest, I guess.

 

[chimpkin]

From my experience (and this all my personal experience, I'm not generalizing), every atheist I've ever talked to about my beliefs has treated me like a tree-worshiping monkey.

Hey, what's wrong with worshipping trees anyway? *flings poo*

Although I must admit my spirituality and my sense of humor overlap. I really do follow the trickster, no joke.
Lots of joking though.

I post anything because I either have something to spout about or enjoy posting...though it's often all about keeping me up in my cerebral cortex. If I get lost in my amygdala it can take some time for me to get back out again.

I assert that one's spirituality is an intensely personal experience, inherently nonlogical, cannot be explained to others, is something one must work out for oneself. So, of course talking about it looks like nonsense, it's not something amenable to logic.

If I wanted to convert anyone to anything...it would be to the idea of doubt.
If you feel you have all the answers in a spiritual sense, you are almost certainly just ossifying.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Hey, what's wrong with worshipping trees anyway? *flings poo*

Although I must admit my spirituality and my sense of humor overlap. I really do follow the trickster, no joke.
Lots of joking though.

I post anything because I either have something to spout about or enjoy posting...though it's often all about keeping me up in my cerebral cortex. If I get lost in my amygdala it can take some time for me to get back out again.

I assert that one's spirituality is an intensely personal experience, inherently nonlogical, cannot be explained to others, is something one must work out for oneself. So, of course talking about it looks like nonsense, it's not something amenable to logic.

If I wanted to convert anyone to anything...it would be to the idea of doubt.
If you feel you have all the answers in a spiritual sense, you are almost certainly just ossifying.

see the funny thing is the tree ! It is symbolic of the the Cross of Christ . The wooden cross is also called the tree of salvation . Something like that . I think it is a 12 century thing ? Could have something to do with the pagans conversion . Tree worshiping cultures being converted by swapping out the tree with the cross . Speculation yes , but I seen literature from Irish peoples that called the cross a tree. World tree motifs go way back . Funny the bible has one too . I think the African tree thing is probably the oldest . Just a guess at this point . I bet it is true . I will bet a Penny . She is a very sweet girl . You will like her Chimpkin if I lose . She is a good witch .

Just joken . She is a bad witch , No that was not it . I don't know a Penny right now . Last Penny was Penny Bell . She made the best pumpkin pies I ever ate . Sure miss those pies

 

[kx000]

Some people don't like Dywyddyr keeping them honest, I guess.

My problem is he seems like a no it all, literally and figuratively. Dywyddyr your a smart dude, I'd like to see more constructive arguments from you. Not just refuting what theist say. Also, smaller words please.

 

[Dywyddyr]

My problem is he seems like a no it all, literally and figuratively.

Leave out the word "seems".

I'd like to see more constructive arguments from you. Not just refuting what theist say.

I'll provide more constructive arguments once you start providing something more than unsupported declarations.

Also, smaller words please.

Oh boy...

 

[kx000]

Leave out the word "seems".


I'll provide more constructive arguments once you start providing something more than unsupported declarations.


Oh boy...

My claims are supported by the bible, and other "mythological" readings. I also throw out historical facts. The problem between theist and scientific learners is theist assume God exist, and that is necessary for these debates to take place. If I didn't assume G.O.D was up there then all we would have is..

"Does God exist?
Yea I think so.
I don't.
Ok... whats for lunch?"

By assuming in God we get this

"Does God exist?
Yes he does.
No thats stupid.
Well he does.
Whats your proof?
I have none.. but you have none to the opposite.
You have to prove the negative (or positive???).
Well if I were an all powerful being who for one reason or another did not want to be discovered simply by showing my sparkling face to the world I would in no way leave any hard evidence of my existence."

However, there is evidence out there.. the problem is you need to have some faith to not refute it. This is because faith is very important to YAWH, a test in a way. A man can go crazy trying to explain what im thinking about right now

 

[Dywyddyr]

My claims are supported by the bible, and other "mythological" readings.

Hmm, okay.
So you want me me (us) to ignore the fact that the bible isn't a reliable source?
Plus, of course, the slight problem that whatever you find in the bible you can nearly always find something to contradict it: in the bible.

I also throw out historical facts.

"Throw out"? As in "throw away"?

"Does God exist?
Yes he does.
No thats stupid.
Well he does.
Whats your proof?
I have none.. but you have none to the opposite.
You have to prove the negative (or positive???).

Er, no. If you are going to make an assumption (god exists) that's one thing. If you are THEN going to start telling other people what they should or shoul;d not do based on your assumption you have to provide some reasonable evidence for them to subscribe to your belief.

Well if I were an all powerful being who for one reason or another did not want to be discovered simply by showing my sparkling face to the world I would in no way leave any hard evidence of my existence.

Assumption piled on assumption.

However, there is evidence out there.. the problem is you need to have some faith to not refute it. This is because faith is very important to YAWH, a test in a way. A man can go crazy trying to explain what im thinking about right now

In other words you have to believe before you can believe.

 

[kx000]

Hmm, okay.
So you want me me (us) to ignore the fact that the bible isn't a reliable source?
Plus, of course, the slight problem that whatever you find in the bible you can nearly always find something to contradict it: in the bible.


"Throw out"? As in "throw away"?


Er, no. If you are going to make an assumption (god exists) that's one thing. If you are THEN going to start telling other people what they should or shoul;d not do based on your assumption you have to provide some reasonable evidence for them to subscribe to your belief.


Assumption piled on assumption.


In other words you have to believe before you can believe.

As I said, discussions on this subject truly is speculative nonsense. Think of it like Nascar. We are racing a giant circle. When time is up we will have a winner and a loser, but we will never know why were racing in the first place. Poor analogy, but im tired.

To the bold, as I stated, the Bible is the Book of Good and Evil.

Also, I did not tell anyone to do anything. If I did, I meant it as a suggestion. My suggestion to you is have faith, and follow the golden rule.

 

[SlidesandScaffolds]

"Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

Dywydder is open to understanding what we believe and why we believe it. He just doesn't want us stating our belief as fact until we can prove it (okay...maybe not completely open, but at least quasi-tolerant). It is better, my supposedly knowledgable (it is in your ID after all...) friend, in these cases to simply accept that he believes what he believes, while you believe what you believe. If you want to "save" him, commit your life to science or the pursuit of hard evidence of your faith. Just remember, in the end, the judgement is God's. Not ours.

An Aside: Also...please don't describe our Lord's face as "sparkling". You are going to give the impressionable teens the idea that we read Twilight. And if you do...I will pray for your literary soul.

 

[Dywyddyr]

As I said, discussions on this subject truly is speculative nonsense.

Really?
I disagree.

To the bold, as I stated, the Bible is the Book of Good and Evil.

Yep. Another one of your unsupported declarations.

My suggestion to you is have faith, and follow the golden rule.

Why?

 

[kx000]

Really?
I disagree.


Yep. Another one of your unsupported declarations.


Why?

Exactly.

Want a nonspeculative conversation?

Does God exist?
Im not sure
Yea Idk either
How can we know?
Im not sure

 

[wynn]

Hey, what's wrong with worshipping trees anyway? *flings poo*

What on earth are you doing hugging a tree?!
This is your idea of a spiritual experience?!
Hugging a tree?
Is this what you have been reduced to?
...
And I'll tell you why they do that: because there are no true consequences of a mature kind in the interior life when you hug a tree.
You get to control what you call your "relationship to God" if you hug a tree. It is an expression of a desperation to touch the sacred with absolutely no consequences as a result.

- from an interview with Caroline Myss, at 7.20

I assert that one's spirituality is an intensely personal experience, inherently nonlogical, cannot be explained to others,

In that case, spirituality is no different from solipsism.

is something one must work out for oneself.

Working things out for oneself is not mutually exlusive with being able to meaningfully communicate about it with others.

If I wanted to convert anyone to anything...it would be to the idea of doubt.

Doubt alone will destroy a person.

One needs faith, doubt, and determination, each in the critical amounts.

If one of them is lacking, the other two won't do what they otherwise could do.