Theists: Are you here to defend theism, or to convert people?

[SlidesandScaffolds]

Originally I joined the forum in case I thought I could input something useful into the thinking pool. So far, I have enjoyed reading and gaining knowledge out of the other parts of this forum, but I felt that I had some insight to give as it pertained to my faith and the theology/philosophy behind it.

The reason for this, for me, is because:

1) I was tired of reading posts where theists destroy themselves by screaming at people who believe differently. I thought this is supposed to be a forum of like minded (in that we all seem to either have enough education or else enough years to count us as intelligent) individuals who come to discuss topics rationally and logically while being open to new and different ideas. I don't believe that an individual can claim they are open minded or even working for God's good if they refuse to at least try and understand the arguments presented by the "opposition". I also don't like to think of the world as "us" vs. "them".

2) I do genuinely want to help show those of different faiths (whether they contain other gods or no gods at all) where it is that some of us are coming from. I also would like to learn what it is that makes them believe that we can't accept scientific fact. I believe in science. It makes us stronger when used for the rest of the world and not as a quick way to make cash.

3) I haven't been on here very long, and maybe sometimes my writing style is too wordy or isn't clear enough. I hope to eventually come to a point where I can argue clearly and concisely enough that both sides can at least share enough respect/civility that we can discuss science (or any other topics) without being ignored because we also happen to have faith.

4) I want to show by example that a Christian can spread the message of God's love without damning everyone who doesn't accept it to a lifetime of Hell. Christians are not given a divine right by God to judge our fellow man. He alone is supposed to have that power. For those out there who don't believe in any God but are still doing their best to better their fellow man, I believe that as long as you're doing that, you will be welcome into the kingdom of God. Why? Because maybe, just maybe, the reason you are decent is because you have been shown kindness or love on such a fundamental level that it pervades all that you do. I believe that God is love, and if you are accepting that deep and immovable hope/love, even if it doesn't share the name of my God, it is God all on its own.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

It looks like Adstar's providing the perfect illustration for an idea about aggressive theist egoism that I suspect Signal was already thinking about when this thread was started.

Your probably right . Signal is a very smart girl . What is religion with out tradition of locality anyway. Where does Adstar live again ? I would think the conception of God would be in-line with his daily peers they congregate with ?
No ? Yes ? Lone wolf?

 

[scheherazade]

4) I want to show by example that a Christian can spread the message of God's love without damning everyone who doesn't accept it to a lifetime of Hell. Christians are not given a divine right by God to judge our fellow man. He alone is supposed to have that power. For those out there who don't believe in any God but are still doing their best to better their fellow man, I believe that as long as you're doing that, you will be welcome into the kingdom of God. Why? Because maybe, just maybe, the reason you are decent is because you have been shown kindness or love on such a fundamental level that it pervades all that you do. I believe that God is love, and if you are accepting that deep and immovable hope/love, even if it doesn't share the name of my God, it is God all on its own.

If we could but learn to love and respect one another, and work within the sustainable limits of this marvelous life support system we call planet Earth, it would be enough, IMO.

We but seek to better understand the experience of life and self-awareness, and the answers to questions of our origin and/or purpose.

What is there to hate? Why do we continue to harm one another?

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

I'm actually not here for religion at all. I joined some threads out of curiosity or because the topic is interesting, but I'm actually getting sick of all the hostility about it. I'm just here because certain topics in science and philosophy are interesting to me.

 

[SlidesandScaffolds]

scheherazade, I think it's because everyone wants to be "right". When they see people trying a different route to the same end, they think the other is stupid for going the "wrong" way. This engenders a feeling of superiority in most people, which leads to smugness/disdain, which leads to hostile action to "right" the "wrong". I think the problem with most religions is that those who lead us have become so enveloped in being the embodiment of justice, when we're only supposed to be teachers of law.

 

[kx000]

Im here to walk my path. Whoever wants to follow I don't mind, but at the end of the day if not with my love im better off by alone.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

I'm here because I enjoy the discussions, and I want to learn. If something that I say does help people, I would enjoy that too. And yes, I enjoy the chance to defend Christianism particularly Catholicism, as I feel that, at least in my experience, it has been badly misrepresented within the Science community, and I'd like to help fix some of those misrepresentations. and hey SciForm FAQ said: ''registration is free.''

 

[NMSquirrel]

Theists: Why are posting here, engaging in discussion?

I like to argue..
not here to convert anyone, you make your own decisions.
not here to argue right vs wrong.
I will argue against religion but not against God.
I like the 'Think tank' analogy..
Most believers are just as screwed up as the rest of us.
Most atheists are really Antitheists, they just don't know it.
I like to argue with the Antitheist..
most are pretty smart..


so yes, engaging discussions..

 

[scheherazade]

scheherazade, I think it's because everyone wants to be "right". When they see people trying a different route to the same end, they think the other is stupid for going the "wrong" way. This engenders a feeling of superiority in most people, which leads to smugness/disdain, which leads to hostile action to "right" the "wrong". I think the problem with most religions is that those who lead us have become so enveloped in being the embodiment of justice, when we're only supposed to be teachers of law.

'Right' and 'Wrong'.

To willfully harm another save in the extremes of self defense seems to be the most objective example of 'wrong', in my humble opinion.

There are a myriad of ways in which we may do harm unto another, often unintentionally, frequently unknowingly.

For every gain there is a loss, and whether one views anything as a positive or a negative depends entirely on their perspective.

'Right' and 'wrong' are subjective judgements that are determined by our experience of life.

 

[universaldistress]

Theist love-in. Disgusting. (tongue firmly in cheek).

(If) I (was a) theist (I would be) here trying to convince hardcore atheists that god is a possibility. And then maybe outline a realistic way god (could possibly) exist. Without shoving my BS belief down other people's throats with proclamations of "God exists cos I want him to!" and other interrelated bullshit.

 

[Adstar]

@Adstar --

Oh dear, the "atheists should just shut up, bend over, and take it like a good little bitch" argument again. Well you can, perhaps, pardon me for saying that you can stick that idea up your ass and swivel on it.

Water off a ducks back. Do you think your making a strong statement here??? No your not. Your not showing nobility your showing crassness. You’re not showing dignity but showing yourself to be undignified. Your no showing class just the filth that is within you.

We tried that for the past ten thousand years or so, and it really didn't work out too well. In fact it usually got us things like the Inquisition and the Holocaust.

I am not a catholic. And i am not a nazi. You don't know how many times a atheists has thrown that mud at me. It is soooooo boring. It's like they produce your kind in some mass production line all set up with the same boring old crap ready to spew out as an auto reaction to a theist.

So it's understandable that we might try to yank the steering wheel from you theists, after all, you've had control for the past ten thousand years or so, it's time to share.

satan has had control of this world for that time. My religion does not seek control of the world, we don't seek to be the authrotiy, we don't fight in wars. Your brain washed cut and paste does not work with me.

But to say that atheists "don't have the right" to be offended when we're told by a theist(usually with a grin on their face) that we're going to be eternally punished for a finite crime and then to say that Dyw is engaged in hate speech? You must be out of your mind.

So where have i said that you Arioch will be spending eternity in the lake of fire? Quote it you Liar. You offended at me it shows in this post and you reveal why you’re offended. So show us the quote where i an telling you that you Arioch are going to the lake of fire.

Of course you will not find any such quote. Why because you are a liar and a false accuser.

Half of your posts are the very definition of "derogatory, denigrating hate speech". Perhaps you should heed the words of your prophet and "remove the plank from your own eye before attending to the speck in your brother's".

I never try to remove the plank (faults) of my brothers. My brothers faults are between him and God and through the Messiah Jesus His faults are forgiven. I how ever do contend with my brothers about the faith but that is not about judging my brothers faults its about my brothers BELIEFS.

Actually i avoid using derogatory words like you use.

Of course, I already know that you won't, your posts betray your sentiments towards atheists and agnostics.

You know nothing of me in truth. All you know is that cut and paste stereotypical mass media produced view of christians and you use that as your glasses when ever you talk to a Christian.

Adstar said:
Hating on a Christian for revealing belief in damnation and the lake of fire is totally unjustified and immature at the same time.

Sure, of course this has never happened in my, albeit short, time here. Nor has it happened in the seven years I've been debating this topic(with roughly half that time being on the theist side of the debate). What I have seen happen is people bitch slapping the belief itself, not the person who stated it. The two are not the same thing, in fact they are quite different.

It has happened in this very post. You said you where justified in being offended because you where told you where going to the lake of fire. Who told you this? Was it me? NO.

So you have shown yourself to be both unjust AND an hypocrite to boot.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

“

Originally Posted by Adstar
As far as i am concerned. atheists don't have the right to get offended and act like dicks toward theists because the theist shares their belief in Judgement and damnation. Because it is a theists revealing what their Theism teaches them.

”
You're not just revealing what scripture teaches. An atheist can do that. You're embracing those teachings.

I am accepting of those teachings because i am embracing of the Love of God revealed through the Message of Jesus....

I am accepting because i have FAITH/TRUST in God's ultiamte wisdom.

Do i want people to go to the Lake of fire??? NO I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. I WOULD WISH NO ONE TO GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. But i bow toward the wisdom of God. God who has shown His love for mankind by coming in the flesh and dieing to save us from that place.

As I said in a different thread not so long ago:

“
To put it another way, what hope do you think there would be for real peace between two nations if, in spite of a mutual effort toward workable diplomatic relations, it was known that one of those nations considered the other to be so fundamentally flawed that they deserved to be destroyed?
”
My point in that thread was the same as it is in this thread:

“
As far as I am concerned, this is ultimately the idea from which the bulk of the conflict emerges.

What’s that got to do with me?

What’s that got to do with my Faith?

NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. I am a extremist pacifist. My Faith leads me to be an extremist pacifist. So how does my Faith have any relation to the above? Come on tell me..

Put that question to an Iranian shia fundamentalist if you like, but it’s got nothing to do with me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

It looks like Adstar's providing the perfect illustration for an idea about aggressive theist egoism that I suspect Signal was already thinking about when this thread was started.

Wait a minute. Why do you call my first post "aggresive" ?

As far as i can see it was a matter of fact statement with no aggression. The post that first introduced aggression in this thread was Dywyddyr he called my post a lie, and me a liar. See i react to that aggression by defending myself. I did not initiate any aggression.

Same with Arioch He opened up with some hard core aggression upon me without me ever saying anything to him in this thread. And again i defended myself and pointed out the falseness of his aggression towards me.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Your probably right . Signal is a very smart girl . What is religion with out tradition of locality anyway. Where does Adstar live again ? I would think the conception of God would be in-line with his daily peers they congregate with ?
No ? Yes ? Lone wolf?

I live in Australia one of the most un religious nations in the world. One with an atheist Prime Minister, Julia Gillard.


I guess that puts a dent into your theory.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Dywyddyr]

The post that first introduced aggression in this thread was Dywyddyr he called my post a lie, and me a liar.

Not quite: I also showed that you "were".
Also note that I used the word "deluded" not "liar".

See i react to that aggression by defending myself.

Yup, reacted, but didn't refute.

 

[Rav]

What’s that got to do with me?

What’s that got to do with my Faith?

NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. I am a extremist pacifist. My Faith leads me to be an extremist pacifist. So how does my Faith have any relation to the above? Come on tell me..

It's got everything to do with you since you believe that anyone who doesn't embrace your particular faith is "so fundamentally flawed that they deserved to be destroyed".

You can sit there and justify your reasons for that until the cows come home, but it wont change the fact that such beliefs give rise to conflict. That was the point I was making.

 

[Adstar]

scheherazade, I think it's because everyone wants to be "right". When they see people trying a different route to the same end, they think the other is stupid for going the "wrong" way. This engenders a feeling of superiority in most people, which leads to smugness/disdain, which leads to hostile action to "right" the "wrong". I think the problem with most religions is that those who lead us have become so enveloped in being the embodiment of justice, when we're only supposed to be teachers of law.

This forum is not about people going different ways to the same end. That point may play on religious forums with different theist beliefs represented.

But this forum is mostly interaction between Theists and atheists. We are not walking different ways to the same destination. We don't agree on the destination, atheists don't even believe there is a destination. Once they die they believe they cease to be.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

It's got everything to do with you since you believe that anyone who doesn't embrace your particular faith is "so fundamentally flawed that they deserved to be destroyed".

BUT NOT IN THIS WORLD.. NOT IN THIS LIFE..

So again. What you put forward has absolutely nothing to do with me. Because what you where talking about is the cause of conflict IN THIS WORLD, IN THIS LIFE.

If all people embraced my particular faith there would be no more wars in this world.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Dywyddyr]

Because what you where talking about is the cause of conflict IN THIS WORLD, IN THIS LIFE.

Is there any other?

If all people embraced my particular faith there would be no more wars in this world.

Supposition. (And not required).

 

[Adstar]

Not quite: I also showed that you "were".
Also note that I used the word "deluded" not "liar".

Oh my Don't you relaise i can quote your post in this thread???? Sometimes i think people must believe i cannot...

Lets see the quote shall we.

Dywyddyr

“
Originally Posted by Adstar
I come here to help people.
”

No, you didn't.

There you go. You open up your first post in this thread by calling me a Liar. Clear as day. What ever possesses you to deny something that is so easy to prove leaves me dumbfounded.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days