The Viral "Sinner" Mentality

[Revolvr]

I get it directly from the bible.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

And my all time favorites...

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Ahhh, I see you are most proficient at copying and pasting young grasshopper, but are you proficient at understanding?

There are indeed violent passages in the Old Testament. But Christians who use violence in the name of God have no justification for their actions from Jesus Christ, his life and teachings as found in the New Testament. Some Christians have indeed committed many horrible acts, but when they have done this, they have betrayed the very person that they claim to follow.

We find themes in the Old Testament of God is using Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of its sinfulness. Later in history God used other nations like the Assyrians and the Babylonians as His instruments to cleanse the land by destroying the people of Israel for their sinfulness. Keep in mind those passages were for a specific people, a specific time and place, and a specific purpose. Nowhere in the later Old Testament period do we see God commanding the nation of Israel to go and attack as a way to promote faith in God.

 

[SnakeLord]

For instance if a person tells you that fire burns, fire will burn regardless of your or his beliefs on the subject

In this instance we're talking about an invisible fire, with all different properties depending upon who is doing the preaching. My point.

I recall jesus gave less esoteric indications

Umm, was jesus that said it.

because he is omniscient, omnipotent etc he can achieve good results through irregular means

No. What you mean is: he's omnipotent thus he can do whatever the hell he wants and there's nothing you can do about it. Might does not make right, there's simply nobody to contest it.

 

[TruthSeeker]

This is quite the dilemma surely? What if I get preached to and decide to become christian but the preacher was only pretend, was not a genuine christian (tm)? Is there a test that can be done to work out who is a legitimate christian?

1 John 4:7,8
"7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. "

The only one I can think of is the poison/snake handling test.. So far I have found nobody willing to conduct it

What the hell is that? You shouldn't test God.

 

[TruthSeeker]

See above.

Let me ask that again. When did JESUS said we should murder in God's name?

 

[TruthSeeker]

As far as the Bush/Bin Laden case you've brought forth, I do not believe that the Iraq War was started purely from religious differences. That being said, I do, however, believe that religion does play a minor role in his decisions.

Bush is insane. So... yeah....

 

[Thoreau]

Ahhh, I see you are most proficient at copying and pasting young grasshopper, but are you proficient at understanding?

There are indeed violent passages in the Old Testament. But Christians who use violence in the name of God have no justification for their actions from Jesus Christ, his life and teachings as found in the New Testament. Some Christians have indeed committed many horrible acts, but when they have done this, they have betrayed the very person that they claim to follow.

We find themes in the Old Testament of God is using Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of its sinfulness. Later in history God used other nations like the Assyrians and the Babylonians as His instruments to cleanse the land by destroying the people of Israel for their sinfulness. Keep in mind those passages were for a specific people, a specific time and place, and a specific purpose. Nowhere in the later Old Testament period do we see God commanding the nation of Israel to go and attack as a way to promote faith in God.

Copying and pasting is easier than sitting here and typing it myself which takes MUCH longer to say the exact same thing. I'd much rather open an online bible and get it from there, than to grab my bible off my bookshelf and flip through the pages, and directly record it.

Look, if Christians follow the bible, and the bible clearly states that its ok to kill certain people, are you not a Christian? Like I said earlier, you cannot take out certain parts and call it good. Accept your religion for what it says instead of denying it. OR create another religion. Call it Jesusism or something. If your going to call yourself Christian and exclude major Christian points, then I suppose that doesn't make you Christian now does it? The majority of the Bible has actually very little to do with Jesus himself. Don't believe me? Sit back, spend however long it takes you to actually read the bible word for word, and then get back to me.

 

[Thoreau]

Oh and to whoever challenged my self-labelling as a freethinking...

I do concider myself a freethinker. I do not use religion, ANY religion, to influence my decision, whether it is about murder, or what I am going to eat for dinner.

Furthermore, I study everything presented without biasness. I listen to ones case, do the research on what's been exchanged, and draw an accurate conclusion, despite whether it meshes well with others or not.

 

[SnakeLord]

1 John 4:7,8
"7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. "

That's great but what does it test? Everyone loves someone, even Hitler loved - doesn't mean he knew god.

What the hell is that? You shouldn't test God.

Who's testing god?

You've got it wrong, nobody is testing god by doing that which he says they can do - they are testing themselves, their faith. We already accept that god can do the things he says he can. He says you will survive drinking poison if you have enough faith. So we know you will survive if you have enough faith. Nobody is testing god's words, we know he tells the truth.. we would indeed be testing you, testing your faith.

(I don't mean you as in you personally).

Anyone that can't clearly does not have enough faith and therefore is not the person to be listening to in matters of faith.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Copying and pasting is easier than sitting here and typing it myself which takes MUCH longer to say the exact same thing. I'd much rather open an online bible and get it from there, than to grab my bible off my bookshelf and flip through the pages, and directly record it.

Look, if Christians follow the bible, and the bible clearly states that its ok to kill certain people, are you not a Christian? Like I said earlier, you cannot take out certain parts and call it good. Accept your religion for what it says instead of denying it. OR create another religion. Call it Jesusism or something. If your going to call yourself Christian and exclude major Christian points, then I suppose that doesn't make you Christian now does it? The majority of the Bible has actually very little to do with Jesus himself. Don't believe me? Sit back, spend however long it takes you to actually read the bible word for word, and then get back to me.

You forgot the Bible is a collection of books written by various authors...

 

[TruthSeeker]

That's great but what does it test? Everyone loves someone, even Hitler loved - doesn't mean he knew god.

"Love one another" sounds pretty general. I suppose that means love everyone.

Who's testing god?

You've got it wrong, nobody is testing god by doing that which he says they can do - they are testing themselves, their faith. We already accept that god can do the things he says he can. He says you will survive drinking poison if you have enough faith. So we know you will survive if you have enough faith. Nobody is testing god's words, we know he tells the truth.. we would indeed be testing you, testing your faith.

(I don't mean you as in you personally).

Anyone that can't clearly does not have enough faith and therefore is not the person to be listening to in matters of faith.

It sounded like youw ere testing what God would do.

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

For instance if a person tells you that fire burns, fire will burn regardless of your or his beliefs on the subject
”
In this instance we're talking about an invisible fire, with all different properties depending upon who is doing the preaching. My point.

and my point is that the only people who advocate that is the case with religion as a whole tend to be people who have not seriously investigated religion

“
I recall jesus gave less esoteric indications
”
Umm, was jesus that said it.

yes, amongst other less esoteric things

“
because he is omniscient, omnipotent etc he can achieve good results through irregular means
”
No. What you mean is: he's omnipotent thus he can do whatever the hell he wants and there's nothing you can do about it. Might does not make right, there's simply nobody to contest it.

No

what I mean is that having recourse to omnipotence etc means that one can achieve results in ways that cannot be achieved by those that are not omnipotent etc ... hence its kind of stupid to expect an identical standard of activities in both situations

 

[SnakeLord]

"Love one another" sounds pretty general. I suppose that means love everyone.

How would one test to see if the person loves everyone? Also take into account it can be faked whereas surviving poison can't be.

--

I recall jesus gave less esoteric indications

I don't see where the word esoteric fits in any of this.

what I mean is that having recourse to omnipotence etc means that one can achieve results in ways that cannot be achieved by those that are not omnipotent etc

Sure, an omnipotent being can slaughter millions using a flood whereas a human can't, what's your point?

 

[lightgigantic]

I don't see where the word esoteric fits in any of this.

try comparing your reference to 1 John 4:7,8

Sure, an omnipotent being can slaughter millions using a flood whereas a human can't, what's your point?

that control of the living entities after death is also within the jurisdiction of omnipotence, hence its kind of stupid to expect that omnipotent and non-omnipotent personalities share identical codes of action

 

[Thoreau]

You forgot the Bible is a collection of books written by various authors...

You made a typo. You obviously meant a "contradiction..." and not "collection...".

 

[SnakeLord]

try comparing your reference to 1 John 4:7,8

I have already dealt with this issue. Having the ability to love is not an adequate test that someone is a genuine christian. It also still fails to indicate why you used the word esoteric.

that control of the living entities after death is also within the jurisdiction of omnipotence

Would you say then that if I develop some chemical or something that can bring people back from the dead, it's ok for me to kill them?

hence its kind of stupid to expect that omnipotent and non-omnipotent personalities share identical codes of action

Thus far you haven't said anything that makes it moral for a god to kill a being but not moral for another being to do the same.

 

[TruthSeeker]

You made a typo. You obviously meant a "contradiction..." and not "collection...".

LOL!!

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

try comparing your reference to 1 John 4:7,8
”
I have already dealt with this issue. Having the ability to love is not an adequate test that someone is a genuine christian. It also still fails to indicate why you used the word esoteric.

most people tend to have a more common familiarity with love than snake handling, so I guess it stands

“
that control of the living entities after death is also within the jurisdiction of omnipotence
”
Would you say then that if I develop some chemical or something that can bring people back from the dead, it's ok for me to kill them?

would having a chemical that enabled you to bring people back from the dead make you omnipotent?

“
hence its kind of stupid to expect that omnipotent and non-omnipotent personalities share identical codes of action
”
Thus far you haven't said anything that makes it moral for a god to kill a being but not moral for another being to do the same.

it is still stupid to expect that an omnipotent and a non- omnipotent (even if they have a life giving chemical at their disposal) personality share identical codes of action
:shrug:

 

[SnakeLord]

most people tend to have a more common familiarity with love than snake handling, so I guess it stands

In the context of testing whether someone is a true christian or not, that person should be just as familiar with faith - and thus, if they are a true christian, will be able to survive drinking poison. To test whether they actually have love for everyone or not is somewhat more complicated a task.

would having a chemical that enabled you to bring people back from the dead make you omnipotent?

This isn't an answer to what I asked. Try again.

it is still stupid to expect that an omnipotent and a non- omnipotent (even if they have a life giving chemical at their disposal) personality share identical codes of action

I don't understand what you're going on about. I stated that while we're talking of killing, god stands as the being who has achieved the largest count. You waffled on about omnipotence blah de blah which is fine - but you haven't explained how in this instance it is moral.

 

[ashura]

Thus far you haven't said anything that makes it moral for a god to kill a being but not moral for another being to do the same.

You would have to first define morality. For some theists, every decision God makes is moral because he's the source of all things good. Thus, it's fine and dandy for him to kill because it's fine and dandy for him to do whatever he wants. But if he says we shouldn't murder, then murdering on our part is evil.

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

most people tend to have a more common familiarity with love than snake handling, so I guess it stands
”
In the context of testing whether someone is a true christian or not, that person should be just as familiar with faith - and thus, if they are a true christian, will be able to survive drinking poison. To test whether they actually have love for everyone or not is somewhat more complicated a task.

gee you make it sound so simple

“
would having a chemical that enabled you to bring people back from the dead make you omnipotent?
”
This isn't an answer to what I asked. Try again.

I thought my answer was obvious - No

“
it is still stupid to expect that an omnipotent and a non- omnipotent (even if they have a life giving chemical at their disposal) personality share identical codes of action
”
I don't understand what you're going on about. I stated that while we're talking of killing, god stands as the being who has achieved the largest count.

then I bring to your attention the inherent differences between god and the living entity - namely that one possesses all potency and the other possesses virtually none

You waffled on about omnipotence blah de blah which is fine - but you haven't explained how in this instance it is moral.

If you insist that the omnipotent and the non-potent have identical parameters it is foolishness
:shrug: