The Viral "Sinner" Mentality

[lightgigantic]

My point is this. If some calls themselves Christian, who are you as another Christian to tell them that they're not? You cannot pick and pull the good parts of religion and seperate them from the bad and only accept the good, stating that the bad is not really Christian. There are good points and bad of every religion and its histories. Accept that your religion is not perfect instead of trying to refine it, at the exclusion of certain peoples and events.

first point - I am not a christian

second point - there is a plethora or normative descriptions in the bible that one could draw upon to deem who is and isn't a christian- IOW scripture is the authority for any issue related to theism - if you want to dismiss them and say anyone who says "I am a christian" in any particular context is a christian you are working with an overly simplistic (or politically broad) use of the term

 

[Thoreau]

first point - I am not a christian

second point - there is a plethora or normative descriptions in the bible that one could draw upon to deem who is and isn't a christian- IOW scripture is the authority for any issue related to theism - if you want to dismiss them and say anyone who says "I am a christian" in any particular context is a christian you are working with an overly simplistic (or politically broad) use of the term

first point - I wasn't directly referring to you, but rather religious people as a whole, despite any one religion.

second point - Yes I understand that scripture is the authority when it comes to any religion. However, just because one claims to be of a certain religion does not exclude them from doing immoral actions. If one is a Christian, then they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. But far too many people call themselves Christian and only follow certain negative aspects of Christianity, such as murder in God's name. But nevertheless they are no more or less Christian than someone that only follows the positive aspects of Christianity. Does this make sense?

 

[Revolvr]

Oh god. Another religious nut has joined our ranks.

You asked a religious question on a religious forum. What did you expect? Your question demonstrated a mis-understanding of the Christian faith. So I tried to explain it.

I certainly wouldn't try to change you. But you should at least base your beliefs on truth rather than some mush you've picked up somewhere.

If you want to learn about Christianity I recommend to start by reading the Gospel rather than some analysis someone else has done. When I decided to learn about Islam I went straight to the Qur'an for months before I went to any analysis web site. And even then I went to Muslim web sites first. Like Christianity the study of Islam is filled with those who have an agenda - on both sides. The only way to work through that is to go to the source.

 

[Thoreau]

You asked a religious question on a religious forum. What did you expect? Your question demonstrated a mis-understanding of the Christian faith. So I tried to explain it.

I certainly wouldn't try to change you. But you should at least base your beliefs on truth rather than some mush you've picked up somewhere.

If you want to learn about Christianity I recommend to start by reading the Gospel rather than some analysis someone else has done. When I decided to learn about Islam I went straight to the Qur'an for months before I went to any analysis web site. And even then I went to Muslim web sites first. Like Christianity the study of Islam is filled with those who have an agenda - on both sides. The only way to work through that is to go to the source.

I was raised a Christian and was a pious Christian for 17 years. I've read the bible many times and studied it from cover to back. However, as I grew older and with a more fuller understanding of the world and the bible, I realized that there were too many loopholes and contradicitions in order for me to continue a belief in something so demagogic as Christianity.

 

[Revolvr]

fBut far too many people call themselves Christian and only follow certain negative aspects of Christianity, such as murder in God's name. But nevertheless they are no more or less Christian than someone that only follows the positive aspects of Christianity. Does this make sense?

There is NO Christian doctrine that allows one to murder in God's name. Anyone who does is a nutcase and not a Christian. Where do you get this stuff? But that is quite different from fighting for freedom and against evil and tyranny. Only in Islam is there a blanket command to kill the unbelievers (according to many Islamic jurists.)

 

[TruthSeeker]

the vedas hold that the only eternal quality of the living entity is "goodness", which finds its foundation in a service attitude towards god - IOW we are all eternally servants of god.

The problem of material association is that we still have the same service attitude but we include god to a lesser or non existent role - IOW we focus in serving our family, friends, people or nation (or in material religious circles, they throw a god coloured cloth over their service attitude towards family, friends, nation etc) - from this foundation of service all material faults arise, simply because the foundation is not eternal. Thus materially "good" acts towards family, nation etc can quickly turn into materially "bad acts

Needless to say, the only means of (re) entering the eternal abode of god is through reviving one's eternal position as a servant of god and not through materially designated religious princples

What does it mean to be a "servant of god"? Spend the whole day praying?

 

[Thoreau]

There is NO Christian doctrine that allows one to murder in God's name. Anyone who does is a nutcase and not a Christian. Where do you get this stuff? But that is quite different from fighting for freedom and against evil and tyranny. Only in Islam is there a blanket command to kill the unbelievers (according to many Islamic jurists.)

I get it directly from the bible.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

And my all time favorites...

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

 

[TruthSeeker]

That is not how Christianity works. Christians see God as being perfect and good. There is no human who can ever be as good and perfect as God.

So? That doesn't mean that humans are terrible and deserve eternal damnation in a lake of fire. If your kid brakes your cellphone, are you going to throw your kid in eternal damnation in a lake of fire?

No matter how good and perfect a person is, he/she is still inherently sinful in God's eyes.

Just because we are not "perfect", doesn't mean we are terrible. Specially in God's eyes. Compared to God, we are not so great... but that doesn't mean we are terrible.

But the wages of sin are death, and the Christ paid for those sins with his torture and crucification. When a Christian is saved, through that gift and grace of God, God forgives the sinner provided the sinner truly repents sins, asks for forgiveness, and builds a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

True disciples of Jesus carry the cross with him. That's what he said. It's true that you don't need to be perfect to be saved, that you are not saved through your actions. However, it is also not true that all that you need to be saved is to state something.

What is a "sin"? What is "repentance"? And "forgiveness"? Those words are very dramatic words. We are imperfect, yes. But what we need to do is accept that we are imperfect and do what we can to improve ourselves. If you don't do that, you didn't "repent". Besides, God forgives everyone, bot not everyone forgives themselves.

The Holy Spirit dwells within the Christian, and a Christian can feel this presence. A Christian will reject sin and strive to be as Christ-like in his behavior as possible. The Holy Spirit helps to guide the Christian's life with an awareness of sin. A Christian detests sin, feels very guilty when he sins, avoids sin and tries to act as Christ would want him to.

A lot of Christians I've heard about don't fit that profile. Specially catholics.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Hitler was Christian...

He stated he was a christian. Anyone can do that for political power. See how religion affects politics in america today. A lot of candidates state they are christian just to appeal to the majority.

Besides, Hitler was crazy. He saw his dad raping his mother several times and wanted to protect his mother. He projected the image of his mother into Germany and father into what is Austria today. That's why he invaded Austria.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Some claim that Hitler lied when promoting religion, for political reasons (without citing a shred of evidence), but nothing in the historical record indicates this, nor would there appear any reason for him to do so. Even if he lied in Mein Kampf, why would he continue to consider himself a Christian after he held absolute German power? Why spend so much valuable resources to rid Germany of Jews if not from some profound justification? Hate of Jews alone cannot explain it. The hate must stem from some source and the historical record shows that anti-Judaism had long lived in the minds of Christians ever since Paul separated his community of believers from the law and people of Judaism.

I have a faint memory of how Hitler came to hate Jews. Hitler's hate for the Jews came after hearing a prominent speaker scapegoating Jews for their problems.

You need to study his childhood in order to understand the number of psychological disorders he possessed.




Now... I hope we can get back on topic.....

 

[TruthSeeker]

first point - I wasn't directly referring to you, but rather religious people as a whole, despite any one religion.

second point - Yes I understand that scripture is the authority when it comes to any religion. However, just because one claims to be of a certain religion does not exclude them from doing immoral actions. If one is a Christian, then they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. But far too many people call themselves Christian and only follow certain negative aspects of Christianity, such as murder in God's name. But nevertheless they are no more or less Christian than someone that only follows the positive aspects of Christianity. Does this make sense?

Where in the Bible did Jesus say we should murder in God's name?

 

[lightgigantic]

What does it mean to be a "servant of god"? Spend the whole day praying?

No

There is a whole range of activities just like there is a whole range of activities for the service of family, friends, nation etc

 

[TruthSeeker]

There is NO Christian doctrine that allows one to murder in God's name. Anyone who does is a nutcase and not a Christian. Where do you get this stuff?

Yes, unfortunately, people like Hitler state they are Christian, and the simple-minded will believe that simply because they have stated so. The problem is that a lot of people who claim to be christian believe that their actions are irrelevant as long as they state that "Jesus Christ is their Lord and saviour". That's what bugs me the most.

But that is quite different from fighting for freedom and against evil and tyranny. Only in Islam is there a blanket command to kill the unbelievers (according to many Islamic jurists.)

I don't think even Islam has commandments for that, actually. It's all crap from people who state they are muslims.

 

[TruthSeeker]

No

There is a whole range of activities just like there is a whole range of activities for the service of family, friends, nation etc

I asked the question because I want to hear a full answer.

You see... serving God is not a matter of prayer. It's a matter of actions. Your actions will tell whether you are truly a Christian or not, not what you say. Jesus warned us about this...

 

[ashura]

MZ3, for someone who's self titled a free thinker, you seem to have fallen into the easy trap of "blame everything on religion." A good number of the conflicts that I recognized in your long list might have used religion as a guise but were really caused by social, economic and political reasons. I'm sure if I decided to personally go through every conflict on that list, I can make that statement for the majority of them.

If you really believe the claim you made, then you must also believe that President Bush's war is one based on his Christian faith, or that the primary reason Osama Bin Laden is waging war against us is because he's a Muslim and our nation is predominantly Christian. Do you believe either of the two?

 

[lightgigantic]

I asked the question because I want to hear a full answer.

You see... serving God is not a matter of prayer. It's a matter of actions. Your actions will tell whether you are truly a Christian or not, not what you say. Jesus warned us about this...

thus actions are coupled with proper meditation/awareness/consciousness.

Prayer is an important contributer to attaining such a state

Practically speaking, two people may be performing the same activity, but their consciousness may be completely different.

For instance one person may be maintaining their family nicely thinking that they are their all and everything while another person may be maintaining their family nicely thinking that they have been given charge of them by god and that it is their duty to provide for them.

 

[SnakeLord]

He stated he was a christian. Anyone can do that for political power

This is quite the dilemma surely? What if I get preached to and decide to become christian but the preacher was only pretend, was not a genuine christian (tm)? Is there a test that can be done to work out who is a legitimate christian? The only one I can think of is the poison/snake handling test.. So far I have found nobody willing to conduct it

Oh and while everyone is arguing about who has killed more - theists or atheists, the answer is ultimately god himself that, well, killed everyone. Every living thing on the planet minus 8. And that's just one man slaughtering event out of a long damn list. Nobody and nothing comes close to being that big a man slaughtering bastard as the almighty.

 

[Thoreau]

Where in the Bible did Jesus say we should murder in God's name?

See above.

MZ3, for someone who's self titled a free thinker, you seem to have fallen into the easy trap of "blame everything on religion." A good number of the conflicts that I recognized in your long list might have used religion as a guise but were really caused by social, economic and political reasons. I'm sure if I decided to personally go through every conflict on that list, I can make that statement for the majority of them.

If you really believe the claim you made, then you must also believe that President Bush's war is one based on his Christian faith, or that the primary reason Osama Bin Laden is waging war against us is because he's a Muslim and our nation is predominantly Christian. Do you believe either of the two?

First of all, I do not blame everything on religion. There have been many atrocities by humans throughtout history that had nothing to do with religion. However, I do believe that organized religion has done more harm than good, only because of its interpretations from its believers. I believe that if people acted out of goodness and morality instead of following to a T thier 2000 year old books told them to do, then yes, I truly believe that we would be a much happier and more peace and productive species. I truly believe that you do not need religion in order to have good morals.

As far as the Bush/Bin Laden case you've brought forth, I do not believe that the Iraq War was started purely from religious differences. That being said, I do, however, believe that religion does play a minor role in his decisions.

Bin Laden is another story. His motives spawn from his religion but stretch further into politcal power and influence. As for thier prosecution of Christian nations because of thier Muslim backgrounds, I do not believe that being Christian is the only reason why they hate us. I think again, most of it has to do with politics at the exclusion of religion.

 

[lightgigantic]

This is quite the dilemma surely? What if I get preached to and decide to become christian but the preacher was only pretend, was not a genuine christian (tm)?

if the instructions are valid, even if they are heard by a person who isn't practicing, the effect still comes to bear if you follow them.
For instance if a person tells you that fire burns, fire will burn regardless of your or his beliefs on the subject

Is there a test that can be done to work out who is a legitimate christian? The only one I can think of is the poison/snake handling test.. So far I have found nobody willing to conduct it

I recall jesus gave less esoteric indications

Oh and while everyone is arguing about who has killed more - theists or atheists, the answer is ultimately god himself that, well, killed everyone. Every living thing on the planet minus 8. And that's just one man slaughtering event out of a long damn list. Nobody and nothing comes close to being that big a man slaughtering bastard as the almighty.

such is the nature of god

because he is omniscient, omnipotent etc he can achieve good results through irregular means (unlike us, who are required to adhere to general moral guidelines to achieve similar results ... because we are not omnnimax)

 

[TruthSeeker]

thus actions are coupled with proper meditation/awareness/consciousness.

Prayer is an important contributer to attaining such a state

Practically speaking, two people may be performing the same activity, but their consciousness may be completely different.

For instance one person may be maintaining their family nicely thinking that they are their all and everything while another person may be maintaining their family nicely thinking that they have been given charge of them by god and that it is their duty to provide for them.

Sadly, most people are not deep-thinkers like us. :shrug:

I agree with you.