The two state solution fate

[StrawDog]

SAM, the Jews never even got close to taking 53% of the land again just look at the Palestinian Mandate:

And this is what the Jews recieved in U.N. 181:

Just compairing visually it becomes apparent that the Jews didn't recieve any where near 53% of the Mandate of Palestine, on which to establish Israel.

The Jews actually only recieved 18% of the the Lands of the Palestinian Mandate, the Arabs recieved the other 82%, all of the Transjordan

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Proposed separation of Palestine. Main article: 1947 UN Partition Plan ...... Israel was created only on 18% of the total area of Palestine and Jordan. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War - 251k - Similar pages

In reality, the Jews got 100% of the land they never had. The "we only got 53%" is a construct that misrepresents the fact that the Jews started out with no actual legitimate claim to even 1% of Palestine.

 

[ElectricFetus]

StrawDog,

So the Zionist got land they did not deserve, what should we do about it now?

 

[StrawDog]

StrawDog,

So the Zionist got land they did not deserve, what should we do about it now?

Find a solution via unconditional dialogue.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Find a solution via unconditional dialogue.

that rather vague, but sure why not, what do you think hamas and the israeli can agree on that they haven't?

 

[StrawDog]

that rather vague, but sure why not, what do you think hamas and the israeli can agree on that they haven't?

To achieve even initial agreement to engage in dialogue is going to be difficult, but if sanity prevails, it can follow this course.

Firstly, to get the ball rolling, both parties would have to agree to a 100% unconditional ceasefire. Enforced by whoever. (UN)

Israel would have to accept Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza. Hamas (and other Palestinian bodies) would have to, in principle, agree to Israels right to exist. Hamas would have to agree to an all inclusive (Fatah & other) representation for the Palestinian delegation.

Once that is achieved, the first stage of dialogue has to be utterly unconditional. IOW no pre conditions whatsoever. The inclusion of neutral but experienced mediation is essential.

Then it would be up to the level of honesty and commitment to a lasting peaceful resolution by the delegations, as to how much headway can be made.

This is simplistically put, but the essentials for constructive dialogue.

 

[ElectricFetus]

To achieve even initial agreement to engage in dialogue is going to be difficult, but if sanity prevails, it can follow this course.

Firstly, to get the ball rolling, both parties would have to agree to a 100% unconditional ceasefire. Enforced by whoever. (UN)

Israel would have to accept Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza. Hamas (and other Palestinian bodies) would have to, in principle, agree to Israels right to exist. Hamas would have to agree to an all inclusive (Fatah & other) representation for the Palestinian delegation.

Once that is achieved, the first stage of dialogue has to be utterly unconditional. IOW no pre conditions whatsoever. The inclusion of neutral but experienced mediation is essential.

Then it would be up to the level of honesty and commitment to a lasting peaceful resolution by the delegations, as to how much headway can be made.

This is simplistically put, but the essentials for constructive dialogue.

I agree dialogue would be nice but it hasn't happened, there a higher chance Israel would block off all of Palestine and pull out there settlements then that, and even that has nill chances.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hasn't Netanyahu, the Yum Israel Chai candidate won the elections? Or is it the "moderate" Livni who simply prefers to starve and transfer the Palestinians?

 

[pjdude1219]

In reality, the Jews got 100% of the land they never had. The "we only got 53%" is a construct that misrepresents the fact that the Jews started out with no actual legitimate claim to even 1% of Palestine.

um yes they do the problem is not wether a legit claim exists but the strength of said claim

 

[StrawDog]

um yes they do the problem is not wether a legit claim exists but the strength of said claim

It seems possession is 9/10ths of the law.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

In reality, the Jews got 100% of the land they never had. The "we only got 53%" is a construct that misrepresents the fact that the Jews started out with no actual legitimate claim to even 1% of Palestine.

Really, Who held title to the land before the British Mandate?

One of the reasons that the Borders of the Two States were draw where they were was because of land ownership, who held legal title and deed to the Land.

Now under the original League of Nations Mandate, the Jews were suppose to receive all of the Mandate as a Home Land, so who was robbed?

Again, out of the British Mandate of Palestine the Arabs received 82% of the land, and That land was East of the Jordan.

The Jews were left with 20% of the land, and in the end the Arabs took another 53%, and that wasn't enough, they went to war to take the rest, steal legally held land from the Jews who held title and deed from the Ottomans, and were registered under the Mandate in the census as owners of the land.

And as a Distinct social, ethnic and religious community had the same right to self determination as the rest of the people in the break up of the Mandate of Palestine.

There have always been Jews in the Lands West of the Jordan, they owned those lands, and that was the Land of Israel.

The only reason the Arab interlopers are there is because of conquest.

So they to in their turn lost the land by conquest.

Now thanks to pj and his citation, he has proven there is no right of return for Arabs of Palestine.

Look up:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (III)
11 December 1948

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;​

No where do it say anything about Palestinians, it says refugees who wish to return in Peace.

It also says:

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation,....resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation,

You will also notice that Resettlement and Repatriation are listed as two separate things.

No where in 194 and 242 does it say that all Arab Palestinians have a right to return, or that Israel has to let them return, unless it is under absolute peace.

And then only those who were actually born there.

 

[S.A.M.]

And then only those who were actually born there.

Quite the double standard there. How many Americans, Russians and Europeans move to Palestine everyday?

How come Leiberman, a Soviet bouncer from a nightclub can live in the West Bank and visit Jerusalem, while a Palestinian born there or whose father/grandfather is buried there needs to prove a right to return to his home?

 

[nirakar]

Really, Who held title to the land before the British Mandate?

Hi Buffalo Roam, I made this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2168312#post2168312 as a response to you.

We will never agree on much, but I suspect you share my love of maps.

You were strangely absent for the last 36 hours. In the mean time mods removed your name from the threads Tittle and moved the thread from World Events to history.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Quote]

Quite the double standard there. How many Americans, Russians and Europeans move to Palestine everyday?

None as far as I know.

How come Leiberman, a Soviet bouncer from a nightclub can live in the West Bank and visit Jerusalem, while a Palestinian born there or whose father/grandfather is buried there needs to prove a right to return to his home?

Well, talk to the U.N., they are the ones who came up with U.N. 195, and 242.

Plus one other small thing, the Arabs lost, and lets get this straight, they are Arabs, there is no such thing as a Palestinian, never was and never will be.

Palestinian is nothing more than a political construct by the Arabs after they got their butts handed to them for the 3rd time.

This fact is also clearly expressed in the covenant of Fatah,
the ruling faction of the PLO:
http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm#Goals

The Movement's Essential Principles:
Article (1) Palestine is part of the Arab World, and the
Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation, and their
struggle is part of its struggle.


http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Zahir-Muhsein

Encyclopedia > Zahir Muhsein
Zahir Muhsein is a PLO executive committee member.


In a 1977 interview with a Dutch magazine, he said:

"Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. (source: Boston Herald column (http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/feder06242002.htm))


Zuhair Mohsen is perhaps most widely known in the West for having made the following statement in a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

^ Friedman, From Beirut to Jerusalem (HarperCollins Publishers, 1998, 2nd ed.), p. 118
^ See for example this page


Do you think Zahir Muhsein is alone? This transparent fraud about the so-called existence of Palestine is revealed to us by all Arab leaders.

In 1974, the late Syrian President, Hafez al-Assad,declared, “It would be fitting for us to mention to the responsible Israeli authorities that we view Palestine not just as an inseparable part of the Arab nation, but also as a part of southern Syria.” In 1987 he reiterated this at a conference in Amman by saying, “A country named ‘Palestine’ has never existed.” Jordan’s King Hussein responded, “The appearance of the national Palestinian persona serves as a response to Israel’s claim that Palestine is Jewish.”

Yet the prize goes to Yasir Arafat who, in 1970 with candid simplicity, told the reporter Arianna Palazzi, “The question of borders doesn’t interest us… From the Arab standpoint, we mustn’t talk about borders. Palestine is nothing but a drop in an enormous ocean. Our nation is the Arabic nation that stretches from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea and beyond it… The PLO is fighting Israel in the name of Pan-Arabism. What you call ‘Jordan’ is nothing more than Palestine.”

All the same, there is nothing like the testimony of a PLO founder, Ahmed Shukari. Already in 1956 he proclaimed from the UN podium, as the Arab League’s ambassador there, “Such a creature as Palestine does not exist at all. This land is nothing but the southern portion of Greater Syria…”
And if Ahmed Shukari says that Palestine does not exist at all, the logical inference is that “Palestinians” also do not exist. That same Shukari was born to a Turkish mother in Lebanon, was a Jordanian lawyer, served as the Syrian ambassador to the UN, the Arab League’s ambassador to the UN, and the Saudi’s UN ambassador. In 1964, after this talented actor who changed loyalties like a chameleon was fired by the Saudis, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser hired him to found the PLO, an organization dedicated to the “liberation” of a country that – in his own words – did not even exist.

 

[dysplasia]

"None as far as I know."

Odd that you choose bigotry and ignorance as completely transparent tactics to deny the Jewish practice of inflating their numbers with Jews who were born outside of Israel, then (or not, perhaps).

 

[Buffalo Roam]

"None as far as I know."

Odd that you choose bigotry and ignorance as completely transparent tactics to deny the Jewish practice of inflating their numbers with Jews who were born outside of Israel, then (or not, perhaps).

Yes, the typical liberal response to anyone who disagree with your truncated puerile views, they are automatically a bigot.

Well, please provide any evidence that the Arabs of Palestine are a separate race by genome from the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula, that that the Palestinian Arab Genome developed in that local.

There has never been a Race of Palestinians, and from the citation's quoted from the Arab Leadership, both Arab States and Palestinian, leadership they admit to the political lie of the Palestinian.

Now show refutation of the quotes by, President, Hafez al-Assad,Yasir Arafat, PLO founder, Ahmed Shukari

that these statement and admissions were not made in speeches and interviews by the Arab Leadership Quoted.

Truth, is that there never was a Palestinian, of a Palestine, they are Arabs who came as conquers, and in this turn were conquered.

Fact of History, History of the World, from the beginning of Time.

 

[S.A.M.]

The UN resolution was conditional on the Palestinian rights being protected. The Israelis never did abide by the resolution. They stole the land, dispossessed the natives and replaced them with foreign Jews.

Anyway, the UN resolution was illegal. I do not agree that the UN has a right to give away indigenous lands to anyone based on religion. Just because someone abuses their power against those they should protect, it does not make it right. The German Jews should go to Germany, the Russian Jews to Russia, etc. They should ask themselves why they are willing to dispossess Palestinians for their tribal affiliations.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The UN resolution was conditional on the Palestinian rights being protected. The Israelis never did abide by the resolution. They stole the land, dispossessed the natives and replaced them with foreign Jews.

Provide citation that states that in plain english.

Anyway, the UN resolution was illegal. I do not agree that the UN has a right to give away indigenous lands to anyone based on religion. Just because someone abuses their power against those they should protect, it does not make it right. The German Jews should go to Germany, the Russian Jews to Russia, etc. They should ask themselves why they are willing to dispossess Palestinians for their tribal affiliations.

It was? great, then there was no law governing that land area, and it was open to who even could hold it, and look up the definition of Indigenous:

The term indigenous peoples or autochthonous peoples can be used to describe any ethnic group of people who inhabit a geographic region with which they have the earliest known historical connection, alongside migrants which have populated the region and which are greater in number.[1]

^ Peoples of the world by National Geographic Society

Now how about the Arabs in Palestine going back to the Arab countries they came from, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, most of the Arabs of Palestine were recient immagrants to the Palestine, west of the Jordan


http://www.meforum.org/article/522

The Arab Palestinian populations within those sub-districts that eventually became Israel increased from 321,866 in 1922 to 463,288 in 1931 or by 141,422. Applying the 2.5 per annum natural rate of population growth to the 1922 Arab Palestinian population generates an expected population size for 1931 of 398,498 or 64,790 less than the actual population recorded in the British census. By imputation, this unaccounted population increase must have been either illegal immigration not accounted for in the British census and/or registered Arab Palestinians moving from outside the Jewish-identified sub-districts to those sub-districts so identified. This 1922-31 Arab migration into the Jewish sub-districts represented 11.8 percent of the total 1931 Arab population residing in those sub-districts and as much as 36.8 percent of its 1922-31 growth.

That over 10 percent of the 1931 Arab Palestinian population in those sub-districts that eventually became Israel had immigrated to those sub-districts within the 1922-31 years is a datum of considerable significance. It is consistent with the fragmentary evidence of illegal migration to and within Palestine; it supports the idea of linkage between economic disparities and migratory impulses—a linkage universally accepted; it undercuts the thesis of "spatial stickiness" attributed by some scholars to the Arab Palestinian population of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries; and it provides strong circumstantial evidence that the illegal Arab immigration into Palestine, like that within Palestine, was of consequence as well.

 

[S.A.M.]

The "Arabs" of Palestine are where they have always been. The Jews are moving in from the US, Europe and Russia. After 1000s of years.

Too bad they are brainwashed from birth:

I’ll confess it, at least: like thousands of other typical Jewish kids of my generation, I was reared as a Jewish nationalist, even a quasi-separatist. Every summer for two months for 10 formative years during my childhood and adolescence I attended Jewish summer camp. There, each morning, I saluted a foreign flag, dressed in a uniform reflecting its colors, sang a foreign national anthem, learned a foreign language, learned foreign folk songs and dances, and was taught that Israel was the true homeland. Emigration to Israel was considered the highest virtue, and, like many other Jewish teens of my generation, I spent two summers working in Israel on a collective farm while I contemplated that possibility. More tacitly and subconsciously, I was taught the superiority of my people to the gentiles who had oppressed us. We were taught to view non-Jews as untrustworthy outsiders, people from whom sudden gusts of hatred might be anticipated, people less sensitive, intelligent, and moral than ourselves. We were also taught that the lesson of our dark history is that we could rely on no one

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/stephen_steinlight.htm

 

[pjdude1219]

Now thanks to pj and his citation, he has proven there is no right of return for Arabs of Palestine.

No I proved that the palestinian right of self determination still exists despite it being denied. I also conclusively proved that Israel's creation was in fact Illegal. Just because you only read part of sources doesn't mean they say what you want. You have to read the whole thing with an open mind.


also Why do you continue to argue something that is irrelevant? the palestinain arabs as a seperate race doesn't matter.

General assembly resolutions don't have the force of law as you proved. Your always going to lose a argument(like you just did) if you don't keep track of the history of whats been said. It goes with out saying that its pathetic that you can't even keep together your own major conclusions and points.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No I proved that the palestinian right of self determination still exists despite it being denied. I also conclusively proved that Israel's creation was in fact Illegal. Just because you only read part of sources doesn't mean they say what you want. You have to read the whole thing with an open mind.


also Why do you continue to argue something that is irrelevant? the palestinain arabs as a seperate race doesn't matter.

General assembly resolutions don't have the force of law as you proved. Your always going to lose a argument(like you just did) if you don't keep track of the history of whats been said. It goes with out saying that its pathetic that you can't even keep together your own major conclusions and points.

You have proved nothing, except that your reading, word comprehension, and logic, are below par, way below par.

Every thing that you have cited as proof applies to the Jews more than to the Arabs of Palestine.

Arabs, of Palestine, not Palestinians, as admitted to by the Arab State leadership , and the Arab Palestinian Leadership:

Do you think Zahir Muhsein founder of the PLO, is alone? This transparent fraud about the so-called existence of Palestine is revealed to us by all Arab leaders.

“ In 1974, the late Syrian President, Hafez al-Assad,declared, “It would be fitting for us to mention to the responsible Israeli authorities that we view Palestine not just as an inseparable part of the Arab nation, but also as a part of southern Syria.” In 1987 he reiterated this at a conference in Amman by saying, “A country named ‘Palestine’ has never existed.” Jordan’s King Hussein responded, “The appearance of the national Palestinian persona serves as a response to Israel’s claim that Palestine is Jewish.” ”

“ Yet the prize goes to Yasir Arafat who, in 1970 with candid simplicity, told the reporter Arianna Palazzi, “The question of borders doesn’t interest us… From the Arab standpoint, we mustn’t talk about borders. Palestine is nothing but a drop in an enormous ocean. Our nation is the Arabic nation that stretches from the Atlantic Ocean to the Red Sea and beyond it… The PLO is fighting Israel in the name of Pan-Arabism. What you call ‘Jordan’ is nothing more than Palestine.” ”

All the same, there is nothing like the testimony of a PLO founder, Ahmed Shukari. Already in 1956 he proclaimed from the UN podium, as the Arab League’s ambassador there, “Such a creature as Palestine does not exist at all. This land is nothing but the southern portion of Greater Syria…” And if Ahmed Shukari says that Palestine does not exist at all, the logical inference is that “Palestinians” also do not exist. That same Shukari was born to a Turkish mother in Lebanon, was a Jordanian lawyer, served as the Syrian ambassador to the UN, the Arab League’s ambassador to the UN, and the Saudi’s UN ambassador. In 1964, after this talented actor who changed loyalties like a chameleon was fired by the Saudis, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser hired him to found the PLO, an organization dedicated to the “liberation” of a country that – in his own words – did not even exist.

It is the Jews who are the people who were looking for self determination, and fit the definition that you have presented, not the Arabs of Palestine.