The Trump Presidency

[Quantum Quack]

From an Australian perspective, it is perplexing that Trump can seek to diminish USA global power/leadership and simultaneously be a member of what is typically rather aggressive Republican party.
What members of the republican party must be thinking when they see their leader behave the way he did at G20.

Personally it is worth noting that the relationship between the USA and Russia is mostly about paranoia and that any steps to get over the enigma of the old ways of thinking ( Globalization makes this inevitable IMO) is a good thing IMO.

Trump, even as naive as he is may be, could be "inadvertently" or with some deliberate planning be seen to be breaking down that fear based barrier between the USA and Russia and getting into more realistic turf economically and militarily.

After all he is a good friend of Putin and probably can't understand what all the huff is about.

It will be interesting to see if Putin decides to take advantage of Trumps naivety on the world stage or honors his apparent friendship.

The thing to seriously consider here is that old ways of thinking have to be seriously modified. The world is changing very quickly in so many ways.

• The end of fossil fuel dependency. ( never thought I'd see it in my lifetime)
• The serious change in the economic power bases around the world
• Massive change in news and other media.
• The huge push for anti corruption and democratization of most government.
• GMO foods and crops
• Huge issues regarding excessive heat and record flooding, ( requiring adaptation and contingency planning)

and the list goes on...

adaptation, resilience and flexibility are the keys needed IMO

For the world to survive the human race has to work together and perhaps Trump is inadvertently moving the USA in to a more team based position...by calling the Russian, China etc. enigma for what it is.

....but most importantly dropping all the baggage of past cynicism regarding what used to be hostile and overly competitive relationships between global powers.

Just thoughts...

 

[iceaura]

From an Australian perspective, it is perplexing that Trump can seek to diminish USA global power/leadership and simultaneously be a member of what is typically rather aggressive Republican party.

He's not diminishing the military. He's not reining in the corporations and financiers.

He's behaving as a typical Republican President since Nixon, actually - merely more vulgar and blatant and personally unpleasant about it.

The kind of soft power from statesmanship and moral suasion and visionary authority Trump is throwing away was likewise crippled and diminished by W&Cheney - and Reagan (Ronnie was kind of an ugly joke by the end of his tenure as well). The only Republican since Eisenhower to organize and wield it, even a little, possibly, was Bush Sr.

After all he is a good friend of Putin and probably can't understand what all the huff is about.

He is not a good friend of Putin's. If he thinks he is, things will go very badly for him.

 

[Quantum Quack]

He's not diminishing the military. He's not reining in the corporations and financiers.

He's behaving as a typical Republican President since Nixon, actually - merely more vulgar and blatant and personally unpleasant about it.

The kind of soft power from statesmanship and moral suasion and visionary authority Trump is throwing away was likewise crippled and diminished by W&Cheney - and Reagan (Ronnie was kind of an ugly joke by the end of his tenure as well). The only Republican since Eisenhower to organize and wield it, even a little, possibly, was Bush Sr.

Perhaps...

He is not a good friend of Putin's. If he thinks he is, things will go very badly for him.

Oh come now, his personal friendship with Putin has been obvious from day one of his campaign.

It is just that USA citizens who lived through the Cold War may deem that friendship as inappropriate and fear based speculation fuels all sorts of conspiracy theories. ( suspicion, cynicism, skepticism, paranoid speculations)

• Corrupt collusion
• back doors
• Foreign nation providing Electoral help
• Leaking sensitive intel.

and so on...
all of which could be a paranoid interpretation of what friends would normally do for each other.

I am not saying it's right or wrong... just that any "illegal" activity may very well be two mates helping each other out...and not much more than that....

 

[Quantum Quack]

If you were historically a long term (10years say) good friend of a Russian called Putin and suddenly found yourself running for POTUS and eventually succeed in gaining the position, how would you manage that friendship?

 

[iceaura]

Oh come now, his personal friendship with Putin has been obvious from day one of his campaign.

What?

I would be very, very surprised if Putin had the slightest personal regard for Trump.

I'm sure Putin has friends. If Donald Trump is one of them, Russia is in even bigger trouble than it looks.

And if Donald Trump thinks for one minute that Vladimir Putin is his friend, this story is going to gain dimensions of farce heretofore unseen in American politics. A normal guy you could have sympathy for, when punked and betrayed and ruined - Trump? It's spelled "k a r m a", it's pronounced "ha ha ha ha ha"

 

[Quantum Quack]

What?

I would be very, very surprised if Putin had the slightest personal regard for Trump.

I'm sure Putin has friends. If Donald Trump is one of them, Russia is in even bigger trouble than it looks.

And if Donald Trump thinks for one minute that Vladimir Putin is his friend, this story is going to gain dimensions of farce heretofore unseen in American politics.

Uhm, in case you hadn't noticed... it has been an incredible farce...never seen before in USA politics...
Even with Ivanka bombing the Trump chair at the G20 says heaps...
one farce after another....

 

[joepistole]

From an Australian perspective, it is perplexing that Trump can seek to diminish USA global power/leadership and simultaneously be a member of what is typically rather aggressive Republican party.
What members of the republican party must be thinking when they see their leader behave the way he did at G20.

Personally it is worth noting that the relationship between the USA and Russia is mostly about paranoia and that any steps to get over the enigma of the old ways of thinking ( Globalization makes this inevitable IMO) is a good thing IMO.

Trump, even as naive as he is may be, could be "inadvertently" or with some deliberate planning be seen to be breaking down that fear based barrier between the USA and Russia and getting into more realistic turf economically and militarily.

After all he is a good friend of Putin and probably can't understand what all the huff is about.

It will be interesting to see if Putin decides to take advantage of Trumps naivety on the world stage or honors his apparent friendship.

The thing to seriously consider here is that old ways of thinking have to be seriously modified. The world is changing very quickly in so many ways.

• The end of fossil fuel dependency. ( never thought I'd see it in my lifetime)
• The serious change in the economic power bases around the world
• Massive change in news and other media.
• The huge push for anti corruption and democratization of most government.
• GMO foods and crops
• Huge issues regarding excessive heat and record flooding, ( requiring adaptation and contingency planning)

and the list goes on...

adaptation, resilience and flexibility are the keys needed IMO

For the world to survive the human race has to work together and perhaps Trump is inadvertently moving the USA in to a more team based position...by calling the Russian, China etc. enigma for what it is.

....but most importantly dropping all the baggage of past cynicism regarding what used to be hostile and overly competitive relationships between global powers.

Just thoughts...

Putin has already taken advantage of Trump and he will continue to do so as long as Trump lives. Trump is a Russian asset.

Two, as an American, and having grown up during the Cold War, and having been trained for a nuclear attack in grade school, I don't think Americans much fear Russia. Most Americans want a more aggressive stance toward Russia, because that is what is called for. If we learned anything from WW II we should have learned appeasement doesn't work.

Russia is a regional power, and isn't a match for the US, no matter how you slice the pie. For some perspective, the economy of just one American city is larger than the entire Russian economy. What Americans want is democratic and peaceful Russia which plays by the rules.

Yeah, the US is under assault. It has become a victim of fake news brought about in no small part by your Ruppert Murdoch. But thus far our democratic institutions are holding. Trump and Putin are discovering it's a little more difficult to takeover the US government than they had anticipated. American democratic institutions and traditions run deep. Let's hope they hold.

 

[iceaura]

Uhm, in case you hadn't noticed... it has been an incredible farce...never seen before in USA politics...

So far we've been running along at about W level, Palin level, for farce. Regular post-Reagan Republican. Trump's Republican, remember.

Check out the wink W gives Putin at 28 seconds in - after the shoulder grope. Putin's been the very special friend of a gullible US President before. But W never, afaik, actually trusted the man. W had good advice handy in that regard.

But what would happen to Trump if he trusted Putin as a friend would come in on another level entirely.

 

[joepistole]

Republican senators are ridiculing Trump for god-sake! That just doesn't happen, unless the Republican POTUS is really that stupid. Unfortunately for the nation, Trump really is that stupid.

But none of that matters as long as Trump enjoys the support of Fox News. Trump's devotees will never hear the truth unless and until Fox News tells them truth. Given Fox's history that ain't happening anytime soon.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I herd it on a good rumor... that after his visit wit Putin... thers gonna be a new investigation to see if Trump has any connections to US.!!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

.... and Donald leaned over the large card table placed in the center of a dimly lit back room where anonymity is guarranteed.

"Vlad, Vlad I have decided to run for President of the US of A... what do ya think about that?"
Vlad almost spilt his Vodka when he responded
"Don, if you vin I vill pay you your campaign expenses."
"Bitcoin good?"
"Yepo hugely"

 

[geordief]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40552571

"Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin had sought to defend the proposed cyber unit after Mr Trump's initial announcement.
Speaking on ABC's This Week programme, he described it as a "significant accomplishment" for Mr Trump."

Sounded good to me too

 

[joepistole]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40552571

"Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin had sought to defend the proposed cyber unit after Mr Trump's initial announcement.
Speaking on ABC's This Week programme, he described it as a "significant accomplishment" for Mr Trump."

Sounded good to me too

After seeing the reaction to his cyber unit, Trump is backing off his cyber unit. Mnuchin went out on a branch to defend Trump, and Trump cut off that branch just as he did with House Republicans on healthcare.

 

[geordief]

Mnuchin looks like bit of a tit

 

[joepistole]

Trump Junior has changed his story several times now. First, there was no meeting. Then there was a meeting, but it wasn’t about campaign stuff, it was about Russian orphans. Then the meeting was about campaign stuff, but the Russian was crazy so they talked about Russian orphans. So the Russian lawyer can talk about orphan issues rationally but cannot talk about campaign issues rationally. Hmm….what's next? His story keeps changing.

By the way, orphan issue really isn't an orphan issue as much as it is a sanctions issue. In 2012 the US imposed economic sanctions on Russia for human rights violations. This lawyer wanted those sanctions removed.

And here is the thing; Junior wasn't alone in the meeting. The meeting was attended by Kushner and Manafort. I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but this is yet another previously undisclosed meeting with Russians. How many more undisclosed meetings are there? When it comes to all things Russia it seems Trump's closest advisers have developed a case of selective Alzheimer's. This is yet another meeting with Russians Trump's closest advisers failed to disclose to authorities as they were required by law to do. Given the evidence, I can understand why Trump's advisers have lawyered up. They need it.

I wonder where the Russian lawyer is. I pretty sure Putin’s thugs are wondering the same thing. She might become another of Putin’s loose ends and that’s not something anyone wants to be. Putin’s loose ends have a way of disappearing permanently. One thing is sure, she will not be doing any foreign traveling from here on. I'm sure Mueller would love to have a chat with her.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/0...a-veselnitskaya-profile-chance-newday-pkg.cnn

The fact is, at the very least, per Junior's own words, he and Trump's closest aids attempted to collude with Russia. That's a conspiracy to collude.

Republican pundits are trying to spin this as routine opposition research. So is the Republican Party now relying on Russia for their opposition research? Just when you think Republicans cannot get more ridiculous, they get more ridiculous, and the dittoheads mindlessly eat it up. That's why they do it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...collusion-it-wasnt-for-lack-of-trying/533070/

 

[iceaura]

About that lawyer: http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/10/131744/854?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed: boomantribune/Svpw (Booman Tribune)

Perhaps Trump Jr. wasn’t conversant on the Magnitsky controversy at the time, but Paul Manafort should have been. He had been working the Russian lobbying circuit for long enough to know where the money was flowing, and Russia was very vocal about the issue. She should have been seen as an agent of a foreign power and of Vladimir Putin in particular.

More than that, though, she should have been seen as an attorney for murderous Russian mobsters with high-level connections to the Russian Ministry of the Interior. Simple prudence should have prevented them from getting entangled with such a person, and not just for political reasons. The potential for blackmail or violence were too high to be acceptable to a rational person.

Question: which makes Trump and his team look worse:

1) that his Russian experts and major policy advisors and the guy running his real estate dealings in New York and Russia knew who this lawyer was and whom she represented;

2) that they didn't know.

 

[Tiassa]

Question: which makes Trump and his team look worse:

I'm going to go with the part where Don Jr. accidentally confessed↗; still, though, and more toward points you're considering, did you catch Sen. Warner (D-VA)↱ on msnbc, calling out the "constant pattern of convenient forgetfulness from senior-level Trump officials"? Meanwhile, Donald the Younger has lawyered up↱, so things seem to be moving along.

I just can't believe Trump Jr. used the word "pretext"↱. I mean, really: If he could, in a word, completely fuck everything to high hell, he just might have done so.
____________________

Notes:

Becker, Jo, Matt Apuzzo, and Adam Goldman. "Trump’s Son Met With Russian Lawyer After Being Promised Damaging Information on Clinton". The New York Times. 9 July 2017. NYTimes.com. 10 July 2017. http://nyti.ms/2uJH8tL

Freifeld, Karen. "Donald Trump Jr. hires lawyer for Russia probes". Reuters. 10 July 2017. Reuters.com. 10 July 2017. http://reut.rs/2u2cMFe

msnbc. "Warner: Expect 'much more to come' in Russia probe". Deadline: White House. 10 July 2017. msnbc.com. 10 July 2017. http://on.msnbc.com/2uKUBBz

 

[Schmelzer]

About that lawyer: http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/10/131744/854?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed: boomantribune/Svpw (Booman Tribune)

She should have been seen as an agent of a foreign power and of Vladimir Putin in particular.
More than that, though, she should have been seen as an attorney for

... which makes Trump and his team look worse...

... the part where Don Jr. accidentally confessed;

Emph. mine. I think it is funny to observe a society where is becomes a crime or close to a crime to talk with people without having checked their reputation of political correctness.

In a non-totalitarian society, it would have been the Trump-supporters, who would worry about things the Trump team should have been seen. Once they have not seen something, and have been fooled or so because of this. The opponents of Trump would, instead, simply laugh. Wow, see how stupid is the Trump team, looks like they have not even seen that ... This is, for example, as Russian pro-Putin commentators make fun of Nawalny or Poroshenko. So, ok, this is also ad hominem. But it is about these guys being stupid in their attempts to reach some political aims.

Here we have another level. Here we talk about confessions. Not confessions to his friends about an own stupid error, but confessions to his enemies about evil deeds.

An you really wonder if I consider all this as quite close to totalitarian?

 

[iceaura]

Emph. mine. I think it is funny to observe a society where is becomes a crime or close to a crime to talk with people without having checked their reputation of political correctness.

You mean their reputation of being Russian criminals and corrupters of Russian government, currently expanding their bribery, threats, and theft operations, to the US.

A reputation that no one involved in Donald Trump's real estate dealings with dozens of wealthy and powerful Russian "businessmen" for many years now can possibly have overlooked, even if they hadn't been reminded in advance by explicit emails and, from the first meeting (of several) on, the immediate contents of the conversations themselves.

That's what you mean by "political correctness",

and those are your expectations for the workings of a reputational system. We won't forget.

btw: This is the stuff that you object to when the US does it to other people, remember? But it's just guys talking to people, when it's Putin doing it. He has a kind of Midas touch, with you - everything he touches becomes well motivated and ok in your eyes.

In a non-totalitarian society, it would have been the Trump-supporters, who would worry about things the Trump team should have been seen

And instead, as with AGW and racism, they are refusing to acknowledge that the events took place, that they were what they appear to have been, and that their trusted sources have been lying to them - which tells you something about totalitarianism among Republican voters in the US (and anyone else similarly fooled by American rightwing authoritarian propaganda, such as yourself).

But it is about these guys being stupid in their attempts to reach some political aims.

No, it isn't. That's their cover story.
The worry is that the Trump crowd was not fooled at all - that they were willing accomplices, and still are. They did achieve their political aims, after all.

Here we have another level. Here we talk about confessions. Not confessions to his friends about an own stupid error, but confessions to his enemies about evil deeds.

Not just his enemies - the voters he needed to con, and the police who are charged with enforcing the law.

Confessions of what looks like criminal behavior, previously denied because it is against the law and disqualifies the perpetrators from public office. And because most Americans who acknowledge it took place would refuse to vote for the perpetrators.

An you really wonder if I consider all this as quite close to totalitarian?

No. You have made that very clear - you are lying, or stupid, just like everyone else who posts fascist agitprop on this science forum. Ignorance no longer covers your ass.

 

[Bells]

I'm going to go with the part where Don Jr. accidentally confessed↗;

Ech.. Not accidental anymore.

The Dumbass released the emails (the irony of that just kills me) that show just how much he knew in regards to where the information was coming from and Goldstone even tells him that he wants to send it to his father (Trump Snr), but wants to run it all by him first, due to the sensitive nature of the information the Russian government had managed to obtain to help Trump win the election.. To which Dumbass Jnr advises how he "loves it" if it is what he was told it is.

As I noted in the Russiagate thread, one person broke it down and after reading those emails, Dumbass Jnr literally just confessed. Now is the time to grab the popcorn and watch his supporters and the GOP scurry like rats to excuse this. This show just started to get interesting.