The Trouble With Islam

[Michael]

I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology[/b] can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist

French Muslim convert convicted of terrorism

British Muslim convert jailed for terrorism offenses


American Muslim Convert Convicted on Terrorism

etc.. etc...etc...

The Trouble With Islam

Is, like all mind numbing monotheism (Christianity included) it naturally promotes intolerance. There is only one true belief and everyone else’s is wrong.

I had a Muslim here in essence say that the possibility could not even EXIST that another belief system may be correct. Talk about closed minded. That mental door is welded shut.

Mix in with this nationalism and you end up with oxymoronic phrases such as:

- Islamic Bomb
- Islamic Golden Age
- Islamic Math :bugeye: yes you read that correctly “Islamic” math…

Ever hear of the Tao Bomb, why it’s what the Chinese built, or how about the Shamanistic Golden Age (you may have read that as the Chinese Golden Age – you were wrong) or I know Christian Math – like Calculus. :bugeye: sounds stupid doesn’t it? Yet I read this sort of crap all day long only insert the word “Islam”.

Even moderate Muslims take the Koran as the final word of God: unfiltered, unchanged and unchangeable.

This is a great point. Muslims should be taught the various historical and different versions of the Qur’an and also they should be taught that no one knows when or by whom wrote which parts. Until a generation is raised to be critical of this fairytale I really don’t see anything changing.


RE: Old Testament.
Yes the Old Testament is full of hatred and exemplifies everything that is wrong with monotheism. BUT, the New testament (while equally full of shit) at least holds as a CENTRAL theme – forgiveness and turn the other cheek. So that does help. If the Middle Eastern people were smart they’d promote the Baha’i faith as Bahá'u'lláh pretty much serves as the reformer for the faith – well, at least as good as one can get given the starting material.

 

[Read-Only]

He also said, "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Matthew 10:34.

And most Christians understand clearly that it is NOT a literal sword for he later explains that it (the new order which became called Christianity) will turn brother against brother and children against parents because it is an entirely different than than it was under Jewish law.

The NT is a censored version of the OT, so to speak. Any Christian who doesn't follow the OT has no basis in following the NT, because both are inextricably intertwined. The NT is based off the OT, and this website shows massive similarities through direct quotation.

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

Certainly. There are many, many references found in the NT that are taken directly from the OT. But if you are completely honest about it you will have to admit that there are many occasions in the OT where commandments were given to kill and destroy, yet not a SINGLE ONE in the NT! Everything changed and the OT is only used as a reference leading up to the NT teachings.

Here's the real crux of the matter: in the OT times, God dealt with the people in exactly the same fashion that any parent does with a child. You may do this and this but you cannot be allowed to do this and this. And every single thing is laid out in great detail - again, just the way you would have to do with a child. But with the installation of the NT replacing the old, the people become treated as adults with full reasoning ability. No longer is every little detail spelled out but rather things are presented from the standpoint of general principles. And the emphasis is shifted from direct punishment and vengeance to forgiveness, understanding and above all - love. Killing by stoning and other means is NEVER mentioned even once.

 

[maxg]

French Muslim convert convicted of terrorism

British Muslim convert jailed for terrorism offenses


American Muslim Convert Convicted on Terrorism

etc.. etc...etc...

In all fairness, I think a lot of these converts are just so disgruntled with their society that they're looking for something to believe in that will help them destroy it. 30 years ago they would have signed up for the Red Army Faction or the Symbionese Liberation Army.

Ever hear of the Tao Bomb, why it’s what the Chinese built, or how about the Shamanistic Golden Age (you may have read that as the Chinese Golden Age – you were wrong) or I know Christian Math – like Calculus. :bugeye: sounds stupid doesn’t it? Yet I read this sort of crap all day long only insert the word “Islam”.

Christian math, like this?
http://www.hightestscores.com/christian-textbooks/christian-math.htm

or this
http://ezinearticles.com/?An-Introduction-to-Christian-Mathematics&id=15700

or this
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2004/11/precalculus-for-christian-schools.html[/QUOTE]

This is a great point. Muslims should be taught the various historical and different versions of the Qur’an and also they should be taught that no one knows when or by whom wrote which parts. Until a generation is raised to be critical of this fairytale I really don’t see anything changing.

Well it probably is about time for an Islamic reformation. It took Christianity about 1500 years & Judaism about 5000 years (assuming you consider reform Judaism as a reformation movement). Islam has only been around for about 1400, so it's still a bit early.

 

[Nasor]

About half of Christians in the U.S. take the bible literally. About 45% of the adult US population believes that God magically created humans 10,000 years ago, and that evolution is false. Just google “gallop poll evolution” if you want proof.

But, even though about half the population of the US are apparently biblical literalists, the Christians here don’t seem to have any particular desire to murder people. So clearly religious literalism isn’t the problem – the problem is people who take Islam literally.

 

[Photizo]

Killing by stoning and other means is NEVER mentioned even once.

"NEVER mentioned even once"? You're mistaken. Killing by stoning is mentioned several times in the NT.

 

[superluminal]

– the problem is people who take Islam literally.

Actually, I think it's more about groups of people who are savages. So much of middle eastern culture is rooted in tribal savagery it's no wonder they behave the way they do.

Now we'll wait for the "the americans and jews are driving them to it" crowd. It dosen't matter that this region has been a savage battleground for barbarian tribes for most of history.

Meh.

 

[Michael]

In all fairness, I think a lot of these converts are just so disgruntled with their society that they're looking for something to believe in that will help them destroy it. 30 years ago they would have signed up for the Red Army Faction or the Symbionese Liberation Army.

I partially agree but listen to what you are saying. These people are looking for a violent outlet and so that joined an violent religion. They didn't join Buddhism.... that's for sure.

second, I my Iranian buddy used to be Muslims and he used to live in Japan. he told me about Japanese that seemed like normal enough (like everyday people) and they joined the local Mosque, not some weird cult just the local Mosque that my buddy went to when he was Muslim, to check it out and according to him within about 6 months they were more than willing to become suicide bombers and wanted to attack and kill Japanese infidels.

Those were his words and I think that's f*cked up. This wasn't even a Mosque in Pakistan where yeah I could expect it, it was one in upper class Tokyo and normal everyday Buddhist Shinto Japanese were turned into psychopathic killers. And not just one, he said there were many. They were encouraged to go to the ME and fight Jihad against infidels. That was all way before 9/11. Like 10-15 years ago.

Again, that's f*cked up.

IMO real f*cked up.

 

[Michael]

Christian math, like this?
http://www.hightestscores.com/christian-textbooks/christian-math.htm

or this
http://ezinearticles.com/?An-Introduction-to-Christian-Mathematics&id=15700

or this
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2004/11/precalculus-for-christian-schools.html

[/QUOTE]Ahh yes, these are psycho fundamental Christians. So yes we should expect as much from them. They are not mainstream Christian and certainly not liberal! Not common either. I think it's VERY common for Muslims to think in terms of Islamic Science because I have heard it right here commented to me directly. I read the "Islamic" bomb on the BBC, that was the sentiment of many or most Pakistani and the Islamic Golden Age (pure oxymoron) was from a Muslim who says the Qur'an supports gay Muslims. A liberal Muslim if ever there was one.

So it's more endemic me thinks.

but yes, there are Christians idiots as well, thank Goddesses they are on the fringe - for now.

 

[Michael]

Well it probably is about time for an Islamic reformation. It took Christianity about 1500 years & Judaism about 5000 years (assuming you consider reform Judaism as a reformation movement). Islam has only been around for about 1400, so it's still a bit early.

What about Baha'i? Isn't that reformation? It doesn't seem to be taking to well in the ME.

 

[maxg]

What about Baha'i? Isn't that reformation? It doesn't seem to be taking to well in the ME.

Well as I understand it Baha'i did not set out to reform Islam but rather was a distinct religion that grew out of it (owing much to Islam and particularly Sufism)--so I don't see it as analogous.

Protestantism began as an attempt to reform Catholicism (not replace it) and both Catholics and Protestants still see themselves as Christians. Someone who practices Baha'i doesn't identify as Muslim (any more than they would identify as being a member of any other religion, since they are universalists).

I partially agree but listen to what you are saying. These people are looking for a violent outlet and so that joined an violent religion. They didn't join Buddhism.... that's for sure.

second, I my Iranian buddy used to be Muslims and he used to live in Japan. he told me about Japanese that seemed like normal enough (like everyday people) and they joined the local Mosque, not some weird cult just the local Mosque that my buddy went to when he was Muslim, to check it out and according to him within about 6 months they were more than willing to become suicide bombers and wanted to attack and kill Japanese infidels.

Well there is at least one violent, Japanese Buddhist cult they could have joined: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

I'm not disagreeing that within Islam today there is a lot of violence being taught at Mosques and schools around the world, and as an agnostic Jew I don't have that much of an investment in defending them. But religous teachings have been used to promote ignorance and violence in many contexts (including Christianity and Buddhism which profess to be non-violent religions). However, religions also tend to change over time--sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

 

[Michael]

I agree with your overall assertion but I'd say in the case of Islam ... and sometimes for the worse. If even a liberal pro-homosexual Muslim can not accept that there is even a possibility of another person's differing beleif being correct - well then I'd there's pretty much no hope really.

 

[Carcano]

And the emphasis is shifted from direct punishment and vengeance to forgiveness, understanding and above all - love. Killing by stoning and other means is NEVER mentioned even once.

Its not the emphasis which has shifted, but the location.

In the old testament divine wrath was manifested here and now, not only against individuals, but also their children for several generations.

Thus it is written in Exodus:

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me."

Remember there is no hell in the old testament, so punishment has to take place right here on terra firma.

With the later borrowing of HELL from other traditions, the Hebrews of Christ's time were no longer compelled to promise earthly punishment...hell awaits!

So there is no sudden revolution of love and forgiveness...merely a re-location of consequence.

Jesus condemns pretty much everything in sight, from entire cities, to a man who says "you fool".

He does not forgive, and neither does the father.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. -Luke 14:26

I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -Matthew 10:35-36

 

[Michael]

maxg,

A quick question about Judaism. I thought Judaism promoted polygamy? I mean it certainly is in the OT. So what about today? Is polygamy legal in Israel? Is it supported by Orthodox Jews? Or has it been somehow sidelined? If so how so?

Michael

 

[GeoffP]

With the later borrowing of HELL from other traditions, the Hebrews of Christ's time were no longer compelled to promise earthly punishment...hell awaits!

So there is no sudden revolution of love and forgiveness...merely a re-location of consequence.

First: that's not so. Christianity teaches that sins are forgiven if there is repentance. Second: a relocation of consequence? From a material perspective let me say: fine! No cutting off of heads and constant persecution in the present world strikes me just fine. Threaten me with all the hellfire you like. But killing me for not being muslim is another thing altogether.

He does not forgive, and neither does the father.

?? That's not true, actually: Jesus is all about forgiveness. The forgiveness of sins features quite highly even today.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. -Luke 14:26

That's kind of a polemic, not a strictural requirement.

I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -Matthew 10:35-36

Again: a polemic. He's not telling Christians they must hate their parents. Where are you drawing these interpretations from?

 

[Sock puppet path]

He also said, "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Matthew 10:34.

And predictably as the thread states a muslim takes that phrasology literally

The NT is a censored version of the OT, so to speak. Any Christian who doesn't follow the OT has no basis in following the NT, because both are inextricably intertwined. The NT is based off the OT, and this website shows massive similarities through direct quotation.

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

Read only already answered this.

BTW how many military campaigns and caravan raids did Jesus participate in?

 

[Carcano]

He's not telling Christians they must hate their parents. Where are you drawing these interpretations from?

Hes not telling Christians anything...there were no Christians at the time, nor any intention of there ever being any.

An 'interpretation' derives some other meaning than that which is clearly stated.

Christians choose either that which is clearly stated, OR their interpretation...according to their personal preference.

 

[Michael]

Hes not telling Christians anything...there were no Christians at the time, nor any intention of there ever being any.

Actually there wasn't a Jesus either - it's all allegory.

 

[Read-Only]

"NEVER mentioned even once"? You're mistaken. Killing by stoning is mentioned several times in the NT.

As a commandment to follow????:bugeye: Please show me a SINGLE instance! (I won't hold my breath while waiting on you because it's simply NOT there.)

And perhaps you've also forgotten the time the crowd gathered to stone a prostitute to death (which was a commandment in the OT) and Christ said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." No one threw a rock and the crowd slowly melted away.

 

[maxg]

maxg,

A quick question about Judaism. I thought Judaism promoted polygamy? I mean it certainly is in the OT. So what about today? Is polygamy legal in Israel? Is it supported by Orthodox Jews? Or has it been somehow sidelined? If so how so?

Michael

Well I'm no religous authority and have never been in Israel but I don't believe polygamy is condoned by any Jews today any more than stoning for blasphemy. It is illegal in Israel.

Judaism has, for over a 1000 years, understood that the bible and the law is open to interpretation--hence the Talmud--an oral tradition of interpretation (now written). So there is a mechanism for rejecting practices (like polygamy or stoning) that seem at odds with an otherwise righteous life. For an analogy I'd say it's like common law and constitutional law. With Reform Judaism, the individual's interpretation takes primacy (kind of like eliminating lawyers altogether)--a similar process to what occurred in the Christian Reformation.

 

[GeoffP]

Hes not telling Christians anything...there were no Christians at the time, nor any intention of there ever being any.

Oy. Picky.

An 'interpretation' derives some other meaning than that which is clearly stated.

Christians choose either that which is clearly stated, OR their interpretation...according to their personal preference.

This might be, but the scripture still does explicitly state "commandments". Based on that - and Jesus' message of "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" - it would be a little hard to conclude that Christianity is meant to be violent.