The Thing about UFOs...

Origin of UFOs

  • Extraterrestrials

    Votes: 10 20.0%
  • Man-made

    Votes: 10 20.0%
  • Both

    Votes: 21 42.0%
  • Neither

    Votes: 9 18.0%

  • Total voters
    50
That's the single best example for aliens or some top secret alien-like government technology? That has already been proven to be military flares disappearing out of view behind a mountain.

If anything, this is one of the best examples to show why there is no merit to the whole alien thing.


That's incorrect. There was NEVER any proof whatsoever that these were flares and in fact that was an all to predictable and typical government via military volunteered explanation for the matter. The TRUTH here is that the Governor of the state itself has gone on public record saying that he was instructed to cover up the matter publicly to keep things as calm as possible. The Governor as evidenced by video shown right here in this thread said that what he observed first hand could in no way be confused with anything military or even from this planet.

Nice try but VERY wrong.
 
Wait a minute, since when were the documented observation of UFOs throughout the last several thousand years limited to certain types of documents?

Are you suggesting that someone here stated otherwise, either implicitly or explicitly?

Now would YOU care to assert "facts", as I am certain you are able, in place of all those you refute? Or will you go on contending, or better put, PRETENDING, that UFOs should be dismissed based on a ridiculous lack of "empirical truth".

What good reason is there to believe that there is anything mysterious or significant about UFOs? People see things they can't explain. There's no reason to expect that one should be able or required to have a ready explantion for everything that is observed. There's nothing wrong with being naturally curious and looking into the observations, but when an explanation isn't forthcoming, are you suggesting that there must, therefore, be a paranormal and supernatural cause? Must we insert space aliens and extraterrestrials simply because a ready, verifiable explanation is absent?

If that's your contention, then that's nonsense. If you hide behind the "I'm just saying UFOs are unidentified" garbage, then you aren't being honest because the mere quality of being "unidentified" doesn't mean that I need to find the specific bird I observed flying low across a field. It was flying and I'm not even sure it was a bird, but reason dictates it probably was, therefore I can dismiss the event and get on with my day.

Further, why should I be require to assert any "facts" about your claims? I can, if I cared to, but you wouldn't like them. They speak to human fallibility as witnesses, the human tendency to look for attention, and the natural state of belief that exists in human nature, evident in the religious superstitions of all cultures.

This type of thinking achieves a ridiculously slow and even far retarded (as in slowed down within) level of results with respect to scientific advancements.

On the contrary, scientific discourse is far less forgiving than I in this forum when it comes to asserting claims. Having presented papers and seminars in conference, I can tell you that not having your "ducks in a row" is likely to result in a tragic, but timely, death of your ideas. The questions and query I'm presenting; the refutations I've offered are logical and rational. If your assertions can't withstand them (which, so far, appears to be the case), then you must be willing to accept the criticism and revise or re-examine your position.

Instead, you stick to the pseudoscientific paradigm of putting the cart before the horse, acknowledging only data which are supportive of your hypothesis, and reliance on logical fallacy for your arguments.

You simly CANNOT dismiss what is credible testimony and visually recorded EVIDENCE because of it being subject to observation, and thereby the powers of perception, to begin with. That's downright foolish and indeed circular logic to say the least.

And, yet, I have dismissed it -quite handily. You've shown no credible testimony or 'visually recorded evidence' (incidentally, using all-caps with frequency is another sign of pseudoscience in action) that cannot have a far more mundane, more prosaic, and more likely explanation than space aliens and ET.

Anecdotal accounts are not evidence. No video exists that shows anything that cannot have a reasoned and natural or human explanation.

We have evidence for natural and human events that can create what appears to be "flying objects." We have no evidence that space aliens and ET do. The probabilities, therefore, necessarily favor natural and human explanations.

Also, incidentally, the very term "unidentified flying object" makes several irrational assumptions: 1) that because the observer could not readily identify what was seen, it's necessarily a mystery to all; 2) -and more importantly- what was observed was actually and "object."

And if you aren't talking about space aliens and ET with regard to UFOs, what's your point?
 
That's incorrect. There was NEVER any proof whatsoever that these were flares and in fact that was an all to predictable and typical government via military volunteered explanation for the matter. The TRUTH here is that the Governor of the state itself has gone on public record saying that he was instructed to cover up the matter publicly to keep things as calm as possible. The Governor as evidenced by video shown right here in this thread said that what he observed first hand could in no way be confused with anything military or even from this planet.

Nice try but VERY wrong.

Don't be daft. Why must there be "proof?" The Air Force stated they used flares from one or more A-10 Warthogs. Anyone who's ever observed the A-10 flares agrees that the video is consistent with flares. The video of the sighting was consistent with flares. The Air Force does frequently conduct maneuvers in the area.

What's the alternative hypothesis and what's the evidence for it?

Put up or shut up, as they say.
 
Your dancing SkinWalker and providing no evidence to the contrary. How is your perspective any more credible than mine? It's not. And yes, you did claim that the amassed social documentation of observed UFOs over time was not irrefutably factual. Did I misunderstand you?
 
Don't be daft. Why must there be "proof?" The Air Force stated they used flares from one or more A-10 Warthogs. Anyone who's ever observed the A-10 flares agrees that the video is consistent with flares. The video of the sighting was consistent with flares. The Air Force does frequently conduct maneuvers in the area.

What's the alternative hypothesis and what's the evidence for it?

Put up or shut up, as they say.

I contend that it was a craft of dimensions that could not be possibly attributed to flares or ANYTHING the military presently uses. You seem quick and even emotionally motivated to accept the WORD of the military as opposed to the WORD of a former Governor of that state. Hmmm.:rolleyes:
 
He also believes school systems and black-budget military programs are comparable to each other in terms of how they document and release things to the public.
 
Your How is your perspective any more credible than mine?
Because we know with absolute certainty that A-10s, flares and military manouvers exist. We do not know that alien spacecraft exist. That makes a plausible known explanation more credible than an unsubstantiated speculation.
 
Your dancing SkinWalker and providing no evidence to the contrary.

I've no burden of providing any evidence. I'm not making any positive claims regarding UFOs.

How is your perspective any more credible than mine?

It's reasoned, rational, and skeptical. I'm not accepting the extraoridinary simply because I crave mystery and significance even where none is present. For starters.

And yes, you did claim that the amassed social documentation of observed UFOs over time was not irrefutably factual. Did I misunderstand you?

If not, I'm certainly misunderstanding you. Perhaps you could quote the passage, whichever it was, and then what it means to you and I'll confirm or deny if this inferrence is correct.
 
When not in an official capacity, almost ALWAYS. ;-)

A clear examply of the appeal to authority fallacy. Ronald Reagan believed in astrology before, during and after his "official capacity." Do you, therefore, accept astrology as valid?

I contend that it was a craft of dimensions that could not be possibly attributed to flares or ANYTHING the military presently uses.

And yet nothing is presented that contradicts a reasoned and rational explanation. Just because some UFO cranks and crackpots (not referring to you) believe "a big spacecraft" is out there, doesn't mean that the more rational and mundane explanation must be false. The video is consistent with A-10 Warthog flares. Period. QED. If you have evidence to the contrary, put it up or shut up -or come back when you do. Until that time, this video, rated as among the most significant by someone in this thread, is discarded. And, since it was the "most significant" so can any lesser videos.

You seem quick and even emotionally motivated to accept the WORD of the military as opposed to the WORD of a former Governor of that state. Hmmm.

Only because I see no good reason not to. If you have one, show it. Until then, you and everyone that goes on and on about how they can trust the "man" is full of poppycock. Sorry, but its true. The logical fallacy remains and it makes you out to be a mystery-monger and a significance-junkie.

He also believes school systems and black-budget military programs are comparable to each other in terms of how they document and release things to the public.

Very clearly you didn't actually read what I wrote and are settling for what you want to believe. I made a logical analogy and you utterly failed to logically refute it. Simply saying "it ain't so" is pure ignorance. Either you can logically refute it as an argument or you can't. Your instance on re-visiting this point is making you look very bad to anyone that has any education in logic and argumentation -basic tenents of basic philosophy.

This point is only worth driving home because you deceptively include "philosopher" in your Avatar tagline.
 
That's incorrect. There was NEVER any proof whatsoever that these were flares and in fact that was an all to predictable and typical government via military volunteered explanation for the matter. The TRUTH here is that the Governor of the state itself has gone on public record saying that he was instructed to cover up the matter publicly to keep things as calm as possible. The Governor as evidenced by video shown right here in this thread said that what he observed first hand could in no way be confused with anything military or even from this planet.

Nice try but VERY wrong.

Well I would have at least appreciated if you linked me to a video/news article of the governor and what he said.
 
Oh, he said it. Or something very close ot that. But being "governor" doesn't automatically imply that you're smarter than the average citizen you represent. One need only consider Rick Perry, Mike Huckabee, and Sarah Palin and see clear demonstration of this. These three names, alone, give a 6% chance of being scientifically illiterate to any governor.
 
Very clearly you didn't actually read what I wrote and are settling for what you want to believe. I made a logical analogy and you utterly failed to logically refute it. Simply saying "it ain't so" is pure ignorance.

I very clearly read what you wrote. You compared the blacking out on documents you would get from a public school to the blacking out on documents you would get from a black-budget government program (if you get ANY documents at all). These two arent even in the same ballpark (in terms of national security, funding, and secrecy) but apparently its good enough for your "logical analogy". Might as well compare apples and oranges...

Speaking of ignorance...
 
Oh, he said it. Or something very close ot that. But being "governor" doesn't automatically imply that you're smarter than the average citizen you represent. One need only consider Rick Perry, Mike Huckabee, and Sarah Palin and see clear demonstration of this. These three names, alone, give a 6% chance of being scientifically illiterate to any governor.

It wouldn't surprise me if he said it, but having debated in the 9/11 conspiracy thread for some time now, I'm familiar with the way conspiracy theorists dishonestly quote mine. EndLightEnd proved that in this thread when he wrongly quoted Neil Armstrong.
 
I very clearly read what you wrote. You compared the blacking out on documents you would get from a public school to the blacking out on documents you would get from a black-budget government program (if you get ANY documents at all). These two arent even in the same ballpark (in terms of national security, funding, and secrecy) but apparently its good enough for your "logical analogy". Might as well compare apples and oranges...

Speaking of ignorance...
J.... H. C...... You are being moronic. Try to follow this carefully.
1. School documents are pretty low on the list of confidentiality of government documents, certainly a lot lower than that of Top Secret projects.
2. These school documents often/usually contain blacked out information.
3. It is therefore hardly surprising that there would be blacked out information on other documents.
4. Consequently the presence of censored material within the documents of interest carries no particular significance.

Now do you understand that very simple sequence? Do you accept it? If you cannot, then you clearly are an irrational being. I have no interest in talking or listening to irrational beings, so you are a minute or so away from ignore.
 
I very clearly read what you wrote. You compared the blacking out on documents you would get from a public school to the blacking out on documents you would get from a black-budget government program (if you get ANY documents at all). These two arent even in the same ballpark (in terms of national security, funding, and secrecy) but apparently its good enough for your "logical analogy". Might as well compare apples and oranges...

Speaking of ignorance...

You're mischaracterizing my premises. I'll put this in argument form and invite you to logically refute. This shouldn't be a problem for anyone with "philosopher" in their user title.

1. Individuals and institutions have a right to privacy and confidentiality.
2. Minor and lesser forms of government such as school districts and city hall will redact this information from public view in answering a FOIA request.
3. Major and more complex levels of government also deal with independent inviduals and insititutions.
4. They, necessarily, will redact private and confidential information shared with those individuals and institutions since it isn't that level of government's to share.
5. Redaction of government documents is, therefore, normal and expected with FOIA requests at all levels of government.

That argument stands. If you find fault with a premise, please refute it logically. Here. If not, then you must also accept that the presence of redaction in government documents does not imply space aliens or ET is involved.
 
See, this is precisely what I am talking about. One person says, "Oh, that's simply too fantastic to be true". Or, another, "well, it is a plausible explanation so I CHOOSE to believe it over other's that were there and saw it with their own two eyes who claim much different. Who cares if those so called others were highly respected and credible witnesses or not".

Where have we heard all this denial before? This being with respect to achievements thought to be too unrealistic or great to ever constitute a real scientific acknowledgment or principle?

Throughout time, constantly. That's where. Oh the adversity of mediocrity.

balk, balk, balk. It's all just obstinate Wind in the sails of ships charting the ever and ongoing predictable course of scientific mediocrity. It's actually pathetically mundane thinking lacking the one critical quality that all great minds that create a real difference possess. Namely the use of the mind to think in a right side forward gear instead of the left side's reverse. It's called creative or inventive vision people and it is simply a concept that the overtly left half of the brain prone crowd will NEVER get. They just don't understand or "get" what makes up a decent designer or inventor. They never have and they never will. The spoon feeding of reality in safe doses results in the ability to ameliorate or amend at best and is for those who don't understand the crucial element of risk. These people can well improve upon ans indeed advance greatly what already exists, making brilliant contributions based on directions and designs already plotted, but when it comes to the drawing board of the brain's right half, they are lost.

Such are the black n white, the predisposed.

Many have given up. Many will never make a difference. Many have been trained how to think and live out their years within the pseudo fascination of yesterday's conquest and discoveries.

There you have it. UFOs are as undeniable a part of our reality as is the fact that night follows day. There, right in front of you. And yet, tirelessly, seamlessly, you balk.
 
So, in other words, you're not going to provide any cogent or sound arguments based on rational and critical thought. Instead, you're going to go on an on with wild, baseless speculation and accept only that data which are consistent with your belief system.

So why post your thoughts on a science forum when there are so many paranormal, supernatural and spiritualist forums and sites out there tailor-made for woo?
 
See, this is precisely what I am talking about. One person says, "Oh, that's simply too fantastic to be true". Or, another, "well, it is a plausible explanation so I CHOOSE to believe it over other's that were there and saw it with their own two eyes who claim much different. Who cares if those so called others were highly respected and credible witnesses or not".

Where have we heard all this denial before? This being with respect to achievements thought to be too unrealistic or great to ever constitute a real scientific acknowledgment or principle?

Throughout time, constantly. That's where. Oh the adversity of mediocrity.

balk, balk, balk. It's all just obstinate Wind in the sails of ships charting the ever and ongoing predictable course of scientific mediocrity. It's actually pathetically mundane thinking lacking the one critical quality that all great minds that create a real difference possess. Namely the use of the mind to think in a right side forward gear instead of the left side's reverse. It's called creative or inventive vision people and it is simply a concept that the overtly left half of the brain prone crowd will NEVER get. They just don't understand or "get" what makes up a decent designer or inventor. They never have and they never will. The spoon feeding of reality in safe doses results in the ability to ameliorate or amend at best and is for those who don't understand the crucial element of risk. These people can well improve upon ans indeed advance greatly what already exists, making brilliant contributions based on directions and designs already plotted, but when it comes to the drawing board of the brain's right half, they are lost.

Such are the black n white, the predisposed.

Many have given up. Many will never make a difference. Many have been trained how to think and live out their years within the pseudo fascination of yesterday's conquest and discoveries.

There you have it. UFOs are as undeniable a part of our reality as is the fact that night follows day. There, right in front of you. And yet, tirelessly, seamlessly, you balk.

As I said in post 365 of this thread:

I think this quote describing Charles Forts work (A skeptic of scientist claims of absolute objectivity), is very accurate to describe both sides of the UFO question:

The feeling that no matter how honest scientists think they are, they are still influenced by various unconscious assumptions that prevent them from attaining true objectivity. Expressed in a sentence, Fort's principle goes something like this: People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels
 
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