The Syrian "Revolution": A Farce from Beginning to End

Yeah, "brilliant."
In a Pontius Pilate kinda way. :/

If Obama is Pontius Pilate, who does that make Jesus?

Dr.%20Bashar%20Al-Assad.jpg

Bless you all, my Children

It isn't the first time Obama has been compared to Pilate.
Preacher Lou Engle even prayed that Michelle would be visited by strange dreams,
and tell him to end abortion.
I pray for President Obama, I pray that You would visit him with revelation, visit his children, visit Michelle, protect them from the Evil One, we pray that he would be a Lincoln-type president, we pray that he would be haunted by it, think about it, night and day, in the dreams Lord, Pilate’s wife, Lord that he wouldn’t wash his hands in water thinking ‘I’m innocent of the blood,’ oh come to him.

Sometimes Engle can carry on like this for up to 12 hours.
You might not get quality, but you as sure as hell get quantity.
- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/engle-likens-obama-pontius-pilate#sthash.8wSLj3Gb.dpuf

@Tiassa
I liked your comparison with a dog catching the car it is chasing.
Occasionally, the dog goes under the wheel.
 
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Pontius Pilate made a decision....not to make one. Thus, my analogy.
 
Even on non-humanitarian grounds, the US and all other western democracies have a distinct interest in making sure one way or another that Assad does not win this war militarily. If Iran ultimately achieves its ambition to form a Shiite crescent consisting of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, governed by the Iranian Ayatollahs and backed strongly by Russia and to a lesser degree by China, armed with nuclear and chemical weapons and a population driven to militancy with propaganda comparable to the works of Goebbels, we'll eventually be on the verge of the biggest global confrontation since WW2.

Sure, but I don't think that Assad really fits into that picture. He's no mystery, he's been in power for years, and his father before him. He's a Baathist, a vaguely left-wing Arab nationalist. (Not unlike Saddam, though with less megalomania.) That's how Syria originally ended up allied with the Soviet Union and with Russia today. More importantly, he's a secularist. He's actually been something of a supporter of the rights of religious minorities, since he's a mamber of a religious minority himself.

So I don't see him as a willing instrument in the formation of some Iranian-dominated Shi'ite radical religious crescent stretching west to the Mediterranean. He has formed an alliance with Iran, largely because he's cornered and needs any ally he can find. I do agree that Iran probably does hope to use him to expand its own power and influence in the region.

I acknowledge the concerns about entering into the Syrian war, the risks of playing into Al Qaeda's hands

Or certainly Islamist hands, if not al Qaeda's. When rebels take over villages and towns in Syria, they often establish Sunni religious courts and enforce Shariah. There have been many reports of ethnic cleansing, where Christians, Druze and Alawites are forced from their homes or killed. (To be fair, there are also reports of Sunnis being 'cleansed' from towns in Assad's increasingly isolated Alawite enclave along the coast. Both sides are doing it.) There are reports of rebels setting up roadblocks, stopping cars and buses, with non-Sunnis separated out, put up against a wall and shot.

Things are getting very ugly in Syria, where angry and violent polarization has reached the point where all the dreamy talk about "negotiations" and a "political solution" may no longer be realistic. Each side feels aggrieved, and each side wants to exact bloody revenge. This isn't the stereotypical "Arab Spring", with hip and wonderful internet-using students and liberals demanding freedom and Western-style democracy. It's a corrupt and brutal family dictatorship that's made lots of enemies over the years, fighting a disorganized collection of medieval-style religious fanatics. The fighting is growing more and more savage by the day.

And while I don't really see Assad willingly copying the Tehran mullahs (his long-established secular style and rather-nominal personal religiosity seem too different), I can easily see the rebels trying to install something that will make Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood look downright progressive. To be honest, they worry me more than Assad does.

The idea that we can somehow support the 'good' rebels seems kind of doubtful to me. That will only suck us into a three-way civil war, where our 'good' rebels fight both the more numerous bad rebels and either Assad, or if we get our way and he's overthrown, Alawite and other religious minority militias, struggling to the death to defend their own communities. These sides are likely to be disunited and fighting among themselves as well. In other words, the two most likely outcomes might conceivably be either: a) Syria devolving into a Somalia-style failed state consumed by a post-apocalyptic battle of all-against-all, or b) a de-facto partition, with Assad holding out in part of the country (most likely the west along the Mediterranean, around Hama and Homs, and south around Damascus), and the rebels in the north, around Aleppo and east along the Euphrates. (The Kurds will probably carve out a statelet in the far northeast as well.) If that happens, we might see large-scale exchanges of population as ethnic cleansing expands.
 
The rebels have never up to this point shown anything remotely close to the ability to coordinate a mass shelling like what was seen in the rebel-held Damascus suburbs right before the attack, this on top of multiple independent streams of information that the shelling came from masses of heavy artillery batteries in neighbourhoods firmly under Assad's control. Multiple rebel-held areas were hit nearly simultaneously, massive quantities of sarin were systematically released in one neighbourhood after the next over a very short period in conjunction with the shelling, I think the whole attack took less than 90 minutes in total. Then immediately after the gas hit, the Syrian army quadrupled its conventional barrage from what had been occurring over the previous 10 days. Did the rebels just happen to somehow accumulate mass quantities of the stuff in the very neighbourhoods Assad was planning to attack, and conveniently release it in each of those neighbourhoods as it came under shelling? If that's what Al Nusra can do in a single day, and choose the timing to match precisely with Assad's own activities, why the heck are they having so much trouble fighting this war?

I've been leaning in agreement all along that it's the Syrian government, despite no conclusive findings.
But, then I read this:

http://www.infowars.com/rebels-admit-responsibility-for-chemical-weapons-attack/
:confused:

We have to note that virtually all the claims of "evidence" about rebels mounting chemical attacks are coming from the same organizations and countries which have scientifically proven that Assad poops golden roses.

Again, it seems more likely that the attacks were from the Syrian government, but then you read the article above, and others like it, and it causes some doubt. Should we attack Syria, if there are doubts? That is my main question. The US is in a precarious position, no matter what decision it chooses, at this juncture.

Why'd Assad hold up the UN inspectors right at his doorstep for 5 days when the UN Secretary General himself said most of the evidence would chemically decay or be destroyed within a few days?

Yes, this would point to guilt of the Syrian government being responsible.

Ban Ki Moon had to fly one of his personal assistants over to Syria just to make sure Assad couldn't pretend the phone lines weren't working.

Hmmm...



So are the good folks in charge of Iran and Hezbollah, while Russia seems to be prepping for the 2013 Douchebaggery World Championships prior to the very, very ungay 2014 Olympics at Sochi. The biggest difference is that the douchebag in Syria is part of an ethnic minority in his country and therefore represents the weak link in the Shiite crescent, so that's where the repression and brutality is most visible and most widely observed in the world media. We should harbour no illusions that any of these are people we can at present reason with or that their visions of global domination are really any different than those held by Al Qaeda, other than exhibiting slightly greater patience while they gather strength in their own arena.

This, is an outstanding observation, and one that should be underscored.

Go type "Assad torture" into Youtube and look at the staggering number of torture and murder videos sold or published by Syrian army soldiers, Hezbollah and their affiliated militias, or found on their phones when they're captured or killed in battle. These people are every bit as bad as Hitler, and their propaganda tactics are borrowed almost directly from his playbook. It's a small wonder so many conspiracy nuts and white supremacists sympathize with these crazies. The only thing that made Hitler more dangerous was that he ran a far more developed country with an army many orders of magnitude more powerful for its time.

I'm not pro-Syria, and said that from the beginning of this thread, but...I'm not the only uneasy one who has some doubts of...could the rebels have been the cause of these attacks? Perhaps, the more likely of the two, is Syria is responsible. But, it would be 'nice' to have some conclusive evidence, dontcha think? You make good points throughout, CptBork.



If it's not settled in Syria, it'll be settled somewhere closer to home.

sadly agree


As long as Iran and their allies are governed at the top by Muslim leaders who preach that nonbelievers live in the service of a demon, the West and its allies are never going to have peace. Shia militant leaders don't have a fixed timeline on when they need to spark a confrontation as long as they have a general sense that their cause is constantly moving forward. The only question is whether America will one day have to deliver one of those generational spine crushing blows to make them rethink matters for at least a few decades, or whether it'll be sufficient and possible to drain their economies to dust until they come to their senses. Preventing Iran from controlling Syria is both a democratic imperative and a highly desirable strategic outcome that will force them to cool their heels.

The challenge we face, is no matter the US' response...I'm afraid we will be facing off with Iran, sooner than later. Does anyone here think we should deal with Iran instead of Syria, in light of all this recent news?



I've been thinking lately that if dispersing his equipment and forces was such an advantageous thing for Assad to do in his own conflict, he would have done that more than 2 years ago. Given the balance of forces in this conflict, I imagine Assad's army is most effective when concentrated and focussed on a small selection of targets at any given time. Let them hide away in their corners and stay dispersed, keep them guessing what and when America might strike while the rebels fight them on more equal terms... and then maybe next time they gather the guns together to level another neighbourhood to the ground, make them disappear.

The grim reality of it is this...Syria is backed by some serious contenders. Assad's army is strong in its own right, and it has some strong countries in its back pocket now. I honestly believe, if this blows up into a major 'world war,' the draft will come back in the US. And we will be in a long conflict. Like a Vietnam. This might sound like paranoid rantings, but it's where I see this heading...sooner or later. :/
 
The challenge we face, is no matter the US' response...I'm afraid we will be facing off with Iran, sooner than later. Does anyone here think we should deal with Iran instead of Syria, in light of all this recent news?
I agree with you that sooner or later we will have to fight Iran. And when we do, we will kick their as$.
 
I agree with you that sooner or later we will have to fight Iran. And when we do, we will kick their as$.

Iran won't be a lame duck, but I believe you're right.

This might be slightly off the beaten path...but inherently, I don't imagine any one of us here 'supports' violence, as a means to resolving conflicts within and with other countries. How do you stay 'true' to your own ideals, but also 'wish' to see your own country prevail in a war? (without seeming like you are pro-war?) :eek: I'm not sure if I'm articulating this properly, but do you know what I mean? Does anyone wrestle with the philosophical side of all of this, deep within your hearts?
 
@wegs
Infowars is not a very reliable source of news.
Anything that their main man Alex Jones says, must be taken with a large pinch of salt.
He believes in every conspiracy theory. All of them. With a few of his own thrown in for good measure, mainly concerning "gurns" (guns).
But sometimes his assistants report things that are true that you won't find in the main media.
You need to check what they they say against the sources they quote before giving them credence.

In this instance Paul Joseph Watson says:

Syrian rebels in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta have admitted to Associated Press correspondent Dale Gavlak that they were responsible for last week’s chemical weapons incident which western powers have blamed on Bashar Al-Assad’s forces, revealing that the casualties were the result of an accident caused by rebels mishandling chemical weapons provided to them by Saudi Arabia.


But I read here http://original.antiwar.com/dale-ga...saudi-supplied-rebels-behind-chemical-attack/
that:

Dale Gavlak assisted in the research and writing process of this article, but was not on the ground in Syria. Reporter Yahya Ababneh, whom the report was written in collaboration with, was the correspondent on the ground in Ghouta who spoke directly with the rebels, their family members, victims of the chemical weapons attacks and local residents.


I haven't looked up Yahya Ababneh, but that would be the next step.

Also, Watson called Gavlak an AP correspondent, but the second source says this:

Gavlak is a MintPress News Middle East correspondent who has been freelancing for the AP as a Amman, Jordan correspondent for nearly a decade. This exclusive report is not an Associated Press article, rather it is exclusive to MintPress News.

See what I mean?
 
Iran won't be a lame duck, but I believe you're right.

This might be slightly off the beaten path...but inherently, I don't imagine any one of us here 'supports' violence, as a means to resolving conflicts within and with other countries. How do you stay 'true' to your own ideals, but also 'wish' to see your own country prevail in a war? (without seeming like you are pro-war?) :eek: I'm not sure if I'm articulating this properly, but do you know what I mean? Does anyone wrestle with the philosophical side of all of this, deep within your hearts?

Please forgive me, but I am suffering from the scientism world view, like a plague in my heart. If we really are just soulless monkeys, then I would love nothing better than to bomb the shit out of my enemies. The middle east is a geopolitical strategic conflict, a land mass plagued by tyrants and butchers who should be destroyed. Islam could probably evolve into a very peaceful religious culture, like Judeo-Christianity, if given a chance. Freedom of speech would do them a lot of good. Maybe Obama is right to want to bomb them and degrade Syria's tyrant's military capabilities. Freedom is paid for with the blood of tyrants.
 
@wegs
Infowars is not a very reliable source of news.
Anything that their main man Alex Jones says, must be taken with a large pinch of salt.
He believes in every conspiracy theory. All of them. With a few of his own thrown in for good measure, mainly concerning "gurns" (guns).
But sometimes his assistants report things that are true that you won't find in the main media.
You need to check what they they say against the sources they quote before giving them credence.

In this instance Paul Joseph Watson says:

Syrian rebels in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta have admitted to Associated Press correspondent Dale Gavlak that they were responsible for last week’s chemical weapons incident which western powers have blamed on Bashar Al-Assad’s forces, revealing that the casualties were the result of an accident caused by rebels mishandling chemical weapons provided to them by Saudi Arabia.


But I read here http://original.antiwar.com/dale-ga...saudi-supplied-rebels-behind-chemical-attack/
that:

Dale Gavlak assisted in the research and writing process of this article, but was not on the ground in Syria. Reporter Yahya Ababneh, whom the report was written in collaboration with, was the correspondent on the ground in Ghouta who spoke directly with the rebels, their family members, victims of the chemical weapons attacks and local residents.


I haven't looked up Yahya Ababneh, but that would be the next step.

Yes, earlier in this thread, it was discussed what news avenue to trust? Al Jazeera came up, and then the discussion went on from there. I think that it's hard to find any 100% factual/unbiased news sources, anymore...do you agree? :eek:


See what I mean?

yes.

Please forgive me, but I am suffering from the scientism world view, like a plague in my heart. If we really are just soulless monkeys, then I would love nothing better than to bomb the shit out of my enemies. The middle east is a geopolitical strategic conflict, a land mass plagued by tyrants and butchers who should be destroyed.

You know, perhaps we have become desensitized to it all, but deep down, I 'want' to believe...none of us want war. It may be a necessary evil as they say?

Islam could probably evolve into a very peaceful religious culture, like Judeo-Christianity, if given a chance.

With Christianity's violent history, not sure we want to use it as a comparison. lol

Freedom of speech would do them a lot of good. Maybe Obama is right to want to bomb them and degrade Syria's tyrant's military capabilities. Freedom is paid for with the blood of tyrants.
and sadly, the innocents. :(
 
Yes, earlier in this thread, it was discussed what news avenue to trust? Al Jazeera came up, and then the discussion went on from there. I think that it's hard to find any 100% factual/unbiased news sources, anymore...do you agree? :eek:

yes.

You know, perhaps we have become desensitized to it all, but deep down, I 'want' to believe...none of us want war. It may be a necessary evil as they say?

With Christianity's violent history, not sure we want to use it as a comparison. lol

and sadly, the innocents. :(

"Peace through war." The Lord. "But in this case something else please Lord." Robittybob
 
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Yes, earlier in this thread, it was discussed what news avenue to trust? Al Jazeera came up, and then the discussion went on from there. I think that it's hard to find any 100% factual/unbiased news sources, anymore...do you agree? :eek: yes. You know, perhaps we have become desensitized to it all, but deep down, I 'want' to believe...none of us want war. It may be a necessary evil as they say?
Humans are highly competitive creatures. But we would be better off if we could compete in sports, debate, business, and in other non-violent ways. But people are meant to live free, not persecuted by tyrannical governments.


With Christianity's violent history, not sure we want to use it as a comparison. lol
They're not violent now, so it's a very good comparison.

and sadly, the innocents. :(
Unfortunately. Life is precious. But there is surgical bombing.
 
Humans are highly competitive creatures. But we would be better off if we could compete in sports, debate, business, and in other non-violent ways. But people are meant to live free, not persecuted by tyrannical governments.



They're not violent now, so it's a very good comparison.


Unfortunately. Life is precious. But there is surgical bombing.


New definition:
"surgical bombing" - Innocents sliced up finely with shrapnel
 
Humans are highly competitive creatures. But we would be better off if we could compete in sports, debate, business, and in other non-violent ways. But people are meant to live free, not persecuted by tyrannical governments.

I suppose you are right, but it's sad that ''winning'' has become synonymous with ''killing'', in terms of resolving conflicts with other countries.



They're not violent now, so it's a very good comparison.

That depends on who you ask. :eek: For being founded as a ''Christian nation'', the US gets itself involved in a lot of wars.


Unfortunately. Life is precious. But there is surgical bombing.

:confused:
 
Edgar Cayce, again again

Above, I opined that Islamic religious extremist outlets like the Brotherhood or al Quida would eventually blame the US for any bombings (looking less likely as Obama has passed the buck to Congress) in a kind of cynical play. But I had no idea that mainstream theocracy-retailers would pick up on this in less than 48 hours after my prediction. Is the PA generally Sunni or Shiite?
 
Above, I opined that Islamic religious extremist outlets like the Brotherhood or al Quida would eventually blame the US for any bombings (looking less likely as Obama has passed the buck to Congress) in a kind of cynical play. But I had no idea that mainstream theocracy-retailers would pick up on this in less than 48 hours after my prediction. Is the PA generally Sunni or Shiite?

So timely that you should post this Geoff. I was about to comment as to why Israel has not been mentioned as co-conspirators with the U.S. and wala like magic there it is.

I would be surprised if we were not seeking Israel's counsel on this situ.
 
So timely that you should post this Geoff. I was about to comment as to why Israel has not been mentioned as co-conspirators with the U.S. and wala like magic there it is.

I would be surprised if we were not seeking Israel's counsel on this situ.

Now that you mention it, there hasn't been much mention, if at all, of Israel in the various articles I've read on this...from a random selection of various news sources, to boot.
 
Now that you mention it, there hasn't been much mention, if at all, of Israel in the various articles I've read on this...from a random selection of various news sources, to boot.

Basically, the Israeli's provide the US with intelligence. Beyond that, they've been targeting weapons en route to hezbollah in syria and are preparing for the worst.
 
So timely that you should post this Geoff. I was about to comment as to why Israel has not been mentioned as co-conspirators with the U.S. and wala like magic there it is.

I would be surprised if we were not seeking Israel's counsel on this situ.

It would be recklessly irresponsible if Obama didn't. Israel's intelligence capabilities in Syria are practically the stuff of legend, their agents and collaborators have penetrated Syrian government ranks all the way to the top in the past and probably possess similar access to Assad's inner circle even today. They also possess extensive electronic and satellite surveillance capabilities which are heavily focussed on the region. Furthermore, if Syria is going to retaliate in a meaningful way for any American strike, then it will almost certainly be against Israel before anyone else, either by direct missile strikes from Syria or via Hezbollah missiles from Lebanon. I mentioned earlier in this thread that such a scenario could likely unfold whether the US intervenes or not, that the confrontation (if it ever happens) will only be more intense the longer it simmers on standby, and that I was concerned the UN would once again hamper Israel's ability to defend itself from fascist provocations once civilian casualties rack up due to the tactics chosen by its enemies.

Edit: Israel has repeatedly penetrated Syrian airspace with impunity, most notably in 2007 when Syria's air defenses mysteriously failed and Israel destroyed a nuclear reactor Assad was building to produce weapons-grade plutonium. Assad didn't make much of a fuss about that one because the independent evidence of his activities at the site was overwhelming, and he'd been trying to keep the whole project under wraps and away from UN attention. There were also the recent Israeli bombings of Syrian weapons depots- along with rumours that some of those bombings may have hampered a planned Assad offensive/massacre in Aleppo, where the tides have recently turned decisively in the rebels' favour- which were allegedly conducted against sophisticated weapons intended for transfer to Hezbollah in violation of its 2006 ceasefire agreement. I'm sure Israel knows a thing or two or a hundred about Syria's air defenses and vulnerabilities, so doubtlessly the US Air Force has consulted and coordinated with them.
 
Above, I opined that Islamic religious extremist outlets like the Brotherhood or al Quida would eventually blame the US for any bombings (looking less likely as Obama has passed the buck to Congress) in a kind of cynical play.

I'm starting to think that this whole Syria campaign might never happen. Obama seems to have been unnerved by the British parliamentary vote and Cameron's subsequent decision not to participate. This thing was apparently supposed to start Thursday, was pushed back to Saturday to enable the UN inspectors to leave the country, and now seems to be pushed back indefinitely. The American congress is on a break, won't be back until later in the month, and there's been no move to call an emergency session.

The whole operation seems to be in disarray, and it hasn't even started yet.

I'm getting the impression that Obama wants to find a face-saving way out of this little crisis (that he stoked himself) and hopes that congress will give it to him. That way, he can tell those who are demanding action that he was the strong and resolute one who stood up for principle, and it was those spineless bastards in congress that undercut him. At the same time he can tell the more isolationist left of his own party that he did as they demanded and kept the US out of war. Allowing Obama to have things both ways (however contradictory that might be) depending on who he's talking to.

Right now, I'd say that the odds of this Syrian campaign ever happening are going down and may be less than 50-50. If it does happen, Obama's heart seemingly isn't in it any more and it's probably going to be a rather perfunctory and symbolic lobbing of some cruise missiles. Then the US will congratulate itself on teaching Assad a mighty moral lesson, wash its hands of the whole thing and call it a day.

Which might conceivably be the best thing.
 
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