The statistical probability of Extraterrestial life

I think it's close to impossible that there is not other life somewhere. It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries. It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime. Also, I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical. Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.
 
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It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries.

...what the hell are you talking about? Where the hell do you get this idea?

It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime

Um, wrong.

I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical.

OK, so life isn't unique to Earth, but symmetry is? I don't think symmetry means what you think it means, pal. And again, I have to ask just where the hell you get these insane ideas, because they are, um, insane?

Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.

I thought you just said it's impossible to get to another planet...man...you are out there, dude.

JD
 
Oniw17 said:
I think it's close to impossible that there is not other life somewhere. It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries. It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime. Also, I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical. Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.

Cut back on the alien spinach. O.K.? :D
 
Communist Hamster said:
If this is an attack on skeptics giving no credit to theories about ET visitng Earth, it faels. I do not deny that aliens may exist somewhere, but the chances are very, very small indeed that they are remotely near Earth.

Hence the Fermi paradox

And please, ignore craterchains (Norval and FieryIce. They are the same person trolling.


You have no basis to say that they exist anywhere.

So you think they must be out there but no way there could be here?

The only thing we have to go on is what we know of and that could be very little in the grand scheme of things. We know we are carbon based and need oxygen to live. We know we are made of stardust so we search for stars that are metal rich as those are the only ones that will give rise to planets. We can approximate the age of our sun and now the age of other suns in our solar system. It was recently found that 80% of metal rich stars are a billion years older than ours. So if there is life out there we are at the bottom 20% of the evolution ladder.

the 80% that have a head start on us (up to a billion years) just might have figured out how to get from point A to Z faster than our prehistoric minds can comprehend at this time. So when you state that there may be life out there but are for sure it could not be here is a bit of a paradox to me.
 
If life (intelligent or otherwise) is out there somewhere, then the obvious question is: Where is it? Why haven't we heard from it? And if it is out there and it is similiar in intelligence to us, then why are they not broadcasting their presence? Answer is: Maybe, just maybe there isn't any life (intelligent or otherwise) out there. Maybe, just maybe we might be the 'only' current so-called intelligent life in the galaxy. Forget about the rest of the universe. To distant to worry about. :D
 
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If life (intelligent or otherwise) is out there somewhere, then the obvious question is: Where is it? Why haven't we heard from it? And if it is out there and it is similiar in intelligence to us, then why are they not broadcasting their presence?

An obvious answer would be that the signal strength originating from their home world is far too weak for us to pick up with the technology we are working with today. With regard to a interstallar species, another immediate observation would be that using radio waves for communication between stars loses its usefulness if and when a species can fire courier ships back and forth at near-light velocities. Why send an easily misunderstood telegram when you can send a really smart computer that arrives 99% as quickly as the radio message?

As for deliberately broadcasting location – that would be nuts, of course. How do you know that you’ll like what comes calling?
 
glenn239 said:
An obvious answer would be that the signal strength originating from their home world is far too weak for us to pick up with the technology we are working with today. With regard to a interstallar species, another immediate observation would be that using radio waves for communication between stars loses its usefulness if and when a species can fire courier ships back and forth at near-light velocities. Why send an easily misunderstood telegram when you can send a really smart computer that arrives 99% as quickly as the radio message?

As for deliberately broadcasting location – that would be nuts, of course. How do you know that you’ll like what comes calling?

The 'bottom line' is so far; 'No' hellos from ET. If they're out there, they're not saying anything even if they had the technology to do it. It's apparent that our galaxy is a pretty quiet place in terms of radio messages and emails from ET......and just maybe that's way it's going to be for a very long time :D
 
I agree with Novacane.

No matter what you come up with...be it that 80% of the supposed lifeforms out there are more advanced, or that the universe is teeming with intelligent species, the FACT is that they haven't communicated with us. You can preech all you like, the fact remains that we haven't heard from them. Until that day comes, we are left with pure speculation.

JD
 
Why does nobody consider that we may be more advanced than most life forms in space?
 
JDawg said:
...what the hell are you talking about? Where the hell do you get this idea?
We eat everything else we find, don't we? The "super-earth" that someone was talking about on another thread was 7-8x the size of earth, but with supposably only twice as much gravity. This tells me that other planets in the universe have different resources for life to work off of, so life would devlope differently, and possibly be indigestable to us.
Um, wrong.
Ok, other planets capable of sustaining life naturally, by our standards.
OK, so life isn't unique to Earth, but symmetry is? I don't think symmetry means what you think it means, pal. And again, I have to ask just where the hell you get these insane ideas, because they are, um, insane?
Yes, I know what symmetry means. Please don't insult me. It's possible that, with all the variation to Earth that is likely on the seemingly infinite planets out there, symmetry woul be absent on at least a few of them

I thought you just said it's impossible to get to another planet...man...you are out there, dude.
JD
No.. I said in one lifetime. You could keep plants alive with a good electric and water supply, but it would have to be a very good supply, hence all of the funding that would be involved. With plants, humans could maintain life, as long as there were enough going to bring on another few generations. We could possibly communicate through radio signals or some other means. But again, we would need a lot of room in the ship sent out, costing a lot of money, which is why it will never happen.
 
Oniw17 said:
Why does nobody consider that we may be more advanced than most life forms in space?

Actually, we could be classified as real 'Neanderthals' compared to another alien race on another planet in another solar system. Advanced? Who's kidding who? Compared to what? So far we haven't discovered anyone/anything else in the galaxy to even be compared too. Do you know something we don't?:D
 
No, I was just going by the fact that most people who posted believe that some kind of life exists, and for some reason they are super advanced compared to us.
 
Oniw17 said:
No, I was just going by the fact that most people who posted believe that some kind of life exists, and for some reason they are super advanced compared to us.

Most people? Super advanced? Compared to what? Even the ancient egyptians were probably super advanced compared to the Neanderthals. The Neaderthals didn't have much in terms of brain power, but they survived approx. 150 thousand + years using what little intelligence they had. I guess the the best answer is; 'Where there is no or very little intelligence, there is very little or no stupidity'. :D
 
It comes down to statistics!! Depending on who you talk to, the universe is 12 to 15 billion years old. Humans have only been around for 40,000 years. We really are the new kids on the block. It would just be too tough a pill to swallow to believe that nothing else has evolved in all that time and space.

The universe is indeed vast. In 1924 astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that there are galaxies beyond our own. More than a half century later, the Hubble telescope has shown that there are at least 100 billion such galaxies. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, is home to at least 100 billion stars.

Planets are also plentiful. Since 1995, when the first Jupiter-sized planet outside of our solar system was found, astronomers have been able to identify about 100 more planets, all of them around 300 times more massive than Earth.

Planets really are as common as phone poles. Right now, we know that there are planets out there orbiting ten or twenty percent of the stars we look at. So far, only huge planets have been found, but it would be a big surprise if there were only big ones. I don't think anyone expects that to be the case.

Until now, the search for intelligent life has been somewhat hampered by inadequate technology—too few stars surveyed at too low a sensitivity by Earth and space-based telescopes.

Projects like the Kepler Mission and the new Allen Telescope Array, located near Mount Lassen, California, which will enable astronomers to survey 100,000 stars by 2015, should increase the odds of finding a radio signal broadcast by alien life.

Some believe that it takes very special conditions for intelligence to evolve. The late Stephen Jay Gould, the preeminent Harvard University evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, wrote that the creation of intelligence was a freak occurrence, requiring a number of specific events to occur that could never be replicated again.
 
First, Vega:

It comes down to statistics!! Depending on who you talk to, the universe is 12 to 15 billion years old. Humans have only been around for 40,000 years. We really are the new kids on the block. It would just be too tough a pill to swallow to believe that nothing else has evolved in all that time and space

My point is one that you touched on in your final paragraph in this post, but I'll humor myself and make the point anyway; the series of events that took place which allowed for us to be here are indeed quite extreme. Today's estimate puts the number of ELEs (Extinction-Level Events) at 5. That means that there have been five major events in history that have wiped out such a significant number of species on this planet that they make all other extinctions seem subtle. And some estimates put the number at six, while some say that we're in the middle of one right now.

360 million years ago, over what most scientist believe to be a course of as many as 20 million years, 70% of all species on Earth died. 251 million years ago, the worst Earth extinction took place, killing almost all (96%) of marine species, and 70% of all land species, including plants, insects, and animals. And the most famous one by mainstream standards happened 65 million years ago, when all the non-flying dinosaurs died.

So you have to think that our prehistoric ancestors had to survive these events, and evolve from them. The chances of that happening are staggering. I'm not going to say that it can't happen elsewhere, because it did in fact happen here, but I won't immediately say that it isn't a fair assumption to believe that every possible intelligent race in the universe is older than us.

Projects like the Kepler Mission and the new Allen Telescope Array, located near Mount Lassen, California, which will enable astronomers to survey 100,000 stars by 2015, should increase the odds of finding a radio signal broadcast by alien life.

I think that what's hampered our finding a radio broadcast from an alien species isn't technological inferiority, but the idea that if there are intelligent species out there, they aren't anywhere near us. I think the chances of finding a neighbor are small...very, very, very small.

Some believe that it takes very special conditions for intelligence to evolve. The late Stephen Jay Gould, the preeminent Harvard University evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, wrote that the creation of intelligence was a freak occurrence, requiring a number of specific events to occur that could never be replicated again.

I don't think it won't (or hasn't) happened again, I just think that we're looking at it backwards. We're these "new kids" in the cosmic block, as you put it, but the fact is that just look how long it took us to get here. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because our species is on 40,000 years old or so, that we're late bloomers, so to speak. Perhaps we're the exception, rather than the rule, or maybe we're one of only a few special cases in which a species managed to survive the cataclysmic event chain that killed off everything in their way. It's not, for me at least, hard to believe that we're special.

Now, Oniw17

Ok, other planets capable of sustaining life naturally, by our standards.

Yeah, well, that makes more sense.

Yes, I know what symmetry means. Please don't insult me. It's possible that, with all the variation to Earth that is likely on the seemingly infinite planets out there, symmetry woul be absent on at least a few of them

Well, I'm not so sure about that. The reason I freaked out about this comment was because symmetry doesn't seem to be one of those luck-of-the-draw things (such as our existance) but more of a thing that suits life as it's needed. Most animals are symmetrical in one way or another, even if the symmetry lies on the inside, and that says to me that symmetry isn't one of those rare occurances, but rather one of those things that happens because it helps. Like, in Humans, for instance, it is said that our facial symmetry is a good sign of freedom from disease, which would make us suitable for mating, thus it serves as an attractant to potential partners.

I just don't understand why you'd think something like symmetry would be absent. In the cases on Earth where there is no symmetry, such as the the Sea Sponge, it seems to be because there is no apparent need for it. They lack real tissue, and have no muscles or internal organs. They lack a circulitory system, and can reproduce both sexually and asexually. So, in every sense of the word, there is no use for symmetry in them.

It's easier to walk when you have two, four, six, eight, twelve legs on each side, rather than 10 legs on one side, and 2 on the other. That is why symmetry occurs, and that's why I would guess that it occurs anywhere there is life.

JD
 
The 'bottom line' is so far; 'No' hellos from ET. If they're out there, they're not saying anything even if they had the technology to do it. It's apparent that our galaxy is a pretty quiet place in terms of radio messages and emails from ET......and just maybe that's way it's going to be for a very long time

The topic has come up before. In galactic terms, we are currently deaf. The pattern in the past with all forms of research on the universe in general is that as our instruments become more sensitive, our understanding changes. No doubt the pattern will be the same here. As our hearing becomes much more acute and after listening closely for decades, then we can make some serious conclusions.

IIRC, the ability of SETI to detect signals isn't that great. If an SA-10 mod C Grumble air search radar (amongst the more powerful transmitters here on Earth) was sitting on Proxima blaring away at us, we'd be oblivious to it.
 
glenn239 said:
The topic has come up before. In galactic terms, we are currently deaf. The pattern in the past with all forms of research on the universe in general is that as our instruments become more sensitive, our understanding changes. No doubt the pattern will be the same here. As our hearing becomes much more acute and after listening closely for decades, then we can make some serious conclusions.

IIRC, the ability of SETI to detect signals isn't that great. If an SA-10 mod C Grumble air search radar (amongst the more powerful transmitters here on Earth) was sitting on Proxima blaring away at us, we'd be oblivious to it.

By your hypothesis, the universe and intelligent life in it (if it is there) should have evolved to a point after billions of years of evolution, where the airways should be filled with intelligent signals and messages from our so-called space brothers from other solar systems. Right now and since the 1930's we have been listening with our best state-of-the-art technology and so far?......nothing. I don't think our space brothers if they were out there (whether close or far away) and they had the technology to communicate, would be oblivious to us if that were the case. The same goes for us too.:D
 
By your hypothesis, the universe and intelligent life in it (if it is there) should have evolved to a point after billions of years of evolution, where the airways should be filled with intelligent signals and messages from our so-called space brothers from other solar systems. Right now and since the 1930's we have been listening with our best state-of-the-art technology and so far?......nothing. I don't think our space brothers if they were out there (whether close or far away) and they had the technology to communicate, would be oblivious to us if that were the case

Fermi’s premise is questionable because it makes a number of assumptions without any proof to back it up.

(a) The galaxy has been capable of supporting space-faring life for a sufficient period to allow it to “fill up”.
(b) That intelligent species will tend to multiply like flies.
(c) That competing space-faring species will permit one another to expand endlessly.
(d) That the equipment capable of detecting life was/is adequate to the task.
(e) That electromagnetic emissions are a satisfactory method of communication between two stars, and therefore that any star faring species would, by and large, use this method for domestic purposes.

The premise of SETI is to find signs of life from civilizations that are hoping to be discovered and are stupid enough to do the galactic equivalent of smothering themselves in blood and thrashing around in the sea. The premise is, by inspection, questionable. No civilization with any common sense would prefer to take any action which might draw an unknown faction of unknown intentions with unknown military to show up at their home world one day. Far better for them to arrive at the unknown’s planet and leave a potential enemy in the dark as to where they come from

Because of this, what SETI is actually seeking from 2,000 light years away is the signals generated by civilizations only for their own internal use, say something like JFK’s air search radar or Howard Stern’s satellite radio program.
Good luck with that.

You want my premise for the galactic model, it runs as follows. If they are here now, then they obviously do not like us. If they are not here it's because Earth was 'lucky' and has evolved a space faring species at a pace much faster than the galactic average. They they are not here and they are not there either, then the galaxy is probably a pretty bleak place of not much interest to us.
 
glenn239 said:
Fermi’s premise is questionable because it makes a number of assumptions without any proof to back it up.

(a) The galaxy has been capable of supporting space-faring life for a sufficient period to allow it to “fill up”.
(b) That intelligent species will tend to multiply like flies.
(c) That competing space-faring species will permit one another to expand endlessly.
(d) That the equipment capable of detecting life was/is adequate to the task.
(e) That electromagnetic emissions are a satisfactory method of communication between two stars, and therefore that any star faring species would, by and large, use this method for domestic purposes.

The premise of SETI is to find signs of life from civilizations that are hoping to be discovered and are stupid enough to do the galactic equivalent of smothering themselves in blood and thrashing around in the sea. The premise is, by inspection, questionable. No civilization with any common sense would prefer to take any action which might draw an unknown faction of unknown intentions with unknown military to show up at their home world one day. Far better for them to arrive at the unknown’s planet and leave a potential enemy in the dark as to where they come from

Because of this, what SETI is actually seeking from 2,000 light years away is the signals generated by civilizations only for their own internal use, say something like JFK’s air search radar or Howard Stern’s satellite radio program.
Good luck with that.

You want my premise for the galactic model, it runs as follows. If they are here now, then they obviously do not like us. If they are not here it's because Earth was 'lucky' and has evolved a space faring species at a pace much faster than the galactic average. They they are not here and they are not there either, then the galaxy is probably a pretty bleak place of not much interest to us.

SETI is more optimistic than I am I guess, but it certainly appears that alien civilizations if they exist out there in deep space, either have 'no' desire to communicate or 'don't' have the ability or the technology to communicate with us and just possibily they 'never' will. :D
 
Any species 'unable' to communicate will not even be aware of our existence. Any species 'unwilling' to communicate will probably be here already, since our own radio signals haven't even travelled 100 light years away from Earth at this point.

The difference between these two conditions to our security is chasmic. When SETI has built a solar-sized radio wave detector in 100 years, let's talk about some preliminary conclusions as to where we stand.
 
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