The statistical probability of Extraterrestial life

[Balerion]

Yeah...but dude...it was kinda dismissed as "proof" seeing as how it did not meet the standards that SETI had set for such a finding. The man who found it, Jerry Ehman, says himself that he doubts it is of extraterrestrial origin. He says that if it was, "We should have seen it again when we looked for it 50 times. Something suggests it was an Earth-bound signal that simply got reflected off a piece of space debris."

So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.

JD

 

[Novacane]

O.K. Prove it wasn't a message from ET. Rightttttttttttt. You can't. Even the discoverer Jerry Ehman can't either. That's why the 'WOW Signal' is still an enigma. And even today the scientific community is still 'undecided' on whether or not the 'WOW Signal' after 29 years since it was detected in 1977 by the now defunct Ohio State Radio Telescope was a real alien radio signal from someone or something from deep space. For all you SETI lovers out there, keep trying though.

 

[Meanwhile]

kinda dismissed as "proof" seeing as how it did not meet the standards that SETI had set for such a finding. The man who found it, Jerry Ehman, says himself that he doubts it is of extraterrestrial origin. He says that if it was, "We should have seen it again when we looked for it 50 times. Something suggests it was an Earth-bound signal that simply got reflected off a piece of space debris."

So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.

All sounds rather uncertain. An attitude that is frowned upon when experiencers "suggest" anything out of the ordinary but adopted as "okay" when skeptics want to "emphasize" without "proof". There.

 

[Balerion]

All sounds rather uncertain. An attitude that is frowned upon when experiencers "suggest" anything out of the ordinary but adopted as "okay" when skeptics want to "emphasize" without "proof".

How is it proof? You forget that the burden of proof is on the claimant, not me. I'm not trying to prove anything here. All I did was tell you what the man himself said about his own discovery.

O.K. Prove it wasn't a message from ET. Rightttttttttttt. You can't. Even the discoverer Jerry Ehman can't either. That's why the 'WOW Signal' is still an enigma. And even today the scientific community is still 'undecided' on whether or not the 'WOW Signal' after 29 years since it was detected in 1977 by the now defunct Ohio State Radio Telescope was a real alien radio signal from someone or something from deep space.

I can't prove it wasn't from an "ET", but you also can't prove that it was. Not only that, but it completely failed the tests that were supposed to do exactly that--prove its deep space origin.

If the signal had originated in space, it should have been picked up 5 seconds later by the next beam they were using to search. Also, they are supposed to point the reciever away, and then point it back at the same spot, and when the signal is found again, it is supposed to prove the signal's unearthly origin (and when that DOESN'T happen, it lends to the theory that the signal is merely something from Earth that has been reflected back at us thanks to space debris or something of that effect). Yet, if failed that test as well. The only thing the WOW! signal did was manage to be the strongest signal they had recorded, and the pattern held true to what would be most likely to come from an extraterrestrial origin.

If I sound uncertain, as you say, it's because I am. I, of course, am not sure if the WOW! signal was from ET or not, but I do tell you that it failed to meet any of the requirements for an ET signal, save the fact that it was so strong, and also, the man who found it, the man who believes that aliens exist and are most likely trying to contact someone, who has dedicated a good portion of his life to the search, does not believe that the signal was as fantastic as he had first thought. Even he said that it was most likely something else. And seeing as he has spent so many years in that field, listening and recording sound, I would say he's in a pretty good position to say so.

He cannot disprove its extraterrestrial origins, but he can make an educated guess, and form a theory based on the information he has. His conclusion is that it's bunk. That's good enough for me. It's the rest of you who have a problem with it, because you refuse to believe that there's a chance we're not being visited or contacted in some way. Grow up. Get over it.

JD

 

[Novacane]

Sounds like a broken record...........Judge for yourselves.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_wow_021205.html

 

[Meanwhile]

All I did was tell you what the man himself said about his own discovery.

Fink. You were paraphrasing and then emphatically crowed:

So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.

JD

I could almost see your pink tongue sticking out.

I can't prove it wasn't from an "ET", but you also can't prove that it was.

That's just the point. Presto.

 

[Meanwhile]

But who needs outdated techie nuts and bolts like SETI anyways when the real thing is a one-on-one fling. And when that happens, who bloody cares about proving "it" on a peudoscience forum!

 

[Balerion]

Fink. You were paraphrasing and then emphatically crowed:

Actually, I gave you a direct quote. Read my posts before you start replying. And that's real mature, you asshole; let's start with the name-calling.

That's just the point. Presto

You're misunderstanding me (as usual). The point I was making was that you guys tend to mistake the fact that you can't disprove a certain thing for proof. When Novacane mentioned:

Put it this way. When was the last time we recieved a 'confirmed' radio signal from another intelligent civilization from another solar system? 'WOW'! I just can't remember.

I simply said that it wasn't really proof since it wasn't confirmed.

You can all make claims that science is supposedly "undecided" about whether or not the signal was extraterrestrial in origin or not, but that's not the case. The signal was intriguing, but not proof.

The goal isn't to disprove something...it is to prove something. The burden is on the claimant. It's ignorant to say that it "hasn't been ruled out as extraterrestrial" for the simple fact that it was never ruled in! Until you prove it, it is mere speculation. The signal could just as easily have been a reflection of noise from Earth off of something in space, or noise from space.

That means what? That it isn't evidence, and it isn't proof. It was an event that raised eyebrows, because it fit one of the specific models for an interstellar radio transmission, but it also fails as either proof or evidence because it failed to meet any of the other requirements.

JD

 

[Kawika]

I began this argument with a logical statement.

It then branched off into a multitude of arguments.
that is good.

As for ET's visiting us, South West Indian folklore have "beings of great power" visiting them. folklore usually is based upon some truth. the amount of truth depends upon many factors (such as the original source and more)
As for the signals, I will re-state the technological gap. the Aliens may have a technology that we can not understand.
To put this another way, Africans beating on a log may compare to the soldier using a state of the art sat phone. the two can not understand each other and thus one may seem like "noise". the complete technological gap may "mask" the real message.
the true sign (in my opinion) to signals lies in the repetitive nature of the signal. We sent a probe into space with the following things
1. A chart of our system
2. biological nature of Mankind
3. Some historical data
4. other data etc... necessary for an ET to decipher

this would be like using a 5 1/4 disk. The potential ET would then be forced to find a way to translate it's technology so they can read the 5 1/4 disk. Some data will be lost. Any intelligent species would then want to visit the origin of this disk. Curiousity would be a most compelling reason. this is (of course) hypothetical and not proven, but curiousity propells mankind to explore, would it not be the same for an intelligent ET? Intelligence does provide for this curiousity.

1. If not for just seeing this "primitive" species (mankind), the ET would want to visit Earth.
2. The ET may want to see how far mankind has progressed.
3. If Mankind has progressed enough, then maybe he would be invited into some organization.
4. If mankind does not meet the technological developement, then maybe the ET would hold off this invitation until man does develope.
5. The ET would have monitored mankind and tracked his developement.

All the above are just hypothetical arguments, but they are valid ones.
Nature may repeat a signal, but it does not do it at a continued rate. Nature mixes and matches the signal.

SETI has been downgraded as "UFO and ET kooks" that is unfortunate. they may have some data we need to finally resolve this issue, but Formal Science has downgraded them as "UFO and ET kooks"
As for these other arguments, I must look into them.

 

[Stryder]

btw, WOW can't be used as proof, recieving a signal is one thing but what you really want is intelligent telemetry like a Phone call where two parties respond to one another. The WOW waveformation was shortlived and had no "Communication" attached to it.

 

[Novacane]

btw, WOW can't be used as proof, recieving a signal is one thing but what you really want is intelligent telemetry like a Phone call where two parties respond to one another. The WOW waveformation was shortlived and had no "Communication" attached to it.

No one said the 'WOW Signal' did.

 

[JoojooSpaceape]

The statistical probability of extraterrestial life is staggering.
We have over one hundred thousand planets out there circling too many solar systems. These systems are too far away to even see what the inhabitants look like.

Man is arrogant to assume that he is the only life form capable of breaking his terrestial bonds.

We must also assume that not all aliens are bipedal. As on Earth, physical shape is determined by the environment in which the animal has evolved and lived in. Only Man's arrogance automatically assumes that all aliens are bipedal.

Let us also consider the fact that light travels at a specific speed. This speed then becomes a standard. If a Galaxy is ten thousand LY (light years) away, then any light (both ways) would be then thousand years different. that means that the aliens would have a ten thousand year advance on us and we would seem like cave men to them.

Look at the speed in which the computer has developed. since the 1980's it has grown from the 286 to a mega clock computer that can do miracles (when compared to the original PC). Now imagine ten thousand years of computer development.

Also, imagine ten thousand years of trasnportation development. what is standard to them is "alien" to us. Again, look at the car. The Model A was the first car mass produced. Since then cars have evolved to complicated machines. Also, think of space travel. Man has launched himself into space with shuttles. Man has also created Ion driven sattellites. Woud it not be intelligent to think that a potential ten thousand advanced peoples would have developed an improved transportation system?

I will end this way, "Man has yet to disocver the entire ocean floor, determine if Nessie, and The Champlaign monster actually are either hoaxes or pre-hostoric animals. If man can not answere these, then how doe he expect to say categorically "NO LIFE OUTSIDE PLANET EARTH EXISTS"?

Well, Actually, I forget which astronomer said it, But one did say something to the effect that there was most certainly life out there, but the distance is far too great for them to ever come in contact or communication with us. Most people who understand to a degree the idea of using light speed as a method of travel, would agree with this. You also however need to understand that with the probability that we will someday, Possibly come in contact with an alien race, that there is a greater probability that we will not. You're thinking of it as "we exist, so there must be others" But every other time, every other possible chance for a complex organism to come to life on another planet that did not come to fruition, there was no one there to think "There must be others".

 

[Novacane]

The Neanderthals got it right, didn't they.

 

[barehandkiller]

I do not believe the speed of light is the fastest speed possible. There are many ways to possibly travel faster, wormholes, instant remanifestation too the place of desired destination. Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right? And what about zero point energy, its supposed to be infinite iirc, so as long as you had a method to tap into it you would then have infinite energy available anyway.
Peace

 

[Novacane]

I do not believe the speed of light is the fastest speed possible. There are many ways to possibly travel faster, wormholes, instant remanifestation too the place of desired destination. Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right? And what about zero point energy, its supposed to be infinite iirc, so as long as you had a method to tap into it you would then have infinite energy available anyway.
Peace

Right now, I recommend just building a big mother craft filled with a bunch of mute retarded midgets (they take up less space) and toss in a soon-to-be retired two-term Republican president for good measure and then send them on to Alpha Centauri. One giant step for mankind

 

[Stryder]

Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right?

There is no such thing as "Negative Gravity", however there are ways to create things to float using either Electromagnetic's or other frequencies by matricing. A simple explaination is to take a sheet of A4 paper and understand that it represents space. If you hold the sheet at both ends and then place a heavy weight in the middle, the likelihood is the paper will tear. However if you fold the paper to make a concertina pattern, you can stand that same weight on the folded paper and the paper will carry the load.

Gravity distorts space while other frequencies of light and sound are actual distortions of space. The higher the density of the distortion the greater the apposing force to mass.

 

[Balerion]

Ok, where do I begin...I'll reply to Kawika first.

As for ET's visiting us, South West Indian folklore have "beings of great power" visiting them. folklore usually is based upon some truth. the amount of truth depends upon many factors (such as the original source and more)

Ok, so I won't jump to conclusions about that comment. I read it at first like you were saying that because there are records of early civilizations dealing with "beings of higher power" that ET must have visited us, but upon a second inspection, I don't think that's what you're saying. What I think you're saying is that because we have these accounts, there is always the possibility that perhaps we have been visited.

I can live with that. But at the same time, I really don't agree with the mentality of "Well, that's a total possibility, so let's leave it at that" and I don't like it because just taking something at value isn't scientific. I know that sounds really arrogant, but what I meant by it was that you aren't trying to understand anything if you aren't constantly questioning, and I think that if we all just say "The South West Indians said so...so maybe..." then we aren't going to investigate further. Personally, I think those accounts are either folklore or myth, and while those have some roots in truth, they all take wild leaps into fiction, and I think the leap comes at the point of these beings having "Great Powers".

As for the signals, I will re-state the technological gap. the Aliens may have a technology that we can not understand.

First, we dont' know if there are any intelligent beings at all in the universe. We assume that there are, and it's a fairly safe assumption when taking into account the size and scope of the universe, but it is still only an assumption. Second, there is a very annoying trend in the ET believership, and it's that these aliens must be both much older than us, and much more advanced than us. While I agree that assuming that there is intelligence elsewhere in the universe is a safe one, I don't agree that said intelligence has to be more advanced than we are.

I think that this belief system is a human archetype. Man must believe that there is something greater than He. I think that much in the same way the various religious sects and their gods were born from humanity's lack of understanding regrarding the wonders of the natural world around them, extraterrestrials have become the new God. Don't laugh, because it makes sense. Just look at some of the popular beliefs in the UFO world! Many people in fact believe that aliens might have seeded our planet, while others actually believe that we are nothing more than a harvest in a greater galactic farm run by huge aliens...it's true! People really believe this! In a world where we pretty much know what's what, the only way to find something superior to humanity, we must look now (and can look now) to the stars.

If you read religious texts, the place that is referred to as "heaven" is the sky. Heaven is always up , if you haven't noticed, and now, since we can see clearly that Heaven isn't up there, we have to take the next step...advanced extraterrestrial life.

It is widely accepted by scholars and scientists and skeptics alike that life must exist elsewhere, even intelligent life, but no one even considers that perhaps we are the most advanced. Perhaps we are the oldest, or, at the very least, the oldest remaining civilization. Nobody ever says that. It's funny how I will most likely be called crazy for making that statement, and yet everyone will accept when someone says "There are aliens with rayguns who are sending radio transmissions to Earth."

And a little bit on SETI...I hope everyone understands that we aren't expecting a communication from ET through SETI...it's widely understood that if there were to be a signal caught, we would not be able to understand it. That is why there are protocols in place to determine the non-natural nature of the signals...we are only looking (and hoping) for a signal that is clearly artificial, not something we can decode and decipher, because that is not going to happen.

Even the little thing we launched into space with our "information" on it...we aren't (or shouldn't be) expecting an alien species to find it and play the disk, or read the words, or understand it in the slightest...what will be clear if it were to be found by someone is that it is in fact artificial. The message isn't important, the physical object is.

JD

 

[Trinket]

There is no doubt that what "we" would deem alien life already exists above earths atmosphere as well as below our Oceans, On the Moon, Mars, Venus and most likely through out our solar system..

Like a bunch of chimpanzee's the world has jumped to the DOD's (dept of defense's) Monkee show called Nasa.. With Amazing abilities in planetary Rocketry..along with understandings of Planetary dynamics . When the defense dept wanted a great jet, they hired Lockheed Martin,Grumman, why not Kodak for their camera's..

Fortunately with new privately owned telescopes reality may come about to the masses.

Hey theres a moon out tonight

 

[Balerion]

Well, Actually, I forget which astronomer said it, But one did say something to the effect that there was most certainly life out there, but the distance is far too great for them to ever come in contact or communication with us. Most people who understand to a degree the idea of using light speed as a method of travel, would agree with this

Well, joojoospaceape, I agree with that. You kind of have to imagine that there is a star somewhere out there that has a planet in its orbit that is harboring life as we speak. If we are here, like you say, then there must be life elsewhere.

But I don't think that we've been visited. If an alien race that is far superior to us lives in a galaxy 100 million light years from here, (or even 1 thousand light years from here...hell, 500 light years from here) the chances that they have been here are near zero. Let's even assume that this advanced race has light speed travel capabilities (which they don't) then the distances between us are far, far, far too great.

And with all the supposed UFO sightings, people believe that aliens are visiting us and doing so on a regular basis. But to that, I have to say that even if there was an alien race living in the Andromeda Galaxy, what makes everyone think that they'd have the resources to travel here, and to do so with such regularity. I don't care how advanced this alien race is, there are still things that must come with civilization that they aren't immune to, such as government and money. Even if an alien race had the capabilities to get to Earth in a decent amount of time, (a year or two) why does everyone think that it's happening? A trip from a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy to the Milky Way would have to be incredibly expensive, wouldn't it?

There are too many factors for visitation to be possible. Distance being one, resources being another, and the theories which state FTL (Faster than light travel) is pretty much impossible, at least for matter, and even for something with zero mass, it's never been proven.

JD

 

[Balerion]

There is no doubt that what "we" would deem alien life already exists above earths atmosphere as well as below our Oceans, On the Moon, Mars, Venus and most likely through out our solar system..

How do you mean that? Alien life as in life that exists despite being in what we would consider unlivable conditions? If that's what you mean, then we've already found life in places like that. But we wouldn't consider that "alien", rather, we have just stated that life can live in even some of the most extreme places, under the most extreme conditions.

I don't think anyone is doubting the notion that life can exist in many places where we had (or still) previously think it is impossible. We've found cases of extreme life on Earth, so it's a known possibility that life can find a way to survive, and even thrive, in almost any condition.

Fortunately with new privately owned telescopes reality may come about to the masses

I don't understand what you mean? Are you saying that NASA is covering up the idea that there is in fact alien life on the Moon, Mars and Venus? Well, if that's what you're saying, you're wrong. NASA is an underfunded organization which would kill for a find such as alien life, even in microbe or fossil form. I don't believe for one second that they would hide a discovery of that magnitude. If NASA found life on the Moon, it would be known. And to calm you conspiricy theory freaks, I'm not talking about intelligent life. If they were to find microbes on Mars or the Moon, they'd tell everyone.

And for that matter, there's no reason to hide the discovery of intelligent life, either. Imagine the funding, both governmental and private, a group like NASA would recieve if they discovered that there was an intelligent (even advanced...or even simplistic) form of life on another planet! It's stupid to imagine that the governments of the world would hide that. And just because everyone thinks America would hide it, we aren't the only nation in the world. If Russia were to make the discovery, or England, or Poland, or whoever, they would tell, and it would get to us here. The American government can't keep us from hearing it.

JD