The seemingly anti-gay thread

Actually we can make the brain see images by directly inputing images through wires into it (thus enabling some blind people to see, terrible quality atm though), I bet the same can be done with sounds. That is about outer intervation, but there theoretically is also the telekinetic (was this the right word?) ability for one person to talk to another through mind and also don't disregard your own mind and subconsciousness. It's very possible to hear a voice which is from you, but you don't identify it as yours.

I know whose voice I listen to
Know and believe are two different things.
 
Avatar said:
Actually we can make the brain see images by directly inputing images through wires into it (thus enabling some blind people to see, terrible quality atm though.

lmfao. I prefer the wireless approach personally.

Oh im dying of laughter here :D

peace

c20
 
what's so funny about that? to many people not your god , but this technology enabled to not be run down by a car on a street.

there was a discovery program on this. sure, they see only black and white shadowy shapes, but that is better than complete blackness.

repeat after me: shoulder mounted digital camera
 
c20H25N3o said:

Gay's are lobbying people who 'feel' that homosexuality is disgusting. How are you going to convince them that homosexuals will do them no harm? How will you convince them that homosexuality is a really positive thing for society? Because in my view, I do not think concessions will be made until homosexuality can be portrayed as a really positive beneficial thing.

To the people who feel that homosexuality is disgusting, I can only say that this is the purpose of the idea of "tolerance". Americans tolerate nearly anything that falls between "slightly detrimental" and "neutral". Why break that trend? We smoke, commute single-occupancy, don't know quite what to do with nuclear waste, opt toward a mixed economy most clearly defined by capitalism. We eat Twinkies, MSG, and bacon. We tolerate smelly street people to a degree because it's easier than doing anything else.

So gays shouldn't have to even prove themselves "neutral". Being a minor detriment to society is acceptable, as indicated by the clear majority of deadbeat dads who are heterosexual. We tolerate crooked businesses; I once called the Better Business Bureau to inquire about a scam running through the University of Oregon and the man I spoke with confirmed that, by the sound of it, what I was describing was illegal; he confessed that he had a five-year backlog on his desk, though. Down at the Bureau they love the clear-cut, but everything must come in its due order. They're so impotent and understaffed that they're barely a formal demonstration of a proper and valid social concern. We accept detriment if it makes money. If it makes us feel better for the time being. I mean, look at these 11 ballot measures challenging the U.S. Constitution that passed this month. Eleven states with enough people who feel it acceptable to waste time, money, life, and liberty just to feel better about that shiver that runs through them at the thought of same-gender sexual contact, whose hearts and lunches lurch at the thought that two people of the same gender can love one another so.

In the Tulia disaster, which orphaned 16% of the black community's children, the guy who received the highest sentence was actually white--and married to a black woman. I mention it because interracial marriage had to prove itself to a double-standard that accommodated the cold shiver that ran through some folks at the thought of a black man touching a white woman. And that lurch when they stop to think she likes it. Even loves it.

When it comes to sex issues, it's an perception that phallocentrism is challenged. Black men were lynched for having consensual sex with white women. Thomas Jefferson, on the other hand, was president. Go figure.

"Feeble masculinity" is what is at issue here--Billy's feeble masculinity (the product of a divorced family), the feeble masculinity of divorced men who can't keep their families, the feeble masculinity of men whose prerogatives within the family are not what they once were, and, perhaps, the feeble masculinity of depleted and economically abandoned Oregon mill towns . . . .

Elsewhere in her discussion of Helms's legislation, Butler delineates the same slide from homosexuality to pedophilia to sadomasochism that informs Measure 9:
"The exploitation of children" comes [immediately after sadomasochism in the text of Helms's legislation], at which point I begin to wonder: what reasons are there for grouping these three categories together? Do they lead to each other, as if the breaking of one taboo necessitates a virtual riot of perversion? Or is there, implicit in the sequencing and syntax of this legal text, a figure of the homosexual, apparently male, who practices sadomasochism and preys on young boys, or who practices sadomasochism with young boys, a homosexuality which is perhaps defined as sadomasochism and the exploitation of children? Perhaps this is an effort to define restrictively the sexual exploiter of children as the sadomasochistic male homosexual in order, quite conveniently, to locate the source of child sexual abuse outside the home, safeguarding the family as the unregulated sexual property of the father? (Butler 116)​
Clearly, this construction of the family has a long history in the American New Right. To take Butler's interpretation a bit further, the family may be said to be consolidated, if not constituted, by this very fantasy. Indeed, the "ideological rearguard action" (Watney 43) which is the family in late twentieth-century America can be seen as the product of a series of similar fabrications. The discourse of "Family Values" rarely articulates what these values might be, but spends a great deal of time asserting that various people or social formations (homosexuals, feminism, single motherhood) are a threat to them.


(Kent)

The article quoted above also notes the "sufficiently invisible lesbian", and points out a statistical issue that suggests the entire fight in Oregon is not about same-sex contact in general, but that cold shiver that comes at the thought of two men enjoying one another's bodies.

For a people so conditioned to consider heterosexuality nature's uniform way--it's not--homosexuality can be a source of confusion, even if one is not gay. Traditional, comfortable identity expectations are upended, hence the cold shiver. And for many, though not all, who feel that cold shiver, much of it is reflective. A man might look at his gay son and be unable to cope with the thought that his boy likes to be penetrated and pounded. This is in part because the father in this case is comfortable in his own sexual role but recognizes some reflection of the same disrespect in the way he does his wife. I've watched a heterosexual man obsess over the detail of his unborn daughter's future sex life: at some point, you actually have to stop these guys and say, "Yes, yes, boys are scum if you have a daughter, but do you realize how much time you've spent this week thinking about your daughter having sex, and she's not even born yet?" I mean, it's not quite a cold shiver for me, but damn it was creepy. Sure, the customary, "I'll kick his ass," is fine, but I'm glad I got to witness it before I had one on the way because it actually reiterated some ineffable that I'd been wondering about since I saw it the first time.

It's all a tightly-knit loop. One of the things that many women deal with after sexual abuse is a cycle of blame that comes from believing arbitrary standards about sexuality. If we conceptually demonize sex, there will be a natural feedback loop. The anxieties about homosexuality come from a basic distrust of other people that reflects one's own attitudes about self and sex and identity. People invent or suffer these anxieties about almost everyone they meet, but it's really easy to latch onto something like homosexuality.

The shiver runs deep, but the reality is that it's entirely self-involved. How to convince the homophobes? Some days it seems you can't. You can only lay out the facts and ask for fair consideration, but even that's too much to ask of people. Hell, their lives get simpler when they let go of the obsession that comes from that shiver, but somehow it's unkind to help people not be afraid.

In the meantime, we are born, we die, and the waves roll on. And as long as it's someone else suffering the results of one's injustice, one apparently has no reason to care.
____________________

Notes:
Kent, Le'a. "Abnormal, Wrong, Unnatural and Perverse: Taking the Measure (9) Out of the Closet". See http://eserver.org/cultronix/kent/
 
"My ways are not your ways"

Of course not. Do not try to make them my ways - or our ways.
That's what's being challenged here.

You tell me to go and see the doctor for my delusions.

Do I? No, I simply say some good anti-psychotics would clear them up. I don't say you should do anything.
How well entrenched the idea of force is in your mind. I haven't told you to do a damn thing.

What's the issue? Certainly not Jesus. Christianity is the cause of some of this but not the sole cause. The issue is whether we think people ought to have the freedom to make their own sexual choices and not be unduly chastened for them. The issue is whether dour, ugly authoritarians should legislate based on what we do in bed and between consenting partners.

I talk to my Gods. I don't tell you not to talk to yours, and that's not the relevent issue.

lori:
But I shrugged it off, and proceeded to make out with him by the end of the evening.

I'll have to remember that when I'm flirting with a man - "God told me not to make out with you, but I am anyway"
 
c20H25N3o said:
"My ways are not your ways"

Simple as that.

You seem to profess that we are on equal footing in this respect, yet still insist that despite this you somehow have some sort of divine entitlement to be the dictator of the lives of others? Where does this come from? If our beliefs are both just as valid does that men that I should be able to impose mine on you just as you impose yours on me? Or is it simply that neither of us has a right to turn out views into law for the other?

You bring up the point that many of our legislatures hold views similar to yours, that homosexuality is evil and sinful. But like your views they are equally as arbitrary, and these elected officials have an obligation to protect the rights of the people that they represent. Homosexuals are American citizens. Our rights are just as implicit in the constitution as are your own because there is no differentiation. Gay or straight we are citizens and the government is supposed to work for us not against us. Why then are the rights of homosexuals denied? Granting them effects no one but homosexuals, and denying them effects no one but homosexuals. Is a congressman’s own vanity and sense of moral superiority more important to preserve than the ideals of our constitution? Is it grounds to oppress a segment of the population, or is it nothing but petty irrational fear and abuse of power?

Removing the rights of others just because it makes you feel good is a dangerous game to play. It may suit you in the short term, but somehow I find that if the situation were a bit different and heathens atheists and devil worshipers controlled the nation and outlawed Christian Churches simply because it put a big malicious grin on their face to watch you squirm you’d have some objections to the way government is being run. In that situation I might think it ironic that you’ve gotten back exactly what you had to offer me, but I still wouldn’t say that it’s just by any measure.

Call me old fashioned, or an American fundamentalist, but somehow I just can't bring myself to agree with the idea that man has no inalienable rights, that he's not entitled to a damned thing aside from what those in power are willing to give him. And I certainly don't think that the will of the majority is a tool, which should be used to persecute a minority. For my part I should be glad that these are ideas reflected in our Constitution.
 
Mystech said:
You seem to profess that we are on equal footing in this respect, yet still insist that despite this you somehow have some sort of divine entitlement to be the dictator of the lives of others? Where does this come from? If our beliefs are both just as valid does that men that I should be able to impose mine on you just as you impose yours on me? Or is it simply that neither of us has a right to turn out views into law for the other?

You bring up the point that many of our legislatures hold views similar to yours, that homosexuality is evil and sinful. But like your views they are equally as arbitrary, and these elected officials have an obligation to protect the rights of the people that they represent. Homosexuals are American citizens. Our rights are just as implicit in the constitution as are your own because there is no differentiation. Gay or straight we are citizens and the government is supposed to work for us not against us. Why then are the rights of homosexuals denied? Granting them effects no one but homosexuals, and denying them effects no one but homosexuals. Is a congressman’s own vanity and sense of moral superiority more important to preserve than the ideals of our constitution? Is it grounds to oppress a segment of the population, or is it nothing but petty irrational fear and abuse of power?

Removing the rights of others just because it makes you feel good is a dangerous game to play. It may suit you in the short term, but somehow I find that if the situation were a bit different and heathens atheists and devil worshipers controlled the nation and outlawed Christian Churches simply because it put a big malicious grin on their face to watch you squirm you’d have some objections to the way government is being run. In that situation I might think it ironic that you’ve gotten back exactly what you had to offer me, but I still wouldn’t say that it’s just by any measure.

Call me old fashioned, or an American fundamentalist, but somehow I just can't bring myself to agree with the idea that man has no inalienable rights, that he's not entitled to a damned thing aside from what those in power are willing to give him. And I certainly don't think that the will of the majority is a tool, which should be used to persecute a minority. For my part I should be glad that these are ideas reflected in our Constitution.

But it is a misunderstanding which says that it is an abuse of power on the part of the policy makers (I, c20, am not a policy maker). The policy makers are subscribing to the common good in the name of getting votes. There is no magic here, no conspiracy afoot, it is about votes.
This is why I said, when there are more pro-homosexuals in the voting body, than there are anti-homosexuals, we will see a change in policy. The job of the homosexual therefore is to try and win over the votes of the heterosexual community. How will you do this? This is the real question on the table? It is not about abuse of power.
All of this I say without predudice Mystech I promise you. Hopefully you will see that :)

peace

c20
 
Xev said:
Of course not. Do not try to make them my ways - or our ways.
That's what's being challenged here.



Do I? No, I simply say some good anti-psychotics would clear them up. I don't say you should do anything.
How well entrenched the idea of force is in your mind. I haven't told you to do a damn thing.

What's the issue? Certainly not Jesus. Christianity is the cause of some of this but not the sole cause. The issue is whether we think people ought to have the freedom to make their own sexual choices and not be unduly chastened for them. The issue is whether dour, ugly authoritarians should legislate based on what we do in bed and between consenting partners.

I talk to my Gods. I don't tell you not to talk to yours, and that's not the relevent issue.

lori:


I'll have to remember that when I'm flirting with a man - "God told me not to make out with you, but I am anyway"

Xev, recently you were very honest in another thread about a gay relationship you had with your boyfriend's sister and that you felt guilty about it. You hoped that because she had always been sexually repressed by her upbringing, she would be too afraid to tell anyone and you would be off the hook.

Potentially, when it does all come out, and it will if what you say is true, your insistence on your freedom to pursue sexual conduct with this woman, will cause much trouble in their family. It will no doubt bring shame on their family name and you will not be trusted anymore.
Since a man's reputation is everything to him and your boyfriend's dad is a man, do you blame the lawmakers from discouraging such actions against mothers, sons and daughters through legislation?

Doesn't society have a right to try and protect the family in the name of the father?

thanks

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:

As I have tried to point out, this is about majority voting but you seem to reject this method as unfair. If you want to bring voters over to your side, how will you convince them?

I didn't cover a certain point earlier: Why do they get to vote on this, anyway? It's unconstitutional to deny someone equal protection based on their gender. Should the people be allowed to vote on a measure to keep women barefoot and pregnant? Should the people be allowed to vote that all Christians should be given psychotherapy, medication, and electroshock? No.

Logically, what is the point in passing a law that won't withstand constitutional scrutiny? To feel better about yourself? This is a ridiculous and exploitative waste of the democratic process. All it says is that a majority of participating voters reject equal protection under the law; that is, they reject a cornerstone of American equality.

I would ask a great favor here. I would ask you to fill in the blank:
Equal protection under the law (14th Amendment) should be denied to a person on the basis of their gender because __________.

I can't figure out what goes in the blank. Nobody else can fill me in, either. Help make this make sense to me. Please.
____________________

Erratum - Correction: I have been employing a poorly-conceive slogan of late, which depends on an erroneous definition of the legal term suspect class. I had it exactly backwards. Previously I have said gender is not a suspect classification, while in fact it is. This is to my great embarrassment, although it is to my relief that it changes none the point that one cannot discriminate on the basis of gender.

Notes on the Fourteenth Amendment:
Legal Information Institute. "U.S. Constitution - Amendment XIV". See http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html

Legal Information Institute. "Equal Protection: An Overview". See http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/equal_protection.html
Generally, the question of whether the equal protection clause has been violated arises when a state grants a particular class of individuals the right to engage in activity yet denies other individuals the same right. There is no clear rule for deciding when a classification is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has dictated the application of different tests depending on the type of classification and it's effect on fundamental rights. Traditionally, the Court finds a state classification constitutional if it has "a rational basis" to a "legitimate state purpose." The Supreme Court, however, has applied more stringent analysis in certain cases. It will "strictly scrutinize" a distinction when it embodies a "suspect classification." In order for a classification to be subject to strict scrutiny, it must be shown that the state law or its administration is meant to discriminate. Usually, if a purpose to discriminate is found the classification will be strictly scrutinized if it is based on race, national origin, or, in some situations, non U.S. citizenship (the suspect classes). In order for a classification to be found permissible under this test it must be proven, by the state, that there is a compelling interest to the law and that the classification is necessary to further that interest. The Court will also apply a strict scrutiny test if the classification interferes with fundamental rights such as first amendment rights, the right to privacy, or the right to travel. The Supreme Court also requires states to show more than a rational basis (though it does not apply the strictly scrutiny test) for classifications based on gender or a child's status as illegitimate.

LII
 
tiassa said:
I didn't cover a certain point earlier: Why do they get to vote on this, anyway? It's unconstitutional to deny someone equal protection based on their gender. Should the people be allowed to vote on a measure to keep women barefoot and pregnant? Should the people be allowed to vote that all Christians should be given psychotherapy, medication, and electroshock? No.

Logically, what is the point in passing a law that won't withstand constitutional scrutiny? To feel better about yourself? This is a ridiculous and exploitative waste of the democratic process. All it says is that a majority of participating voters reject equal protection under the law; that is, they reject a cornerstone of American equality.

I would ask a great favor here. I would ask you to fill in the blank:
Equal protection under the law (14th Amendment) should be denied to a person on the basis of their gender because __________.

I can't figure out what goes in the blank. Nobody else can fill me in, either. Help make this make sense to me. Please.
____________________

Erratum - Correction: I have been employing a poorly-conceive slogan of late, which depends on an erroneous definition of the legal term suspect class. I had it exactly backwards. Previously I have said gender is not a suspect classification, while in fact it is. This is to my great embarrassment, although it is to my relief that it changes none the point that one cannot discriminate on the basis of gender.

Notes on the Fourteenth Amendment:
Legal Information Institute. "U.S. Constitution - Amendment XIV". See http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html

Legal Information Institute. "Equal Protection: An Overview". See http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/equal_protection.html

Tiassa, I hear your point but it is the reality of the current time that you must deal with. So I ask again, how will you convince the heterosexual voter?
Surely the cornerstone of American constitution is to live together without fear of eachother. The heterosexual fears homosexuality whether they admit it or not. If they did not fear and theirfore reject homosexuality themselves then they would be happy for it to be conducted under their own roofs and would be happy to partake in it of themselves. But for the average American, the family is at the cornerstone of the consititution. It is about achieving total equality among all families in the land. Now you may say "But my mother and father approve of what I do and so does my gay partners's, so what is that to the American Constitition? Are we not families too?"
Yes of course you are but the union of your two families will never bear fruit. Your genes are unfruitful and are then cut off from the rest of the collective so that the earth's resources are not wasted and are given to the fruitful instead. This is the law of nature. The seperation of the chaff from the wheat. Survival of the fittest so to speak. The fittest of course being the most fruitful. How can homosexuals benefit a collective whose prime directive is to procreate?

Thanks

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
The policy makers are subscribing to the common good in the name of getting votes. There is no magic here, no conspiracy afoot, it is about votes.

This idea is flawed, however. We're not supposed to allow the rights of a minority to be destroyed in the name of the whim of the Majority. If a majority of people still believed in using African Americans as slaves would we put them back into bondage?

Thinking that the Majority has the right to dictate the very lives of minorities is an archaic and dangerous idea not at all in line with the principals of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that this country is founded on. Check the 14th amendment, we're all entitled to equal protection under the law.
 
Mystech said:
This idea is flawed, however. We're not supposed to allow the rights of a minority to be destroyed in the name of the whim of the Majority. If a majority of people still believed in using African Americans as slaves would we put them back into bondage?

Thinking that the Majority has the right to dictate the very lives of minorities is an archaic and dangerous idea not at all in line with the principals of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that this country is founded on. Check the 14th amendment, we're all entitled to equal protection under the law.

But we do have a minority and majority so the Constitution that you seek protection from is flawed in nature. You say that the majority may not impose their rights on the minority but under the same constitution of equal rights, the majority may not be overruled by the minority either. Only when there is unity may the constitution be valid, and in the context of unity there would be no need for a written law, for everyone would be doing the will of God and bearing fruit to give to eachother in love i.e. increasing the total yield of the collective.
You do see what I am saying dont you?

Thanks

c20
 
everyone would be doing the will of God and bearing fruit to give to eachother in love i.e. increasing the total yield of the collective.
I hope that one day religion will be banned from Sciforums.
I did exactly the same thing at my forums and it's peace and almost blissful unity from then on.
 
Avatar said:
I hope that one day religion will be banned from Sciforums.
I did exactly the same thing at my forums and it's peace and almost blissful unity from then on.

Speak to the web master Gravity. See if he will listen to you.

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
But for the average American, the family is at the cornerstone of the consititution.

That's and odd discrepancy with the actual constitution being that it is largely concerned with the powers of the government, and laying a framework for the protection of the rights of individual citizens. Tell me, where in the constitution is family even mentioned? If your assessment is correct then it would seem the average American should have paid attention in their American history/government classes.

c20H25N3o said:
It is about achieving total equality among all families in the land.

Except the families that bigots don't approve of?

c20H25N3o said:
Yes of course you are but the union of your two families will never bear fruit. Your genes are unfruitful and are then cut off from the rest of the collective so that the earth's resources are not wasted and are given to the fruitful instead. This is the law of nature. The seperation of the chaff from the wheat. Survival of the fittest so to speak.

I'm sure this sounded really good in your head just before you pulled it out of your ass. . . the fact that the two are so closely related really sort of disturbs me.

Did you consider the fact that there's absolutely no legal bases for a single thing you've just said? This is nothing but ad hoc rationalizing, you're doing nothing but tacking on meaningless BS to try to pad out your argument and justify an eroding position.

c20H25N3o said:
The fittest of course being the most fruitful.

Come on now, if you honestly believe that there was any sort of effort in the US to control reproduction then why would we allow trailer park trash to breed without a license? Survival of the fittest? Do you even know what that phrase means? If it were natural then why would we have to make laws to set it in motion? How fast to homosexuals breed that we need to keep them in line? have you thought any of this out at all before you just vomited it out into cyberspace?

c20H25N3o said:
How can homosexuals benefit a collective whose prime directive is to procreate?

I think most Americans would have something to say about their country being described as a collective. . . sounds kinda' communistic, don't you think? And who said that the purpose of the nation (or whatever you're talking about at this point) was to procreate? I think most people have other goals in their life as well. As for contributions to society Homosexuals have been living in this same society that you and everyone else has, they've been working and paying their dues just the same as everyone else, hell they've even gone that extra mile when it comes to artistic literary and even computing (Look up Alan Turing, he's the guy who proposed we turn computers from giant calculators to multi-tasking logic machines that can perform any function that a human brain can, and was also instrumental in breaking the Nazi enigma code and helping us win WWII), they've been far from useless to say the least. But then no heterosexual has had to prove his usefulness to get his rights, he was just born as a human being and was a Citizen. That's the only requirement our great society claims should be necessary.
 
c20H25N3o said:
But we do have a minority and majority so the Constitution that you seek protection from is flawed in nature. You say that the majority may not impose their rights on the minority but under the same constitution of equal rights, the majority may not be overruled by the minority either.

You entirely misunderstand this concept, and make invalid accusations against the constitution.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the idea of a freedom or a right, the very wording of your post displays that. No one is accusing anyone of imposing "rights", we're talking about retaining rights. We've got a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We've got a right to equal protection under the law, and no majority consensus is supposed to have the power to take that away from anyone. But that's exactly what we've got in this situation. This is what separates Democracy from mere mob rule, there are rulings which the majority simply can not make because it imposes on the guaranteed rights of the minority.

And you're right, the minority isn't supposed to do that to the majority either. Your implication that if homosexuals were allowed to get married that this would be the case is woefully incorrect. Homosexual marriage doesn't effect you, it doesn't have a god damned thing to do with you or your rights, homosexuals rights are the only ones which are at stake here, and as such they are the ones who should have say over their own fate, not some scowling third party that preaches how homosexuality is a sin, but you've got to act like you have a pointy stick up your ass if you want to get to heaven.
 
c2h:
Xev, recently you were very honest in another thread about a gay relationship you had with your boyfriend's sister and that you felt guilty about it. You hoped that because she had always been sexually repressed by her upbringing, she would be too afraid to tell anyone and you would be off the hook.

Shit man, you bought that?! Someone call the irony police.

Potentially, when it does all come out, and it will if what you say is true, your insistence on your freedom to pursue sexual conduct with this woman, will cause much trouble in their family. It will no doubt bring shame on their family name and you will not be trusted anymore.

That's what makes it so darn kinky. Plus she's into bondage and threesomes, I mean - how else am I gonna find a chick like that?

Since a man's reputation is everything to him and your boyfriend's dad is a man, do you blame the lawmakers from discouraging such actions against mothers, sons and daughters through legislation?

No.
A person is responsible for their actions (fascist) and only they can be held responsible for their actions (weakling fascist) whatever the consequences may be.
I realize this is frightening to you (fascist) considering how you need to be dominated (weakling fascist) because you're not an inherently creative person. However, even a weakling like you should recognize how immoral it is to do actual harm to a person in the hopes of protecting other people from conceptual harm.

Could you justify imprisoning a person for their potentially being a murderer?
I hope not.
So how can you justify denying healthcare benefits, as you weakling fascists did with proposition two, to a perfectly decent person just because they might possibly offend somone?

This is something you may not quite understand, so I'll spell it out:

My country was founded by people who valued personal liberty. Changed as much as it has, you're not going to change it to a lesser emphasis on that.
 
Avatar,

You don't have to post here man! Come on...you don't even have to open up the forum and take a peek inside...Lord knows there's a big fat "Religion Forum" label on it. Years ago, when I first came to post here on exoscience, it was one big forum. There were no "sub-forums", or divisions pertaining to subject matter. It was just one big hodge-podge where anything and everything went. So I went out there screaming Jesus to a bunch of atheist scientists and new age hippies. A couple of extremes, with seemingly nothing much in between, and certainly no born again Christians that I could tell. And here I was talking about Revelation and the mark of the beast and how aliens were demonic. Oh man, they hated me so much. I'm sure that what I was saying was like fingernails on a chalk board to them. Which is not what I wanted it to sound like I assure you...actually my feelings got quite hurt. So anyway...it wasn't too long until some of the atheist scientists went to Porfiry and asked him to segregate the forum, so that they would not have to listen to my Jesus rantings. Actually, they probably had asked him to boot me off entirely, and not allow such things to be discussed at all, as you are suggesting Avatar, but what he did was segregate the forums. So thanks to me and my love of Jesus, and what God spoke to me years ago, we have this nice little religious forum to post and debate in. And since then, it has become one of the most popular forums on the site. Well, I shouldn't say thanks to me...thanks to God. He is the One who spoke these things to me...He loved me first. He is the One who comes with the sword of truth to divide and conquer. It is His truth that some can not bear to hear...and it is His love that we all desperately seek. So praise the Lord!!!!! And kudos to Porf for not kicking my ass off of here years ago, and giving all of us, no matter what our beliefs are, such a groovy site to share on. Love you bunches Porf baby. *smooch*
 
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c20H25N3o said:
Oh why do you not see it? I am STRAIGHT!!! If I didn't find it abhorrent I would be a homosexual.
I don't find it abhorrent, so does that mean that I'm gay? You can still be straight and a human being that recognises that your fellow human beings should be allowed the same rights as you. It's called tolerance. You should look it up sometime. Hell I'm sure it's even mentioned in your bible in several places.

Now the reason that Gay people are denied the rights is because it is primarily a homophobic bunch of straight people making the laws. There is no judgement here.
Homosexuals are denied their rights because the lawmakers are homophobic and you don't see any form of judgement passing there? Riiiiggghhttt...

All I hear is the complaints of the homosexual but I am describing why their cries for justice are falling on deaf ears.
You're not describing c20, you're agreeing and you're fighting as to why they should be denied any rights because you find it abhorrent. Of course there's no judgement there. That just makes you blind to reality and a hypocrite.

My point concerning The 'rights issues' is that Gay's are lobbying people who 'feel' that homosexuality is disgusting. How are you going to convince them that homosexuals will do them no harm? How will you convince them that homosexuality is a really positive thing for society? Because in my view, I do not think concessions will be made until homosexuality can be portrayed as a really positive beneficial thing.
So you don't think that human beings who are different than you should be allowed any rights until they can prove that their differences are beneficial to society as a whole? I wonder if the African American's had to prove if they were beneficial to society before they were allowed to sit down at the front of the bus. I can hear that argument now... 'yes master, I am beneficial to society because I am cheap labour, so I should be allowed to sit down in the front of the bus'.

For the last time. I do not judge anyone upon meeting them. If they are cool, then they are cool. All my bad experiences have started out with me thinking the person is cool to start with. It was not until they revealed their homosexual nature to me that I became like a child, wanting to run as far from it as possible.
You don't judge them until they tell you they are homosexual. You were saying before about not judging people? You'd actually prefer that someone be dishonest and lie about their sexuality and you'd think they were cool, instead of someone actually being honest with you and telling you that they are homosexual and if they tell you, you'd suddenly find them disgusting. Lovely. Really lovely. Amazing how you can say that you might really like someone and treat them as an equal until they tell you they're homosexual and then you say 'ick' and throw them out for being honest with you.

I treat everyone as friend until they attack me personally and then by their own hand they become my enemy. Note I do not take any revenge, I just run away so that I do not come to any harm.
You treat everyone as a friend until they tell you that they are homosexual, and then they become your enemy. That says a lot about you c20, a whole lot.

I know whose voice I listen to and thank God it is there. This is a terribly difficult life for a man to bear.
So you have several voices that you can distinguish as to which one is the good one? I can understand now why life would be difficult for you to bear. Schizophrenia would not an easy illness to live with.

But it is a misunderstanding which says that it is an abuse of power on the part of the policy makers (I, c20, am not a policy maker). The policy makers are subscribing to the common good in the name of getting votes.
And you, being the good citizen that you are, vote for the one's who advocating denying homosexuals the same rights you have. And then blindsight your hypocrisy by referring to it as the 'common good'. Why is that c20? Why does it serve the whole to deny the homosexual minority their rights? On the contrary, I'd think that it does not serve the common good to deny homosexuals their rights, because for one thing, by doing so, we are ensuring that the homosexuals wanting equal rights, end up in court in their bid to gain these rights, costing the taxpayers millions of dollars every year.

The job of the homosexual therefore is to try and win over the votes of the heterosexual community. How will you do this? This is the real question on the table? It is not about abuse of power.
Why should a human being be forced to try to win over the majority to be allowed the same rights as their straight brothers and sisters? Rights that they should have because of the fact that they are human beings.

Doesn't society have a right to try and protect the family in the name of the father?
I think I'm going to puke. So if one day your child told you that they were homosexual, you'd have them arrested for putting your family in danger, because 'you da man'? What kind of society do you advocate whereby a father's happiness is put above all others, even that of their homosexual child. One would think that a father would want their child to be happy in their lives, be they gay or straight. One would think that a father, any parent for that matter, would want their child to have the same rights as every other free human being. But what am I saying. You were the one to state that your child becomes your enemy when they disobey you or misbehave...
 
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