The Scientific Proof That God Exists!!
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Counterbalance
Registered Senior Member
As for me, zion, it's back to the stardust from whence I came...eventually. I'll have no need of a funeral. That's up to any of my friends or relatives who care to go through the motions.
~~~
Counterbalance
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Counterbalance
You are never going to see gravity. It is not a man holding the world on his shoulders. You can not be introduced to any such manly being that you can shake hands with. Gravity can hold you upon the earth from below....it can pull the entire ocean horizontally from above. It is a power, an energy. It follows some basic premises and rules and it DOES NOT change. I accept that gravity exists not because I can see it, hear it, feel it by touch, or define its form in human terms.
Much is the same with the Power we know as God. He follows some basic premises, He DOES NOT change. He is not a man who I can walk up to and shake hands. But just like gravity, I can see the resulting actions of His existance.
My question is...if the Power of God was discovered by scientists instead of a regular old Joe...would everyone be so hard up on "seeing" to believe? But then again...Einstien was a believer wasn't he? Of course he was some nut case who couldn't tie his own shoes, so why would we believe anything he said? *wink*
Much is the same with the Power we know as God. He follows some basic premises, He DOES NOT change. He is not a man who I can walk up to and shake hands. But just like gravity, I can see the resulting actions of His existance.
My question is...if the Power of God was discovered by scientists instead of a regular old Joe...would everyone be so hard up on "seeing" to believe? But then again...Einstien was a believer wasn't he? Of course he was some nut case who couldn't tie his own shoes, so why would we believe anything he said? *wink*
Counterbalance
Registered Senior Member
This is your interpretation, which you are free to embrace.
Anything science claims to have discovered and claims to be true must be supported by credible evidence that meets the approval of anyone else science wishes to convince. Science can do little about those who cannot see any value in the methods used to explain the truth of their discoveries. At least Science admits that it is seeking and does not have all the answers.
Einstein was a human being. He was right about some things, and wrong about others. A truth he admitted to himself. Rational men will take any of Einstein's claims and deal with them in a rational manner. And such an approach, I think, is one that Einstein would have approved of as well.
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By what concrete proof do we know gravity exists? Can we see it? Can I hear it speak? Does it have a physical being that I can comprehend?
Why then must God be acceptable only under such impossible terms and conditions?
I as a Christian also admit I do not have all the answers...how am I different?
Why am I to accept gravity only under the pretense that its results have been tested and tried and found to never fail or change and yet you can not accept the same proof concerning the Power of God?
I accept science with out such ludicrouse demands as let me see, touch, taste or you are just deluded. Why should the Power of life be held to such unreasonable standards?
Are you not being just as narrow minded, and unreasonable as you claim to abhore in most Christians?
Why then must God be acceptable only under such impossible terms and conditions?
I as a Christian also admit I do not have all the answers...how am I different?
Why am I to accept gravity only under the pretense that its results have been tested and tried and found to never fail or change and yet you can not accept the same proof concerning the Power of God?
I accept science with out such ludicrouse demands as let me see, touch, taste or you are just deluded. Why should the Power of life be held to such unreasonable standards?
Are you not being just as narrow minded, and unreasonable as you claim to abhore in most Christians?
You can feel it. One of its direct side-effects is called weight. You can feel something being heavy vs. light. That's a direct perception of gravity.
What proof? What is this "Power" you keep mentioning?
That's your problem, not science's. Science itself does not accept anything that doesn't satisfy such "ludicrouse" demands.
You mean, biochemistry? It is. Nuclear physics? It is. Quantum chromodynamics? It is. Or are you talking about some other sort of "Power"?
Counterbalance
Registered Senior Member
Taken,
If any of your comments were directed to me, then it might be helpful for you to resist attributing to others thoughts or feelings you cannot be certain they have. I certainly won’t consider you a fool if you choose to give others the benefit of a reasonable doubt.
For instance, I don’t really know what “Power of Life” means to you, and I don’t pretend to know. Further, I don’t particularly care. By saying that I don’t care, I’m not being sarcastic, nor am I trying to hurt you. I am aware that we don‘t all care about the same things in the same way. Just a fact of life. I’m quite laid back about it all.
I have never once claimed to abhor anyone on this site. I don’t abhor people of faith. My position about it all is very much one of ‘live and let live” --which includes others letting me live as I choose. That does not mean, however, that I won’t share my view from time to time --which does differ from your’s and other's. I don’t agree with a great deal of what various “people of faith” claim to be true. The fact that I don’t agree does not make me delusional; it does not mean I’m champing at the bit to argue; it does not mean I feel any kind of negative emotion toward you or anyone.
Really, there are far too many assumptions being made in these so-called ‘discussions’ and/or ‘debates.’ When too many are made, there is very little reason for some of us to contribute. The effort becomes a waste of time.
Frankly, I don’t know of all the ways you may or may not be different. I don’t read all of yours (or anyone else’s) posts here. I could pretend otherwise, I suppose. I could pretend that I knew enough to make all kinds of assumptions about you or others, but I don’t. I prefer to be honest.
Based on what you’ve written here, you sound as though you may have taken my comments as a personal attack, in some way. And that’s your choice. Perhaps I’ve misread you. But for the record, I was responding to your comments in an honest, direct, and non-confrontational way.
When I share any part of my view, I’m not doing so for the purpose of picking a fight or to cause harm. You may take what I write any way you like, but if you want to understand better, then perhaps what I’ve written here will be of some use.
~~~
Counterbalance
Taken,
The only reason you are asking questions is because you have doubts about completely trusting a god.
A true Christian is someone like Sir. Loone, who is completely bereft of any ability to reason and depends exclusively on the bible and his irrational beliefs. He no longer asks questions and looks to science to provide support for his god, if science disagrees with his views then he claims that science must be wrong, well actually he twists the conclusions to avoid any paradox, which to his mind would be impossible.
You are nothing like Loone. I have seen in some of your other posts that you have the potential for independent objective and critical thought. You simply have to get past this god idea obstacle that is blocking your progress.
Cris
That can’t be true. You mean ‘you as a person’ do not have all the answers. As a Christian you are bound to accept that God is the creator and he accounts for everything and has all the answers. As a Christian you are expected to put your total trust in God.
The only reason you are asking questions is because you have doubts about completely trusting a god.
A true Christian is someone like Sir. Loone, who is completely bereft of any ability to reason and depends exclusively on the bible and his irrational beliefs. He no longer asks questions and looks to science to provide support for his god, if science disagrees with his views then he claims that science must be wrong, well actually he twists the conclusions to avoid any paradox, which to his mind would be impossible.
You are nothing like Loone. I have seen in some of your other posts that you have the potential for independent objective and critical thought. You simply have to get past this god idea obstacle that is blocking your progress.
Cris
Re: Re: Bambi...
Counter balance I did not view you as attacking me...nor was I you. I was trying to make a point in bluntness...I am usually not the attacking sort. 
(ask anyone but Tony) LOL
The point is that all believers can not be dealt with on the basis of some irrational belief in a god like form of a man who waves a magic wand. The Bible does not describe El as such a creature. Nor does it teach all these ridiculouse "Do" or "Dont"...live or burn in hell. It goes far deaper in to the ability and potential and origins of life. It is taken out of context and often far too litterally and the deeper more valuable truths are completely over looked. It is regarded in distaste due to inability to dig a little deeper and see what is right in front of our faces.
There is something far larger here than you or I and our minute amount of time in this air space. A lot of really small pieces in a vast puzzle of life.
An ultimate truth shared by many Christians, Pagans, Scientists and even Aethiests...We are far more than the sum of our parts.
This Life we do not understand is a remarkable wonderouse thing and we are on a journey to something just beyond our minds reach...striving for the next level, something better, something we long for and are driven to reach yet we walk in the face of darkness getting there. We as a whole are searchers...we explore and conquer and grasp at what we do not know. We are driven to find it, we may not know what we will find but we are certain "it is out there". We need to understand and in doing so, we better ourselves and are relentless in our desire to obtain IT.
Einstein was right...these denominated organized, narrow minded religouse doctrines were stumbling blocks...not truth seeking plans. He was searching for something FAR larger than the man behind the curtain. He was in fact searching for the unsearchable, reaching for the unimaginable...and full well expecting to be amazed at every turn. He had a far better grasp of what El was...or more correctly what El WASN'T!
(ask anyone but Tony) LOLThe point is that all believers can not be dealt with on the basis of some irrational belief in a god like form of a man who waves a magic wand. The Bible does not describe El as such a creature. Nor does it teach all these ridiculouse "Do" or "Dont"...live or burn in hell. It goes far deaper in to the ability and potential and origins of life. It is taken out of context and often far too litterally and the deeper more valuable truths are completely over looked. It is regarded in distaste due to inability to dig a little deeper and see what is right in front of our faces.
There is something far larger here than you or I and our minute amount of time in this air space. A lot of really small pieces in a vast puzzle of life.
An ultimate truth shared by many Christians, Pagans, Scientists and even Aethiests...We are far more than the sum of our parts.
This Life we do not understand is a remarkable wonderouse thing and we are on a journey to something just beyond our minds reach...striving for the next level, something better, something we long for and are driven to reach yet we walk in the face of darkness getting there. We as a whole are searchers...we explore and conquer and grasp at what we do not know. We are driven to find it, we may not know what we will find but we are certain "it is out there". We need to understand and in doing so, we better ourselves and are relentless in our desire to obtain IT.
Einstein was right...these denominated organized, narrow minded religouse doctrines were stumbling blocks...not truth seeking plans. He was searching for something FAR larger than the man behind the curtain. He was in fact searching for the unsearchable, reaching for the unimaginable...and full well expecting to be amazed at every turn. He had a far better grasp of what El was...or more correctly what El WASN'T!
Counterbalance
Registered Senior Member
Thanks for the response, Taken. Always good in my view to achieve a better understanding whenever possible.
Taken, believe it or not... I know what you’re talking about. Without even knowing much about your specific journey(s), I can comprehend at least some of the difference you speak of. I know of the “depth” that can be found, and of the “truths.” I know what it is to hunger for truth and understanding, and I know what it is to dig deep. Very deep. I also know what it’s like to believe one has found it. You don’t have to take my word for it, but I’ll tell you this anyway in hopes of helping you to see that some of us do understand where some of the faithful are coming from. We know something about the ‘place’ (heart or mind space) of where you are--or even where you hope to go.
Yes, there are too many people on both sides of the argument too willing to take things too literally. To make mountains out of molehills. To waste time and to wield damage any way they can. To trample all over the simplest truths for the sake of a momentary ego boost. An imagined point scored. This is a symptom, I think, of conflicting desires in a given individual. Another debate for another thread, perhaps.
As it happens, I agree with you. What that something is, however, I don’t try to define in supernatural terms. As I’ve written elsewhere, I have no problem with the possibility that some kind of “higher power” (describe it anyway you like) might have been in play all along. But for now, I don’t actually know that this is the case. I don't believe what I don't know to be true. This is my choice, and my call.
Once upon a time I thought similarly to what you’ve described, but ... There are “unknowns” about our lives, our universe, our existence for which we, any of us, simply don’t have explanations. Not all of them. Or not enough rational explanation to satisfy enough of everyone to a necessary and lasting degree. In such cases, and like Einstein, I am comfortable with the mysteries yet to be revealed. And which may never be revealed. I don’t need to know all the answers, (or to make them up), and prefer that the answers I do get be as near the truth as possible. To seek for truth is a good thing, imo, but I’ve also learned the value of fact-based truth over faith-conjured truth. There is a difference. Gravity is gravity, on that most will agree. To say that God is gravity, or the cause-and-effect, or the collective soul, the great consciousness, the great I AM, the incomprehensible something ... well, we still have nothing but faith-supported theories and interpretations for such claims. We know why the apple crashes earthward when it falls from the tree. A force is in effect and Man has named it “Gravity.“ We have no clear reason to go on and say that a god is behind this force. If some choose to embrace such ideas as that, I’m not going to stand in their way. I know how powerful “individual experiences” can be. What is real to you, IS real to you... at least for now. I also believe we each have our own journey to make in our lives, and that as I should respect other’s choices, so should they respect mine.
Yes, in many respects we are more than the sum of our parts, but I think such a statement is wide open for interpretation. Poetically, philosophically, physically, even a psychologically “true“ statement... and yet too many will explain that sort of “truth” differently, just as many interpret the world’s “holy books” in countless and conflicting ways. There are far fewer ways to explain gravity and it’s effects on this planet, I think.
But you’ve written more, so I’ll pause for now...
I think where some of us would differ with you here, Taken, is that some of us do know what we’re doing--at least enough to live satisfying lives in the here-n-now. We have clear ideas and goals, or have clear consciences when we choose to pause and re-consider the directions we’ll take with our lives. Somewhat like Einstein... we are content. We are open to new ideas... to learning and growing... we are not afraid to live the life available to us now... some of us actively seek for specific knowledge, and rejoice when we stumble onto the unexpected... but some of us feel no need to search for a “holy grail” of an afterlife, or even for a present life, too much of which is credited to the power of prayer, or spent in faith-driven quests for... ? Some of us have realized that too much is lost by an individual once such quests are undertaken. This seems to be a real sticking point for many of the faithful. They can’t/won’t see or admit to how much is sacrificed for the chance of gaining “something” that just might not “exist” ...exist right now, or in the forever-after.
I know of someone here in my hometown who actually spent some time with Einstein; worked with him for a little while. He paints an interesting portrait of the man, though this fellow is elderly and not one to gossip overmuch.
And like many others, I’ve read about Einstein and am grateful for all that he contributed to Mankind. I don’t actually think I understand him, (Einstein), or therefore that I know him, but if this is your view of how Einstein thought or felt, I’m content to let you see him as you like.I do appreciate that you seem to be considerably more open-minded than many we’ve both encountered here (from both camps) and appreciate the opportunity for an exchange. We may disagree on some of the fundamentals, but your willingness to communicate speaks volumes.
~~~
Happy questing...
Counterbalance
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Answer to Bambi...
Bambi,
I gave enough reasons to the evidence. If you don't accept them, that's your problem. The Bible says:
Proverbs 18:15
"15 The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them."
Isn't it wise? The Bible is full of this kind of thing. And anyone can disagree that the stated above is true. So learn with the Bible and be opened to new ideas!!
Blessings,
Nelson
Bambi,
I gave enough reasons to the evidence. If you don't accept them, that's your problem. The Bible says:
Proverbs 18:15
"15 The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them."
Isn't it wise? The Bible is full of this kind of thing. And anyone can disagree that the stated above is true. So learn with the Bible and be opened to new ideas!!
Blessings,
Nelson
Re: Re: Re: Bambi...
Jan,
You have a lot more difficulty detecting sarcasm than you seem to credit yourself for.
Prove it.
Me, for one.
If you really believed that God existed, you wouldn't waste your time arguing the subject matter. What a ridiculous nonsequitur!
Besides, to deny something it must first be proposed. Thereby, the "original sin" is yours. You keep proposing the existence of God. I merely dismiss your proposal as ridiculous.
Prove it.
You must have real problems with archaeology and modern dating. On the other hand, with respect to all of your claims above, "Prove it".
Already done. See this post for the start of it and read forward through my posts on that thread.
Lack of belief and denial are two very different things.
The part you're missing is how ridiculous all the religions look from that perspective. You have no idea how comical you are.
Well indeed, what has anyting to do with believing in God. You've got a point there. The belief is utterly baseless, meaningless and pointeless.
Jan,
You have a lot more difficulty detecting sarcasm than you seem to credit yourself for.
Prove it.
Me, for one.
If you really believed that God existed, you wouldn't waste your time arguing the subject matter. What a ridiculous nonsequitur!
Besides, to deny something it must first be proposed. Thereby, the "original sin" is yours. You keep proposing the existence of God. I merely dismiss your proposal as ridiculous.
Prove it.
You must have real problems with archaeology and modern dating. On the other hand, with respect to all of your claims above, "Prove it".
Already done. See this post for the start of it and read forward through my posts on that thread.
Lack of belief and denial are two very different things.
The part you're missing is how ridiculous all the religions look from that perspective. You have no idea how comical you are.
Well indeed, what has anyting to do with believing in God. You've got a point there. The belief is utterly baseless, meaningless and pointeless.
Tee hee
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
On second thought, I suppose you're right. The fact that when you bounce a photon off an electron, the electron gets perturbed -- that's definitely evidence of your god. Sorry for being so dense and not getting it sooner.
Puh -- le -- ase
And if you accept them, that's your problem. Learn with the Bible and be opened to new ideas!! Or are you closed to the idea that your god doesn't exist? Why, you wouldn't be going against your own admonishments, would you? Or wouldn't you? Please help me figure this out, because I'm very confused right now. :bugeye:
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
On second thought, I suppose you're right. The fact that when you bounce a photon off an electron, the electron gets perturbed -- that's definitely evidence of your god. Sorry for being so dense and not getting it sooner.
Puh -- le -- ase
And if you accept them, that's your problem. Learn with the Bible and be opened to new ideas!! Or are you closed to the idea that your god doesn't exist? Why, you wouldn't be going against your own admonishments, would you? Or wouldn't you? Please help me figure this out, because I'm very confused right now. :bugeye:
What the Bible teaches...
Bambi,
I like the ideas passed in the Bible. The Bible teaches principles of living such as Honesty, Compassion, Simplicity, Love...
But Science don't usually do that. Phylosophy does a little bit... it's why I like it... but it's not enough.
Read the Bible... get these ideas... if you don't agree with them you don't need to accept.
But you can't say that the Bible does not teach us how to live, because the basis of the Bible are those principles, which can make a peaceful world.
About God... if the principles are so correct, I don't think that whoever wrote the Bible didn't know what he was talking about. I don't think that someone can put so brilliant principles and a lie together...
God exixts... and as you said:
Well, you accept the evidence... So, along with the principles, is pretty acceptable the possibility of God's existance.
What people (mostly scientists) have difficulty to accept is the power of God. Most scientists are so proud of themselves that they don't accept the existence of a so powerfull entity. And this is also written in the Bible...
Blessings,
Nelson
Bambi,
I like the ideas passed in the Bible. The Bible teaches principles of living such as Honesty, Compassion, Simplicity, Love...
But Science don't usually do that. Phylosophy does a little bit... it's why I like it... but it's not enough.
Read the Bible... get these ideas... if you don't agree with them you don't need to accept.
But you can't say that the Bible does not teach us how to live, because the basis of the Bible are those principles, which can make a peaceful world.
About God... if the principles are so correct, I don't think that whoever wrote the Bible didn't know what he was talking about. I don't think that someone can put so brilliant principles and a lie together...
God exixts... and as you said:
Well, you accept the evidence... So, along with the principles, is pretty acceptable the possibility of God's existance.
What people (mostly scientists) have difficulty to accept is the power of God. Most scientists are so proud of themselves that they don't accept the existence of a so powerfull entity. And this is also written in the Bible...
Blessings,
Nelson
Truthseeker,
Does morality require a god - http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_17_3.html
Here is a good guide for parents and teachers on teaching ethics and morality - http://www.gobob.org/teaching-ethics.htm
But if you are looking for a sound objective philosophy to help guide you in life then try this link - http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/declaration.html
The bible doesn’t offer anything of value that you can’t find elsewhere that is also more productive and useful.
Helpfully.
Cris
Kind of, but the real intent of the bible is not for the benefit of people but for the glory of a god. The 10 commandments for example are not expressed in a way that shows benefits for people but are authoritarian commands to be obeyed or be punished. These are not good guidelines for people. One shouldn’t behave in a partcilular way because of fear of punishment.
The purposes of science and philosophy are not about providing moral or ethical guidance, and so of course you will not find those values there. Yo u are looking in the wrong place.
Anything worthwhile for human morality in the bible can be more appropriately found elsewhere without any of the burdensome rituals required for worshipping mythical super beings, and without the threat and terror of punishments.
Does morality require a god - http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_17_3.html
Here is a good guide for parents and teachers on teaching ethics and morality - http://www.gobob.org/teaching-ethics.htm
But if you are looking for a sound objective philosophy to help guide you in life then try this link - http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/declaration.html
The bible doesn’t offer anything of value that you can’t find elsewhere that is also more productive and useful.
Pride isn’t the issue, it is evidence. And scientists are paramount here because their disciplines require them to think clearly. And Christianity doesn’t want people to think because that would undermine their hold on power, just like any past oppressive regime. And the bible entries you reference are the propaganda you’d expect from such a misguided antiquated relic.
Helpfully.
Cris
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