The argument of a “priory cause” relating to the premise I put forward; “something cannot come from nothing if the existent is temporal or finite”... that’s what we were arguing about remember? But you diverged and resorted to making useless rhetorical comments, due to your inability to respond in like. This to me implied that you simply lost the “argument”!
Go back and read post #370 of this thread. I have no intention to repeat what I already said on this subject. At least not in the same thread. I can make one addition though: Your sentence of "something cannot come from nothing if the existent is temporal or finite" has an unnecessary part, which is "if the existent is temporal or finite". You don't need that, nobody needs it. Just plain "something cannot come from nothing" is enough and clear. There is no "if"s. Your "if" is intentionally there to spare a space for your God. In reality, nothing has an exeption to the rule: "Nothing can come from nothing". "Nothingness" exist only in human mind. It's not a physical thing, it has no place in this universe. Humans think about it, just as they can think about infinity, eternity, God, Superman, or any other non-existing concepts. It's human ability to develop concepts. That doesn't mean that they exist.
No, my intention wasn’t to have an “argument” at all. It was to share ideas and to put forward philosophical premises and syllogisms, in order to try and solve “the age old problem”.
You have no intention other than to defend your fantasy. You already shared your idea of God. I asked "where is your God?", you implied that it's everywhere. I didn't buy it. It's simple as that. Forget about "philosophical... age of problems" shit. I focus on today, and your idea is an obstacle in front of human species.
I sure am. Wouldn’t you be one of those “demons” in this case? Seems very real to me!
Your mind works with angel and demons, that's why you have to decode other ideas according to the language of your software, otherwise you don't understand them. You are demonizing me as a person in order to cope with what I am saying. You can not analyse my words without naming the source of it. You see, you do not know me personally, you are seeing my ideas in written format.
Gee... for the largest growing religion in the world, it certainly doesn’t seem like it’s dying at all. Instead, it’s living stronger than ever before.
It's growing into an abyss. It's growing into something more complex and bigger than it can comprehend which is next generation of human technologies and social interactions. It will not be able to isolate it's societies as it used to do before. Have a look at your "growing numbers"; are they practicing and following the essence of your belief, or their numbers are related with phenomenon of "population increase in underdeveloped countries". I mean is that "growing numbers" are due to the reason of mass convertions to religion(s); or is it because of growing number of population in religiously manipulated societies.
Yes I sure am. I’m trying to understand “how” my fellow Human can be so vicious against each other’s belief and faith and then act like they’re the logical thinking ones without showing ANY logic at all. That’s why I have certain “assumptions” about atheists and you are too frequently proving those assumptions correct so far. I put it down to “Human conditions” in the end and not try to attribute it to their beliefs and faiths like you do.
You are not. You are trying to propagandate your religion to yourself as much as others. And being vicious against belief is what modern societies have been doing for some time. You can not find better ways without testing belief systems. Useless belief systems, such as "women are inferior than men", or a group of people are "racially superior to others" were all "belief" systems once. They needed to be attacked to be more easily demolished in front of human species. And your religion do not deserve any exception. Yours is as bad as slavery or racism, not less.
See, this just goes to show, after “arguing” with me for this long, that you haven’t the slightest idea what I believe and what I have said. I keep telling you that “something cannot come from nothing”, yet here you are stating that I believe the opposite?
So you DO hate the word “creation” after all? It’s just as I thought.
No you don't say "something cannot come from nothing". You are trying to push your God under this sentence. All you are saying is essentially "everything comes from Allah". "Allah made everything out of nothing". When I asked you where is your Allah, you are saying that you are "feeling" it. But you are trying to use "feeling" verb as if you were feeling hot or cold. No you are not feeling; you are imagining.
Want to open a new chapter? Are you ready for one?
I opened a new chapter which is a thead called "How do organised religions differ from slavery or racism"; you can find it if you search...
This is your question:
What is “scientific jargon” baftan?
And this is your answer from your very own post:
[/I] indicating that the phenomenon “Tariq” is a bright knocking star (very similar to a pulsar – or neutron star) that pierces a hole in the darkness - thaqib - (collapses into a black hole), and moves on (eventually the BH collapses and all the radiation has gone on to form other existents).
Just to expand further on Neutron Stars (Pulsars);
Most neutron stars discovered today are in the form of radio pulsars (after going supernova). They are called radio pulsars because they emit radio waves. We can simply connect a radio telescope to a loud speaker and hear a pulsar. Pulsars sound like someone persistently knocking.
Here is the modern islamist trick: Put some parantesis inside a Qur'anic verses to remind the reader what it meant. Because readers are stupid, they can understand them verses literally. It's in almost all Qur'anic verses around the world now. It's impossible to find a Qur'an now without somebody put some explanation in between Allah's word. And muslims duty is to inject scientific jargon (see Qur'ans with galaxy, DNA and atoms are included inside of them). According to your religion I am going to burn in the lowest level of hell "eternally of course" since I reject your God. Yet again according to your religion, those who make additions to Allah's words will suffer right above me for long time, but not eternally, since Allah will eventually take you into the heaven. What a great justice for you.
Ummm... you didn’t read that verse properly.
Let me elaborate;
Let’s entertain this interpretation
Hadiths were created that way: To support Qur'an when it is required. They were written by people who listened to Mohammed when he was alive and this information was brought to next generation through reliable muslims; is that so? Yes, these lot deserve to burn with me in the hell.
Riiight! I think you need to settle down and stop accusing people who understand better than you. And who was it that was “daring” to omit the word tariq and assume that thaqib was the only word used in those 3 verses? You! And who was it that “created” a false and misleading interpretation on a verse by omitting facts? You!
Who gives a shit about the words used in your verses? You can multiply and bend the words as much as you like. If anyone goes deep in words in Qur'an will definetely find truth and Allah, aren't they? No, they will find seventh century Arabic poem, no useful information for anyone. Everybody is free to try. (Of course they should omit the explanatory paranthesis or deepnotes written by modern Qur'an explanators. I thought somewhere in the Qur'an it was stated that "my words are open and clear". You are the master of verses, find me where it is.)
And how exactly do you think it began baftan? You think that after a billion years of dumb, mute, blind and senseless atoms crashing into each other did that? Or even add all other 4 forces to your superstitions and wait another trillion years and let’s see if a car can exist that just drives off all by itself, goes to the petrol station, absorbing all its oil and gas, and then goes off and picks up the kids, then goes straight back home and tucks the kids in bed and back to the garage... ALL without any programming or instructions baftan. Insane hey? That’s the kind of superstition YOU believe in.
That's a kind of superstition that
you think I believe in. I repeat: I don't believe in this, this is nothing to do with belief.
Did you also think that the very first moments of an object to come to life took a billion years before it had senses and consciousness?
There is no such a moment.
Didn’t you think for a minute that there may have been a moment when there was no life, like before that billion years?
You mean existence without life. It still exist: minerals and rocks do not have life, you don't need to go back to billions of years, your computer is not alive either. What you call life, awareness have also evolved. Life without brain or eye organ do not have similar type of "awareness" as you would admit. Otherwise we couldn't mention difference between you and a handfull of grass or bacteria. You share certain types of awareness with other great apes such chimpanzees or gorillas, as just as any other human beings. Yet luckily, other species of great apes do not fantasise Gods and heavens.
You know that life didn’t take a billion years to evolve, only for one moment when this first being became “aware”! So yes, even if it did take the “conditions” to make life sustainable a billion or so years, THAT one single first being that felt or sensed its own self and surroundings happened in that one split second, that sudden moment. In other words...“all of a sudden”. Not a billion years!
This is your fantasy; DNA says otherwise.
But let me at least give you some evidences of ‘things appearing suddenly’ shall I? Since anyone reading this would know you can’t give evidences or any logical premises, or syllogisms to save your life!
Here’s a site that shows Fossil Records that explains how many species appear non-transitionally and inconsistent with gradulaism(what’s this?... I’m using evolutionary sites to prove my point? How can this be?). These are some of the topics discussed and cited from Harvard University textbooks by the way. Enjoy!
Stephen J. Gould (The scientist you quoted) had "created" controversies with his writing style, yet he was an evolutionary biologist and he never refused what Darwin said on the origin of species. He never claimed that species emerged "out of nowhere", this is a creationist discourse mostly derived from his definitions on fossil record classifications. He tried to mention the dramatic formations of natural selections. He didn't find any species which didn't fit entire evolution steps of life on this planet. You and other creationists will try to highlight these sort of sentences, but it will not make any contribution to the discipline of evolutionary biology.
You can find more detailed information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould#Controversies
Most species appear all at once in the fossil record fully formed
"Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record"
Evolutionary novelty "usually shows up with a bang"
The decisive steps are abrupt, without transition
"All but one* of the phyla in the fossil record appeared within the first 5 million to 10 million years"
The sudden appearance of the flowering plants (angiosperms) was to Darwin "an abominable mystery"
Oh the irony! And the audaciousness!
Yep! I agree... it sure is “unbelievable” hey?
Believable and unbelievable are your methods to understand reality. Science finds certain fossils and they can not pinpoint the evolutionary steps from earlier species at first glance. Then they come up with an idea until they find a new fossil evidence. This is a rule of thumb: abrupt changes in species coincides with abrubt changes in environment. This is sensible, because DNA do not need to change itself so abrubtly if there wasn't any extreme external effects from outside world. You see, it's always physical, nothing divine.
Human evolution (yes I did say “evolution”)
What do you want, a medal? You don't get it, because you continue with this:
from the first creation of Adem (pbuh) couldn’t comprehend the technology from today for example.
Who is Adem? Who says that he was created? You started (never finished actually) to introduce new characters to your scenario. Where is your evidence other than mental world of your fairy tale? What do you mean God's creation was not designed to comprehend today's technology? Did God know about today's technology? How can you expect us to believe in such a crazy story?
And if we were to receive information/technology from say a billion years in the future of Human existence
I can assure you they will not be human existence in a billion year time. This is not allowed by physical conditions. Your DNA differs 2 percent from a chimpanzee DNA, and it took 5 million years for that. Try to grasp time, natural selection, environmental changes and their effects. Otherwise you will always make false predictions.
do you really think we could possibly grasp the concepts, language, axioms, philosophy, maths, science and all that would come with a billion year advanced information?
And this proves what, evolution or creation (such a disgusting word).
It would be like trying to tell your cat to understand black holes, let alone speaking English. So yes, it most certainly needs to be given to us gradually and not “all of a sudden”. Man have you got your mind twisted around or what?
Just read your previous paragraph and tell me the meaning of "twist".
What’s so illogical about that? It’s not rocket science! Do you have a problem with the word “sudden” now as well? What crap are you reading this from dude?
Of course I have a problem with the word "sudden". It sits next to "creation".
If it puts you to sleep, then maybe it would be a lullaby, but it’s not. It’s a book of guidance, signs and an inspiration for many people on this Earth already. Including renowned scientists.
Give me some names, so we can check out their scientific credibility, as well as the context. Otherwise "renowned scientist" sounds similar to "three wise men".
Do you believe in love? Do you believe in existentialism and being able to reconcile your love for your family, then measuring it to prove it? How can you? But it’s there with all its glory. Much like God to us theist’s... it is a matter of looking around and through introspection and through experiences do we understand a higher power to all this. And we can “feel” His presence. I know you wouldn’t believe me but it’s perfect!
This is the first sentence in wikipedia under the entry called "love":
Love is any of a number of emotions and experiences related to a sense of strong affection[1] and attachment.
The quality, object, level of love differs from person to person, species to species. Yet when you put them under the brain scanner, you can observe which part of their brain cells are activated. And you can repeat the experiment over and over again. Now you have a measurable phenomenon. You can also find special brain cells in the brains of people who believe in Gods. Popular jargon describes it "God" cell. Yet it doesn't prove the existence of God, it only proves that there are certain members of our species who keep their minds busy with fantasies.
Looking at it another way; If Allah were indeed to show Himself to you all, with all His Omnipotence, Omniscience and every other attribute He possesses, you would probably believe in His existence wouldn’t you?
Not necessarily, I could be seeing hallucinations; I must be measuring it. Something other than me (some device, some tangible and observable effect should be produced by what I saw. Then, still I wouldn't believe it, I could start to accept it as an existing phenomenon in this universe. I don't believe in wind or electricity, I just accept them due to their imposing evidence of existence.
But it will never happen, you and I both know that for different reasons. It will not happen, not because your God doesn't want to show itself due to its project on humans, just because it can not, just because there is no such a thing called God, how many times I should repeat it until you come up with a tangible evidence, or hint of evidence, or an effect, a reason, anything. Or it should at least fit somewhere within the mechanisms of nature. Let's see how do you explain why God doesn't "show up":
But then another dilemma arises. Then why would we all need to live in this universe knowing the truth? All of us, that is? What would be the point of everyone knowing and then doing the right thing (without committing a sin), when He could skip all that and just put us all in Paradise already? Think about it very hard because it involves not only tests and trials here on Earth, but also of a little thing called “free will”. But that’s a different topic that requires deep thinking.
I don't know how do you explain this story in your thinking system; but i find it quite sadistic and moreover a sick plan. Only an agricultural society would come up with such an idea that life is a test prepared by God -whatever it is-. Plus, "free will" is not a "little thing". Don't mention the topics if you are not going to elaborate. Or elaborate it, and let's see what your brain produces about the concept of "free will".
Also as an example, would you like it if everyone were able to become doctors, lawyers and pilots, all without going through vigorous testing first, to see if they have what it takes and are worthy of such distinctions and titles? Of course not! So why would God allow us to go to Heaven without being tested first? Sort of beats the purpose don’t you think?
What heaven, do you seriously believe that your soul (?) will live in an eternal life? On what basis? Where is the evidence?
I’m sorry but, were you not aware that people are believing in God/Allah more so than not, even in “this technology infested new dynamic generation of human kind”? I don’t think many who think it through would believe that; dumb, mute, blind and unconscious particles smashing into each other over kazillions of years would be able assemble or cause anything without instructions or programming. That’s if they reallllly thought about it. But each to their own hey?
Once people used to believe other things, they were all over the world, now they and their beliefs are part of history. And if you keep mentioning numbers, I would remind you that you have no idea how many people are believing in what. You just calculate the population growth in countries where official religion of state, or widespread belief of majority is branded as this or that religion (catholic, islam, christian). From now on, they are not true followers of any religion, they are consuming historic brands, they are not living according to their forced identities, they live according to their actual conditions, the realities of their era. How can you know how many people are not believing in any God? I can not, yet I don't care. I am dealing with ideas, not numbers. Because sizes of population didn't have immense effects in human development; but some ideas manipulated the masses, or masses gathered around some ideas. Just as once your religion had been a driving force in its region. The driving force of next generations, however, will be more technologic, information and knowledge based than previous generations, including ourselves. Anybody's claim will easily be checked on internet type common knowledge pools. Trends, directions, policies will all be subject to scrutiny. There is no place for any mumbo jumbo in their paths. We are in the middle of this transformation, that's a "historic role" for this generation if you like.
Then why would you imply that the “Agricultural era” was the reason for people believing in a God somehow?
Wrong, agricultural era created sophisticated God stories for more sophisticated regimes of agricultural era. God(s) were created before that in hunter gatherers, yet there were more naturally integrated imagination characters. You can have a look at various belief system in hanter-gatherers so that you can see the difference between their belief system and the god(s) systems of agricultural societies of last 10000 years.
What were you implying? It happened back then and it’s still happening now more so, even in this “technology infested new dynamic generation of human kind”.
"History always repeats itself twice: first time as tragedy, second time as farce." - Karl Marx
No no... you agreed and I can prove it if you like step by step mister?
Try doing it, but as far as I can see up until now, you will not amaze me...
Good to see you get your hateful intentions out for all to see.
You see, I play to your mental game. Because even if I talk about DNA, planets, or rocks, you will never be able to stick to the topic unless you define a place for me in your mind. I must be devil, demon, atheist or something your mental world can relate. Otherwise your brain can not generate any meaning. Yes, yes, I have "hateful intentions", so what?
Does it help gravity? If I became an angel, would it change gravity? No, neither situation makes difference in real world. My costume was already in the wardrobe of your imagination world. I can't help it, so I go along with it.
Great to know now. So this is what atheism is about is it? So you’re saying people should be weary of you a lot more now... knowing there are evil people like you out there who try to “poison people”, as you have clearly admitted?
Check out all entries that I put to this conversation; not only that, check out all threads that I wrote sentences in this forum. Moreover, you are free to bring any sentence you can find out on internet with name "baftan": You will never find a single claim that I stated "I am an atheist". You can not. I share ideas with atheist that I do not believe in your God. That's true. But atheism is not my identity. I do not define myself as an atheist. I define myself as an "ape", and I have a DNA evidence for that. You define me as an atheist, because you cannot read what I write without classifying me with this title.
Here the news: I don't give a shit about how you define me. Also, I don't have a problem with admitting that I am poisoning people if it's going to fit my visual or characteristic appearence in your psyche. If anybody reading my writings and realising that I am actually poisoning them, they can always go and Fock themselves. If any member of my species are listening to individual apes like me, or great thinkers like you, instead of using accumulated knowledge of humanity, evidence of science, or realities of their planet, so they are stupid enough to be deceived, to be poisoned and they also deserve to practice any sort of trouble they are experiencing. Fock them too.
And you will never succeed with your venomous poisoning of people while my ummah is around matey. We’ll fight you on all fronts and you will lose. That’s a promise!
I am an ape, not a snake. Your ummah can not solve any of their actual problems, so they will probably hunt their demons instead. As long as they are your ummah, and you are part of it, you will do that. Good luck to you.
Go ahead... and I will verbally defend and dish it out more than you could possibly handle. I’m more spirited and resilient than you.
It's obvious that you are sprited. Yet "resilient" part of you is going to harm you, not me or anybody else.
That’s a BIG problem you have then. Go see a psychologist or something before you go insane man. That’s not healthy at all! For anyone! And believe me... you’re not convincing anyone at the moment.
I told you, if anybody listens to me or to you instead of using their own judgement on things can go and Fock themselves, because they would prove that they are useless anyway.
Naaaa... I don’t think you showed anything other than the fact that you’re almost clinically insane. Instead, I think it is I that was able to infuriate you to such an extent as to expose you for the fraud that you are.
How can I be a fraud, I admitted already that my intention is to poison other people's minds. Open cards, no hidden fraud.
Going by your logic, theories, science, philosophy, the way you masquerade as some sort of sage for atheist’s and the lack thereof all these, would suggest to me that you are not a worthy adversary. I just wouldn’t waste my time with you anymore now.
The rest of your drivvle is not even worth responding to now. Another one bites the dust!
Enjoy your life-journey baftan and good luck... you’re sure gonna need it kid!
And you can go and Fock yourself too... You pathetic creationist creature.
