Oh... yes Char... he is VERY anti-Islamic and quite obviously... one "very confused" person.
The Qur'an
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Bells
Staff member
I don't know. It is but one theory. I rather weigh the actual evidence that make up the theories.Bizza said:
How do you know that it was God who did it? What evidence to do you have aside from blind faith?
So your logical solution is to believe in a spiritual creator or 'big man in the sky' who made it all?
How is that logical exactly?
Theists have the need to believe that it didn't just happen as it did out of blind luck. Does it make you feel uncomfortable to believe that your existence arose out of sheer luck and providence?
Look, to be honest, you could believe that it was a giant cow who farted and caused the existence of the universe. It really is no skin off my nose. But trying to pass it off as logic, and demanding that your creation theory be the be all and end all is, well, illogical.
This universe is not wonderful. It is a violent and deadly place. It may be stunning to look at, but it is also deadly.
And that's what science says too... actually... it stays silent on the issue. That's if you are "weighing" the actual evidences.
Evidence? Everything in this universe for starters. From my observations, it seems quite obvious that everything (in this universe at least) comes from something else, or more precisely, something comes from something(s) else. That is, something is always caused because of and from other "things". Atoms smash, collide and decay... and most of the time, they are but one cause for the "creation" of other particles, molecules and bodies to name a few.
If you saw a painting, would you deny some artist created it? No.
If you saw a house, would you deny that some builder created it? No.
If you saw dung on the floor, would you deny that some animal created it? No.
All these are simple "evidences" of creations. So why would I assume otherwise about the universe and existence itself?
If I told you that my car can get out of its garage, drive itself to the gas station and absorb all its oil, petrol etc and repair itself, then go and pick up the croceries from the market and drive back to its garage all by itself without ANY instructions (programming)... would you believe me? Of course not. You would call me insane wouldn't you?
Same reasoning as mentioned above.
Since I don't believe in such obsurd theories, no, I don't feel "uncomfortable" at all! Do you?
If you were paying attention... that's not what I believe in.
It may very well be the be-all and end-all of all logical explanations thus far, according to the "evidences" and knowledge we have so far.
But that's okay... you keep deluding yourself that paintings, houses and buildings appear out of sheer dumb luck too!
You can also believe that dumb, mute, senseless and unconscious particles somehow "knew" how to create eveything all by themselves... due to dumb luck!:bugeye:
Sure it is... and your point being?
Logic doesn't dictate.
Actually what it is, is undefined. We are on the other side of the event horizon.
Actually one of the fundamental observations of physics is the matter/energy is neither created no destroyed. That means the matter/energy which exists has always existed, though not necessarily in this form.
No, the current form of the universe has a finite age which begins when it was ejected from the original black hole, but calling that the beginning is entirely arbitrary, its really just our beginning.
But "ignorance" is apparently bliss for some!
Perhaps you should work on that
No, its just uncaused.
There is no external to the universe. You really need to try to understand what the term means.
The universe is something, matter, energy, fields, etc and nothing space, time.
You should really learn what "atheist" means. It is just some one who isn't fooled by god talk. They don't necessarily know squat about anything else.
Meditate on the meaning of "may."
There are various speculations about multiverses, but there is nothing yet to support that. THere is also speculation that there may be a cycle of big bangs, though that is less in favor at the moment. But you should bear in mind that time goes crazy when you are talking about a universe sized black hole.
Actually the spontaneous appearance of gods makes anything else look entirely plausible. You godders can't swallow what is but magic sky fairies you believe...what idiots.
Even if one were to take Bizza's base argument that a God created the Universe, this doesn't mean the God is still here. Considering that the Universe is observed to be Godless, then if Bizza were being genuine, Bizza would conclude that the God ceases to exist following the universe creation event.
So we are still stuck in a godless universe.
But, that's not REALLY what Bizza wants. Bizza doesn't want to truly discover how the universe started, or what reality really is, what Bizza wants is to believe that there is a God and its a God that just happens to be the one that Bizza worships AND this God gives two farts about Bizza. Oh and as luck has it if Bizza does what Bizza's Imam says to do - then Bizza gets to live in a magical fairy land with pretty girls and never has to face up to reality - death and meaningless.
That's the truth of things. And it's why Bizza goes ape shit on anyone who suggests otherwise.
Death is a scary thing to face up to.
Making one's own meaning in life is a lot of responsibility.
IMO that's perhaps why it's better to keep most people under the spell of theism for the foreseeable future. But we should actively decide just what those theism teach children.
So we are still stuck in a godless universe.
But, that's not REALLY what Bizza wants. Bizza doesn't want to truly discover how the universe started, or what reality really is, what Bizza wants is to believe that there is a God and its a God that just happens to be the one that Bizza worships AND this God gives two farts about Bizza. Oh and as luck has it if Bizza does what Bizza's Imam says to do - then Bizza gets to live in a magical fairy land with pretty girls and never has to face up to reality - death and meaningless.
That's the truth of things. And it's why Bizza goes ape shit on anyone who suggests otherwise.
Death is a scary thing to face up to.
Making one's own meaning in life is a lot of responsibility.
IMO that's perhaps why it's better to keep most people under the spell of theism for the foreseeable future. But we should actively decide just what those theism teach children.
If you didn't know any better, you couldn't deny the earth was flat upon looking out your window.
If you didn't know any better, you couldn't deny that lights speed is instantaneous.
If you didn't know any better, you couldn't deny that what appears designed has evolved to appear designed.
You hold a narrow-minded worldview filled with magic and mystery that defies all logic.
Evidently, that is verboten here.
Nah, its better to have them go apeshit.
Swarm
However, we still come back to the start of the broken record once again.
And now we have people (hard atheists) that believe the universe is eternal in one way or another. That’s to say that they believe... no... Knows that the universe is eternal and infinite, yet they can’t think outside the square and realise from the fact that;
Everything observed so far in the universe (using science) has been measured to be temporal (finite),
Everything that is temporal seems to have a cause,
The Universe is the sum total of all these finite and temporal existents.
The Universe is finite and temporal. Not infinite and eternal at all!
But still... they burry their heads in the sand and block their ears wishing this were not true... wishing that the theists would go away. They put forward many theories to provide relief for them that are grief-stricken by the thought of the God (creationist) theory being a viable solution to the problem and even show allergic reactions when the word “creation” is even mentioned.
However, even the best theories put forward and in the wildest imaginations of science-fiction writers, none have any credibility and defy the laws of physics in some way or another. Sure they all sound viable on paper and plausible to those that are a layman of science, but this will bring the “grief-stricken ones” back into their despair once they find out the startling facts are contrary to their wishes and hopes. They just hope that the only real plausible solution so far (God) would just go away. But it never does!
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Michael
Annnnnnnnnnnd blah blah blaaaaaah... asdhjgausbub cas dhjub j b sajdhcbjkhkjhjc bh hjs dcb hjbs dchbjs dchb bnj bnj AScbb sdjb chb hjkbg hjsd vhbg I’M SOOO CONFUSED! hebd vhj bjsd j asdv kj kj kjz dv defkiaoweiufioawdcioaeiaoias c eurbhvdsv hlallaoieubehrbvfuh ash dhcv jah sdvj sdjv j aasjdvj jbh sdj vjb WHY? WHY? WHY? ajkioaoisdbvfhusedfr vhjs dfjv ahusdyehrv sdj v dvojasdjvkh ajsdv hjasd jv bjzxs dv sdfhv j sdv jbh asdhufvjbashjk dvjh I DON’T UNDERSTAND!!! fdb vgf b djkvasjhkdvb jhas dfv bjs dfv dhhdfb vjskd fv jsdfjv shjkd df vs dfvjh sdfj vsjdkf vhdfghvd jfvd fvj sdfhv sdfjkva jksdh vhjak sdfvjkahs dvf GOOBLEDIGOOOOOK!!!
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Q
The speed of light is NOT instantaneous. LOL. Too hilarious!
For example;
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that it takes the light from the sun 8.3 minutes to reach our eyes. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that it takes the light from the moon 1.3 seconds to reach our eyes. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that light goes around the Earth 7.4 times in one second. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that light can be slowed down (see here). But of course, you know better hey?
Simply amazing!
Bravo! I agree with everything you said there. We’re finally getting somewhere. Great!
However, we still come back to the start of the broken record once again.
I disagree. Please rethink that again. If something is uncaused, then it’s inferred to mean there was no cause for it at all, making it eternal in whatever nature or state of affairs it exists as. If you were trying to say that it has “no known cause”, then it leaves it open to hypothesis, which is what it is at the moment. But you made it concrete and stated a definite semantic suggesting it’s verbatim knowledge, which it’s not.
External? Read my statement again? Did I say external or “eternal”? Who needs to understand what again? LOL!
The former is true. The latter is up for debate and review. Why? Because “space” and “time” are not what ‘makes’ the universe. Reason being, they are the fundamental measuring units created by Humans to ascertain the quanta of the former. They are not some sort of “fabric” either. In physics and metrology for example, units are standards for measurement of physical quantities that need clear definitions to be useful.
Ohhhmmmmm... okay... done!
That’s exactly right. Ohhhhmmm!
Right again! Very telling so far isn’t it? Ohhhhhhm!
Sure it does. And? Ohhhhhhm!
How nice! To quote a favourite movie of mine, Men In Black, where Kay says, “...Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the centre of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat... Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.”
And now we have people (hard atheists) that believe the universe is eternal in one way or another. That’s to say that they believe... no... Knows that the universe is eternal and infinite, yet they can’t think outside the square and realise from the fact that;
Everything observed so far in the universe (using science) has been measured to be temporal (finite),
Everything that is temporal seems to have a cause,
The Universe is the sum total of all these finite and temporal existents.
The Universe is finite and temporal. Not infinite and eternal at all!
But still... they burry their heads in the sand and block their ears wishing this were not true... wishing that the theists would go away. They put forward many theories to provide relief for them that are grief-stricken by the thought of the God (creationist) theory being a viable solution to the problem and even show allergic reactions when the word “creation” is even mentioned.
However, even the best theories put forward and in the wildest imaginations of science-fiction writers, none have any credibility and defy the laws of physics in some way or another. Sure they all sound viable on paper and plausible to those that are a layman of science, but this will bring the “grief-stricken ones” back into their despair once they find out the startling facts are contrary to their wishes and hopes. They just hope that the only real plausible solution so far (God) would just go away. But it never does!
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Michael
This is what I’ve understood from the entirety of all your mindless threads so far;
Annnnnnnnnnnd blah blah blaaaaaah... asdhjgausbub cas dhjub j b sajdhcbjkhkjhjc bh hjs dcb hjbs dchbjs dchb bnj bnj AScbb sdjb chb hjkbg hjsd vhbg I’M SOOO CONFUSED! hebd vhj bjsd j asdv kj kj kjz dv defkiaoweiufioawdcioaeiaoias c eurbhvdsv hlallaoieubehrbvfuh ash dhcv jah sdvj sdjv j aasjdvj jbh sdj vjb WHY? WHY? WHY? ajkioaoisdbvfhusedfr vhjs dfjv ahusdyehrv sdj v dvojasdjvkh ajsdv hjasd jv bjzxs dv sdfhv j sdv jbh asdhufvjbashjk dvjh I DON’T UNDERSTAND!!! fdb vgf b djkvasjhkdvb jhas dfv bjs dfv dhhdfb vjskd fv jsdfjv shjkd df vs dfvjh sdfj vsjdkf vhdfghvd jfvd fvj sdfhv sdfjkva jksdh vhjak sdfvjkahs dvf GOOBLEDIGOOOOOK!!!
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Q
That’s if you believed in such a theory, like say, dumb, mute, senseless and unconscious particles knowing how to cause things to come to life. Oh that’s right! It was dumb luck wasn’t it? You believe in dumb luck... how funny!
LOL! You’re almost as funny as Michael... almost!
The speed of light is NOT instantaneous. LOL. Too hilarious!
For example;
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that it takes the light from the sun 8.3 minutes to reach our eyes. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that it takes the light from the moon 1.3 seconds to reach our eyes. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that light goes around the Earth 7.4 times in one second. But of course, you know better hey?
if you didn’t know any better, you couldn’t deny that light can be slowed down (see here). But of course, you know better hey?
Simply amazing!
The stupidity echoes louder and louder. So going by your definition of a “designer”, an “artist” or even a “creator”, it is not that they design or create say a painting, but make the canvass evolve? Seriously... your allergic reaction to the word “create” or “design” is somewhat bemusing, yet amusing nonetheless. Going along with everything else you’ve posted so far. LOL!
Oh really? Care to elaborate? This post should be in a book... a comic book for scientists, that is!
Did you mean verbatim? LOL! Laughing “insanely” at your comments (and logic) so far!
The ignorance of your response is staggering. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
Ah yes, you DO have a reading comprehension problem, that would explain a lot. Sorry to have used multi-syllable words that evidently confused you.
I would agree. You should try reading posts before responding to them as it makes you sound really stupid.
There are plenty of reading comprehension courses online, you should seriously consider them.
Not much to elaborate, the statement was self-explanatory.
No, I didn't. That's why it's very important you invest some time in remedial reading courses as you clearly don't understand the written word.
A thousand comedians out of work and you two decide to be funny.
Need some help finding reading comprehension courses or are you ok with that?
I didn't know people could quote holy books without stating specific reference point for their extract, such as page number or verse. Plagiarism , especially from god's himself, is not right.
You were doing so well there for a second.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.
What we currently know about matter/energy it that it is neither created nor destroyed. It can only change form. This doesn't alter due to time.
The words "space" and "time" refer to essential aspects of reality. That we measure them is irrelevant.
"Cause" creates an infinite regress making your universe infinite.
Do they exist outside our constructs? Is universal space a real phenomenon or an illusion of our perceptual limitations? Is the world present only in dimensions we assign to it? Is there time without a beginning?
Time as we understand it begins when we are expelled from the universal black hole. Before that moment is undefined. Also, as I understand the effect of black holes on time, that moment is going to be of indeterminant length "looking" at it from here as time seems to slow as the event horizon is approached.
As long as you have to get up and go somewhere to arrive there, space and time is as real a phenomena as anything else. Our perceptions evolved to survive STP like conditions on earth and they are pretty reliable under those circumstances.
As long as you have to get up and go somewhere to arrive there, space and time is as real a phenomena as anything else. Our perceptions evolved to survive STP like conditions on earth and they are pretty reliable under those circumstances.
Could you support that claim with evidence?
Did you manage to stay alive and get done what you needed to do? Voilà!
Why would you think that? Please elaborate?
Sure. But the law (1st LTD) only speaks for what happens (and can't happen) after it is there. It doesn't say that it was there eternally though does it? One may very well deduce it did from this law, and that it may continue to do so forever. But that is not what science is saying. Not only that, conversation of energy simply means that the net energy (dynamics of physical systems - work) is 0 when the particle and antiparticle pairs' work rate cancels each other out.
No, we don't measure space nor time Swarm. We use them to measure our perception of reality.
But that's how this Universe is. It is but an interwoven mesh of causality - of temporal moments that link each other almost seamlessly. However, when we regress all these temporal moments, we always beg the question as to what caused the prior etc - priori cause. That's why it's considered a fallacy of logic in Philosophy.
If you can accept this theory being circular logic and think about it carefully, then you will come to a conclusion that; ultimately we will need a truly atemporal and uncaused original existent (causer), state-of-affairs, or whatever you want to call it - (outside of this temporal causal existence). It really is a necessary solution to this logical problem. Wouldn't you agree?
Sure, but it still doesn't deem it as eternal though. Only that it may look to us like things are happening at an excruciatingly loooooong rate of time there is all. It's like looking at our universe and seeing distant galaxies and then assuming it is infinite in size. Sure, it may look like this, but we do know the universe is finite in all aspects, so far.
Sure it is. I can understand and appreciate that. But think of this for a moment Swarm; we all have perception right? Most of us know how to love, hate, etc. Now say instead of measuring the universe with our perception of space and time, we use say... love? I could "estimate" things within my perception of what I sense through love (of my own "quantization" - if that's a word for it? lol). The same is implied with seeing space with our eyes and keeping a metronome within our bodily functions as time for example. Anyone can keep track of change and proximity of what they sense in their own way and percieve it in any way they want really, and that is their own interpretation of "reality" at the end of the day.
What I'm trying to say is that "measuring" is not what actually makes the physical universe in essence, nor its properties like gravity, electromagnetism etc. These are the truly observed and "measured", in science at least.
...
Since we're on this topic, I thought you may be ineterested to read these verses I found in the Qur'an and I would be interested to hear what you think? Not trying to imply anything at all, but I at least respect your level of cognition and understanding of what I've been trying to say all this time. We have similar theories at least as to what may have caused the BB epoch. Just bear in mind that this is not numerology or anything silly like that, except for some inspirational words (for me anyway)
:Bismillah'IrRahmaan'IrRahiim.
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.
051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace. PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
036.040
YUSUFALI: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
PICKTHAL: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
SHAKIR: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
086.01-03
I swear by the sky and (and the phenomena of) Tariq.
And what will explain to you what Tariq is?
It is a star that pierces (or makes a hole).
[The Qur'an uses the word Thaqib in Arabic, a word that literally signifies a puncture or a hole.]
051.007
YUSUFALI: By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths (weavings),
PICKTHAL: By the heaven full of paths,
SHAKIR: I swear by the heaven full of ways.
[In this verse, the word huu-buk is used in Arabic and means "weavings" or being like a knitted fabric.]
021.104
YUSUFALI: The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.
PICKTHAL: The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it.
SHAKIR: On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.
This last one is my favourite!
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What is that evidence of? Three dimensions? Space? Time? Or solipsism?