The population problem

What should we do about the population problem?

  • Space colonization of planets/moons

    Votes: 14 16.5%
  • Improve food production (ie. nanotechnology)

    Votes: 3 3.5%
  • Sex education and availability of safe sex devices

    Votes: 18 21.2%
  • Birth restrictions

    Votes: 25 29.4%
  • There is no population problem

    Votes: 16 18.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 9 10.6%

  • Total voters
    85
i don't have time to read everyone else's answers or suggestions, so, sorry if i rehash, but...i think that the universe ends up taking control of the population in the end regardless. it could be through war or famine, weather, disease...the universe is in constant balance so if anything gets out of hand, it eventually compensates for it. i think that there are plenty of things that people could implement, however, society is lazy...especially in america, and we are 'rewarded' for pumping out kids (welfare--assistance is good, but the system is taken advantage of), not to mention religion plays a big part in the birth control issue. there are many faith based families who believe it is a 'sin' to inhibit conception. so, ideally, there are plenty of options--allowing stronger sex education classes in schools, increasing availability of birth control...i suppose the main focus would be on EDUCATION. it is proven that people who obtain better education opportunity produce at a later time in life. this alone would cut down on overpopulation. we currently have babies having babies. there really is no generation 'gap' anymore.

:confused:
 
Overpopulation,

The international community has committed itself to an ambitious goal: cutting in half the number of people living in absolute poverty by 2015.

That’s a scary remark don’t you think so?
Hand out the Katana’s !!! (Japanese swords) :p
Source:
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2002/english/ch1/page2.htm


“If we put our resources into it, I think we could colonize mars and maybe even the moon or other planets. The problem is that we are distracted by all the crap happening here on earth. Maybe I am too much an optimist, but I think we could we do it.”

Of course we can,…and personally I want it too, but I’m not in power. Unfortunately,…
I said it many times before: if only they would invest as much in space-sience as in warfare,…*sigh* Annual Dod buget: 389Billion$$$Dollars$$$!!!

Imagine what these people could do with a buget like that! And I quote:
"With the construction of multiple space elevators, there can be the start of new commercial markets, new resources and possibly a true spacefaring society. Just as the transistor was the first small step in the current computer age, the space elevator may be the step that takes our children to the stars,"
and:
An operational space elevator could be launching 13,000 kg payloads every 3 days within 13.5 years. Recent analysis is also finding that the first space elevator might be built for less than $10 billion total, including launch costs, and a second elevator would cost a small fraction of the first. The first elevators could be financially self- supporting (including recovering the initial construction costs and the cost of borrowing this money) within the first 10 years of operation simply on the commercial satellite market. The recurring costs are: 1) climbers, 2) power beaming system operation, 3) low-Earth object tracking system operation, and 4) anchor operations. For the initial space elevator these recurring costs combined with repaying the initial capital investment would give us total launch costs of $500/kg ($230/lb or 1/10 to 1/100 of conventional systems).
Using today's energy costs, researchers figured a 12,000-kg Space Shuttle payload would cost no more than $17,700 for an elevator trip to GEO. A passenger with baggage at 150 kg might cost only $222! "Compare that to today's cost of around $10,000 per pound ($22,000 per kg)," said Smitherman. "Potentially, we're talking about just a few dollars per kg with the elevator."
sources:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_elevator_001226.html
http://www.howstuffworks.com/space-elevator.htm
http://www.eurekasci.com/SPACE_ELEVATOR/Space_Elevator_Homepage.html
http://www.eurekasci.com/SPACE_ELEVATOR/intro.html
http://www.techtv.com/news/scitech/story/0,24195,3370398,00.html
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_elevator_020327-1.html



There are (to) many cheap alternatives to overpopulation though, actually: these systems are already in place and being used ‘actively’, or maby I should say corretely: ‘latent’
But without the world’s consent.

Examples:
The US special virus program,…created AIDS and there’s proof! They just don’t want to acknowlegde the proof,…congress, sience, is in the pocket of the powerfull: the lobby’s, the bussinesses and industry’s of the world.

MUST READ LINKS:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Urgent_Action/AIDS_Contract.html
http://www.namebase.org/main2/Jakob_Segal.html

Yet another attorney with Aids on a Quest BUT WITH PROOF: ( though he’s stuck on the race issue)
source:
http://www.boydgraves.com/

Long before there was AIDS the US used other means of population control and eugenics:
Especially the Native Americans, and afterwards the ‘Black’ community was targetted. Check your history:

MUST READ LINKS:
http://brain-mind.com/BrainStorms.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~bkonop/GermIncidents2.html

The history and background:
Der Hintergrund:
Entstand das Aids-Virus im Genlabor? Diese These der Ostberliner Professors Jakob Segal sorgte seit Mitte der 80er Jahre über viele Jahre hinweg für Gesprächsstoff in der einschlägigen Presse. Auf AIDS-Kongressen in der ganzen Welt wurde die These diskutiert, belächelt, bekämpft, jedoch war sie weder eindeutig zu beweisen, noch wurde sie bis heute eindeutig widerlegt. Durch Indizienketten stellte Segal folgende Theorie auf: Es sei bewiesen, daß die USA nicht nur einmal biologische Waffen und Medikamente an Häftlingen erprobte. Diese wären für die bereitwillige Mitarbeit z.T. früher als geplant aus der Haft entlassen worden, zumindest jedoch nach einem Zeitraum, in dem man mögliche Auswirkungen der Präparate als bereits erfolgt erwartete. Da man das ohnehin mit langer Inkubationszeit wirkende HIV-Virus (von dem Segal vermutet, daß es durch ein Experimentieren mit dem verwandten Schafvirus in dem Hochsicherheitslabor Fort Detrick, Maryland, eher zufällig, ungewollt und unkontrolliert entstanden ist) bis Anfang der 80er Jahre nicht einmal durch Antikörper mangels Testverfahren nachweisen konnte, seien auch in diesem Fall die Häftlinge unbehelligt entlassen worden und bewegten sich traditionell den grossen Städten zu (New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles), wo sie eine ausreichende Subkultur vorfinden konnten um unterzutauchen und durch bereits in Gefängnissen praktizierten Drogenkonsum (Austausch von Nadeln) und (so Segal) auch homosexuelle Kontakte das Virus weiterverbreiteten. Die drei genannten Städte waren auch die ersten Epizentren der bis heute unheilbaren Krankheit in den USA. Sowohl den Argumenten seiner Kollegen vom Ursprung des Virus aus dem afrikanischen Dorf als auch von den Virusfunden aus den 50er Jahren setzte Segal eigene Überlegungen entgegen. Auch den offensichtlichen Gegenbeweis, daß Antikörper in Blutproben aus den 50er Jahren aufgefunden worden seien, erlegte er argumentativ.
Spätestens mit dem Fall der Mauer, wurden natürlich auch Segals Thesen endgültig in die Nähe einer ehemals revanchistischen Verleumdung des kommunistischen Ostblocks gegen den Erzfeind USA gerückt und nicht ernsthaft weiterverfolgt.
Free translation:

Was the Aids virus created in a Gene-laboratory? This theory (wich has now been affirmed by the found of the virus flow chart by attorney Graves) created a lot of commotion in the media. Discussed on various AIDS congresses trroughout the world, this theory was laughed upon, denied, arumented, analysed, but until today, no-one succeeded to prove nor dis-prove it’s preposition (it depends on how much FOIA will contribute and how much willingness there is from the congress and international community).

By means of a logical chain of incidents Segal put forth the following theory:
According to events and cases already widely documented and described it is PROVEN that the US Dod (department of defence) by means of a (secret) virus program, tested various medications and biological weapons, on several detainees.

For these where to be released upon co-operation with the program, (if they survived that at all!) Ofcourse after the possible ‘incubation’ time (wich is where the term is coming/derived from, the correct medical term and vieuw should be: ‘latency’) was likely to be expired. Because they worked with various myoplasmic diseases, ONE of them had a longer ‘incubation/latency’ term, this was later called : HIV (where it should have been medically correct named: HTLV III. In the ‘80ties there where still no means and/or the knowlegde to detect destinct these contaminated cells from healty ones,….) So ‘acidentally’

(personal note: this is offering the US government a susceptible situation in where there’s room for an official appology, if this was to be vieuwed as did they purpously and deliberately released it, this theory would soon rid itself as being an attemp at a conspiracy theory to destroy blacks, or homophobics or as actually happened see below*)

these people where thus released and quickly dispersed themselves in the highly accesible drug and homophobic scenes in the big cities: New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles. Since these ‘sub-cultures’ reasembled the prison culture where drug abuse (read: needle-exchange!) and homosexuallity where already widely spread, they formed the ‘perfect’ nesting grounds for this terrible and un-cureable dissease.
The three cities New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, was the EPICENTRE and the initial startingpoint of this ‘accident’.

The arguments that AIDS was allegedly found in apes in Africa and in virus-strings dating back from the fifties (Visna, HTLV) where proven wrong by Segal, based on his own argumentation. Also the allegded counter-evidence of anti-particles in bloodcultures dating back to the fifties, he disproved basing his evidence on his own findings.

Later on: The German wall was broken down and Segal found himself in the aftermath of the silent war (cold war) his thesis was seen and interpreted as an revanche by the communists to paint the USA black and to smear it’s name in an attemt to create a little chaos and spread disinformation.

Personal note: The US government cheered this explanation so the opposition was burried, not even with sustainable sientific evidence to back them up, and the pharmacutical industry was already looking for a way to make big money out of this chicken with the golden egg’s,…. (a standard AZT treatment on a one year basis costs the patient 20.000$ and about 10.000$ on other medicins)

Anyway, as a result of this, the theory was not pursued anymore with scrutiny, if you did: you belonged to the ‘non-patriotic’, ‘non-chauvinistic’ people, who clearly had a screw loose, ect, ect,….it was further ridiculed and trown onto the pile of conspiracy-theory’s*

*an exerpt from:
http://www.aids.wustl.edu/aids/streck.html

"Soviets Secretly Tried to Blame U.S. for AIDS--CIA" Reuters (09/30/93)

Langley, Va.--For more than five years, the former Soviet Union
attempted to blame the AIDS virus on a plot by U.S. military
scientists, according to newly declassified CIA documents. The papers
reported that the Soviets launched a campaign in 1983 aiming to tie
the emergence of AIDS to American biological weapons research. The
disinformation was circulated in 25 different languages in over 200
publications, as well as in posters, leaflets, and radio broadcasts,
in more than 80 countries before the campaign was finally abandoned by
the Soviets, according to a study cited by the CIA in the
documents. The Soviets dropped the campaign in 1988 when the United
States refused to cooperate with them on a research program on AIDS,
which was by then spreading in the U.S.S.R., said the CIA article. The
Soviet campaign was apparently retaliation for the Reagan
administration's claims of Soviet-produced "yellow rain," or yellow
traces found on vegetation due to a Soviet biological weapon.


Personal note: Now why would they spread an disinformation campain wich was later declassified by the FOIA if they simply could prove that it wasn’t true in the first place,….wich they couldn’t because the evidence is so overwhelmingly strong and clear.
So covering up for the mistakes made, and the make-belief of ‘the’ discovery of a ‘new’ type of disease/‘retrovirus’ and to propagate ‘their’ way on how to treat the disease, was an easy thing to do after that.


Links to be studied for a minimum of understanding on these issues:

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm
Exerpt:
“We succeeded very easily with the second strain. But there lies the quite mysterious problem of the contamination of that second strain by the first. That was LAI.”

“There are MT cell lines which have been found by the Japanese (MT2, MT4) which replicate HIV very well and which at the same time are transformed by HTLV. So, you have a mix of HIV and HTLV. It is a real soup.”

Personal note: it’s not a soup, everything is verry clear and obvious. You just have to ‘know’ the truth, that’s all.
Relevant links:

http://www.geocities.com/enuf25/HIVNATURALORMANMADE.html

The man himself : (this site is in German but VERRY intresting)
http://www.monochrom.at/segal/
exerpt:
“Daß ein so zweifelhaftes und dazu extrem teures Medikament sogar noch vor Ablauf der Erprobungsprogramme zugelassen wurde, erklärt Nussbaum in einer ausführlichen Schrift (Fußnote: Nussbaum, B.: Good Intentions - How Big Business and the Medical Establishment Are Corrupting the Fight Against AIDS; The Atlantic Monthly Press, New York, 1990) durch die finanzielle Kraft der Burrow-Wellcome C-ie, des Herstellers des AZT, und durch die Empfänglichkeit leitender Mitglieder der amerikanischen AIDS-Lobby für Geldgeschenke. Kurz nach Erscheinen seines Buchs starb Nussbaum unerwartet und nahm den Anwälten von Wellcome die Möglichkeit, seine Anschuldigungen vor Gericht zu widerlegen.”

Free translation:

“That such a doubtfull and extreme expencive medicine was aproved, before the actual testing-faze was completed,
(the graphs showed a slightly raise of life-expectancy with a few month’s but it was later admitted that these numbers where easely manipulated, as is common when working with statistical material)
was explained by Nussbaum in a well documented study:
(Good Intentions - How Big Business and the Medical Establishment Are Corrupting the Fight Against AIDS; The Atlantic Monthly Press, New York, 1990)
by the financial power of Burrow-Welcome C-ie, the maker of AZT, and by the willingness of the members of the AIDS-Lobby for an extra income (Money ‘donations’)
Shortly after publicizing his book Nussbaum died suddenly an unsuspected death, and the Lawyers quickly, swiftely and eagerly used this opportunity to deny the acusations.”


---I think it’s clear that Nussbaum was assasinated.---





Did you know that economically, only 20% (rich) people of the world population control about 86% of the world’s Bruto International Income? Then how about information control?

Do you really think the pharmacutical Industry is going to let the people slaughter their ‘chicken with the golden egg’s?
Or that the government is reaaaaally *long streched voice* ever going to admid that they created it, and thus opening the door for those ‘other’ (conspiracy-)theory’s that they didn’t accidetally, but deliberately, set it free?

NO WAY MAN,….if it happens> those 17million people who have attracted the disease in the meanwhile would kill’em, that would mean a history RE-write, a RE-volution an outrage!

Esspecially if they ever find out that the cure for AIDS is actually quit simple but disregarded and disaproved of, by that same Industry that is,…
Read:

If you don’t believe all of this you’re either verry sceptical, stupid or verry naïve, you also could be one of those benefiting from it and thus actually on the side of the ‘real’ conspirators, assasins,…


Well, rest assured: the truth will never die in spite of all those people who will,…..

I’ll be happy when I’m still alive to see the space elevator become true, if the industry permits it that is,….

Greetz fukushi
 
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that was a too fast reply to be an objective response, but it's a subjective reaction afterall so,...:rolleyes:
 
Fukushi,
Yes, I haven't yet read all of the AIDs links and I am quite skeptical about it. It is quite possible it was born in a lab but beyond that is speculation.
I agree that it would be great if only a percentage of the DOD budget was directed at space tech. I am not a huge fan of the elevator..simply because I would prefer we focus on bigger things such as way to achieve interstellar travel. But it would be better than nothing and we probably need to take baby steps anyway.
Thanks for posting...
 
The first step:

for all mankind: the space elevator must be build quickly. It will not only lift humans into space, but will be the trigger of interplanetary travel and eventually expand our conciousness.

be shure to read the rapports on this:

NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts: The Space Elevator.
By Bradley Carl Edwards


Space Elevator -- Technology Development Needs (April 5, 2001)
Compiled by David Smitherman


Space Elevators: An Advanced Earth-Space Infrastructure for the New Millennium (August 2000)

That last link was intended for public use, maby there working on the page, or has been sensored. I don't know, but the first rapport is verry encouraging!

Enjoy reading,
fukushi
 
I doubt we have enough food in the long run. We’re over-harvesting renewable food resources so they aren’t replenished. Fish stocks, for example, are diminishing rapidly. When entire species are wiped out for meals and you have to flood your crops with carcinogenic pesticides, you know it’s bad.

The space elevator is the last solution to try. The world community does not have the spare billion trillion dollars needed to colonize Mars. If we did we should spend it to make the Earth into the paradise it could be if we pulled our heads out and worked to resolve the population problem in the only way that makes sense: reduce the population.
 
then where does it get teh money to wage war do you think?!ç!!!!
no the space elevator is just a fraction of the anual buget of the dod so you can't possibly claim it's the last thing we need.

you need food? did you ever where hungry?
then where did you get food?

there's enough food, it's just not evenly distributed. Pestacides are things that are NOT good for the soil, it destruckts the future. you don't have to tell me that.

It doesn't cost are 'spare' trillion or billion dollars,.....to colonise mars.


if it's between you and me well: I must say to you: live by your own proposition yourself and Kill yourself then?
 
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It costs much less to wage war than to colonize another planet (I don’t suggest war as a solution). The space elevator gets us only a teensy tiny fraction of the way to colonization. You are right that it doesn’t cost a spare billion or trillion dollars to colonize. It costs a billion trillion dollars. As in $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Or thereabouts. A mission is planned to Mars which will bring a small rock back to Earth. It will cost an estimated ten billion dollars to get that rock.

If we don’t use pesticides, then the food supply is radically cut and people will starve. If pesticides destruct the future as you say, then aren’t we eating today at the expense of the future?

There are options to reducing the population which do not involve killing. Reducing the birth rate is the best solution I think. If we can get everyone to have no more than two children of their own then the problem will be largely solved because through attrition the population would decline.
 
Okay,...

Sorry for my rage then,...:(

So birth-control should help a bit okay, I agree, but let's look at china: in tremendous ways, it changes civilisation: no more brothers, aunts, ect,...
that would not apply if people where indeed allowed two kids,...but still: there are families who can't afford two kids: so would the other families, who can afford a lot of children, be allowed to, for instance: 'buy' the right for a third one, a forth, ect ect?

I think that will result in the bigger families having better services: especially now.

There are also country's where there's really an urgent need for people to breed! Because the live stock is going backward and won't be enough people who work to pay the elders their pension! So there really is a problem that in some country's they need young blood and new kids, ( who are ofcourse familiar with the culture) and in some the don't need EXTRA children at all.

For the food: I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed by some dangerous chemicals: I eat Biological, vegetarian and am verry aware of what the big industries do to promote the use of chemicals. (wich is, believe me, REALLY NOT nessecary!)


A hundred years ago, they said the same about going over seas and to discover new land: it wasn't nessecary, it cost too much, and the queen wanted to see gold! -->it had to pay off!

Believe me if I say that it WILL pay off, if that elevator is build, after that there will be a DRASTIC drop of the price-tag to put a payload in orbid,...within fifteen years,... a trip to mars could be reduced, from 10.000.000.000$ us dollars now,
too: 10.000.000$ dollars within fifteen years!!!

Please consider this as an investment:
I posted the anual-buget from the DoD somewhere before on this forum, but it's somewhere in the archives by now I think, look for it, it should be somewhere in free toughts.

So sorry if I mistook your words as an challenge,...it wasn't a good moment for me to respond, I'm glad you take it so maturely.

(finally someone who can take a bump :p )

I know I'm an asshole myself sometimes;) okay?
 
I don’t see a problem with people buying the right to have 3+ children from someone else who will have one or no children. An easier way to achieve the same thing with less distaste would be to jack up the taxes of someone for 3+ children (it's the opposite now in the U.S.). There are issues with the one-child solution in China like you mentioned, like no siblings. Unfortunately they let the population get out of control there and had to take a drastic measure. I believe the one-child limit is no longer the law there.

That’s a good point about the “urgent need for people to breed.” It’s a major stumbling block to reducing the population. Many countries’ economies are based on a growing population. If the population declines it’s considered a disaster. In Japan the native Japanese percentage of the population is losing ground to other nationalities. Some officials there are promoting higher birth rates to get the percentage up so the Japanese culture does not erode. In Mongolia the population is declining, so it is now socially acceptable to have sex at any age with any partner. The world is not working together on this problem.

I would like to see space exploration continue and the space elevator sounds like a good idea on paper at least. I just don’t think it is the best answer to the population problem, which is too critical to afford the long time it would take to colonize the Moon or Mars. Also it seems to me the answer is staring us right in the face. If the people of the world worked together then a true disaster may be staved off. Nature will dictate the solution if we don’t, but I’d like to see the people solve the problem so less will suffer.

What do you think is a healthy world population? I'd say about 2 billion. That's enough to make things interesting, but small enough that populations of all species can be maintained. Based on my gut feeling anyway.
 
I know this sounds harsh but is practical - Sterilisation programmes in 3rd world countries, and birth restrictions in over-populated countries.
Plus, a licence to be a parent!
 
there is no population problem, the idea of population as a problem comes from people who are closet case, clostophobia.
the world will not begin to have a population problem untill the population reaches some 2 trillion beleive me the figures have been done, the probelm is with the mangagement of civilizatin.
even at 2 tirllion the state of population would still be reasonable and the problem just begining. what it demonstares is that in a perfect system we have a long way to go before their is a population problem. it also shows that people are making up ideas to effect society the way they want to, to fulfill there parinoid ideas.
wehat is needed is better management, leaders with better ideas, restructing of laws ect.... the idea of brith controll ect... to controll societys growth is not need in real figures that relate TO REAL TIME events of population growth and supply of resources.

be fruitfull and multipy on the face of the earth.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON
 
the world will not begin to have a population problem untill the population reaches some 2 trillion beleive me the figures have been done, the probelm is with the mangagement of civilizatin.
I think the first part of the sentance fits the phrase 'Over 72.352% of statistics are made up.'
The second part I agree with. First is the fact that meat is our main food. It takes alot of resources/land to grow animals. We still need meat for certain vitamins, but not as much meat. Then there is the amount of food we waste, along with paying farmers to grow less because we have no one to sell it to.
 
I think the best question is not “How many people can the world possibly fit?” but “How many people optimizes the standard of living in the long run?” Why be fruitful and multiply if it makes the world a worse place for all to live?
 
Well Zanket the idea that you exspess is one that says let me be lazy and the world remain unmanaged, basically one that does nothing to protect their enviroment, kind of like who cares about puting the aluminium can in the recycle bin.
the figure regarding 2 trillion person on earth has nothing to due with how many it can fit verses a worse life, those that would shit another because it makes them fill better about them selves would say why use the toilet when i can shit on you.
there are many reason for actually increasing population growth, primarly biology, such as the rate of breeding to counter inbreeding rates. which is the standard of the health of humans as well as there function. just for note the births per female have dropped by more than half in the last century, world wide!
the use of technology in manging the land of the world provides enormous factual development. it is lazy people and focus of govermnt that make the world a more limitimg and incroaching place.
Note the current majority of human population lives on less than 5% of the physcial land mass.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON
 
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