The joys of life without God

any branch of science you care to mention is punctuated by an incompleteness of knowledge

Then stop using your godamn computer, it may just blow up in your face!!;)

When are theist, going to stop belitleing science using a device that was mainly brought out by scientific research and knowledge? And still have the gull to call science incomplete! What pathetic idiot does not realize that if it was not for science, the electric circuit runing through your computer, would still be useless! Like it was in the darkages! :(
 
Originally Posted by falcon22
Anyone who believes in God is pretty conceited. And probably loves himself too much to actually believe that some invisible being would care enough to listen to prayers and form His will over others. A little like Hitler. ”

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
responding to a purely emmotional response with another purely emmotional response is purely emmotional ”

Where's the emotion in my response?

You say anyone who believe in god is conceited yet you don't say why.
You say that anyone who believes in god actually doesn't believe in god because they love themself too much yet you don't say why.
You say such a person is like hitler but you don't say why.

In otherwords the essence of your post is that theists are conceited, love themselves too much and are fascists, all with an absence of argument- that's not emmotional?


Are you using that as a defense against my response?
I am saying you have not actually given anything to lodge a defense against.


Isn't that a bit of a cop-out? Besides, don't you realize by now, everything has a point of view, and every text in the world has some form of emotion?

Good argument however is the ability to give reasons for one's opinions

Bible has the emotion of being morraly superior, authoritarianism, subserviency, anger....

so do most parents - whats your point?

Government reports have the emotion of Patriotism, Nationalism, revenge, anger, pride...
however the exhibitions of such emmotions don't distinguish an inferior government report from a superior one -



Romantic novels have emotions. News papers have emotions, no matter how objective they try to be. Poems have emotions.
debate also has emmotions - it also has reasoning too

Does emotion make a text any less credible?
no - but an absence of any formulation of argument does


Emotion is not what diminishes the credibility of a text; lack of evidence and lack of logic is what makesit less credible.
exactly - so responding to one set of opinion with another opinion is fruitless in debate in the absence of evidence, hence my original response

Your logic that because my response is emotional, it is not to be taken seriously, is a falliable logic because everything has emotions and if we go according to your logic, then everything should not be taken seriously and you damn well know that that's not the case in reality.
I never advocated that - your recent thread about religion being hairy balls is a good example of something that should not be taken seriously though - why - because its 100% emmotional and lacks any serious compilation of evidence
 
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Then stop using your godamn computer, it may just blow up in your face!!;)

When are theist, going to stop belitleing science using a device that was mainly brought out by scientific research and knowledge? And still have the gull to call science incomplete! What pathetic idiot does not realize that if it was not for science, the electric circuit runing through your computer, would still be useless! Like it was in the darkages! :(

I use my computer for various word processing and reading applications - maybe you can tell us how a person uses a computer for completeness because as far as I can fathom computer users are just as (if not more) unsatisfied than anyone else

- I don't think I have ever said that science is bogus

- you seem to forget that a lot of scientists are strongly theistic too (famous ones too - do you want me to compile a list of scientists and theistic quotes for you?)
 
You say anyone who believe in god is conceited yet you don't say why.

Oh!! I know this one.

It's because you pathetic arrogant theist think that the mighty creator of the whole godamn universe is going to be looking at your pathetic little ass, and answer your stupid prayers!!:p
 
I don't think I have ever said that science is bogus

VS

any branch of science you care to mention is punctuated by an incompleteness of knowledge

I try to explain to your senses, if you have any up in that nugget you call a brain, that the computer, exists cause of complete knowledge and use of electric circuit which was developed by science!! :rolleyes:
 
Oh!! I know this one.

It's because you pathetic arrogant theist think that the mighty creator of the whole godamn universe is going to be looking at your pathetic little ass, and answer your stupid prayers!!:p

colourful

However there is more to argument than using bad language .....

For instance a less powerful country sometimes seeks the shelter of a powerful country with treaties and trade agreements - is that also conceited? Or is it good sense?
 
For instance a less powerful country sometimes seeks the shelter of a powerful country with treaties and trade agreements - is that also conceited? Or is it good sense?

Don't change the freaking subject!

You can't compare an objective country that exists, and happens to be powerfull that protects others not so powerfull, to some SUBJECTIVE idea of a god that may or may not give a flying shit about you!! :p
 
Godless

another opinion in the absence of evidence



I try to explain to your senses, if you have any up in that nugget you call a brain, that the computer, exists cause of complete knowledge and use of electric circuit which was developed by science!! :rolleyes:
I am surprised that you give the computer as an example of complete knowledge because there are constantly new and improved computers coming on the market (but they all seem to break down and require constant debugging)- how can there be new improvements if the knowledge is complete?
 
Don't change the freaking subject!

You can't compare an objective country that exists, and happens to be powerfull that protects others not so powerfull, to some SUBJECTIVE idea of a god that may or may not give a flying shit about you!! :p

It was said in essence that because a theist seeks the protection of god they ar econceited - I pulled the general principles of that statement and applied it to another circumstance to reveal that the general principles you used were false.

Now you have changed the subject to emmotional declarations (completely bereft of evidence or premises BTW) that god does not exist or something.
 
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“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
and after 60 years of such teachings you will find the language corrupted - heaps of examples in asia like that ”

Give me one example. Korea has mixed importance with Japanese and Chinese laugnage emphasis for over 500 years. Korean language is still not corrupted. My grandma knows Japanese and Korean both fluently. I gave you one example. Where is yours?

English words find their way in and replace their traditional counterparts - like for instance the traditional bengali word for chair has been replaced by "che-yar" - I imagine we could find similar examples in korean too


“ Only provided that they are actually operating out of a religion in the first place ”

Yes, they are operating out of religion. Education is supposed to be secular. Or you don't remember the principle of separation of church and state? Unless it's a private education system, schools should not be operating IN religion.

I mean learning about other religions only serves a purpose to a person who is religious (ie situated in religion) - otherwise it becomes an academic exercise, and I think we could both agree on the value of such exercises


“ On the contrary it helps for the scientific unless you want to propose that purpose and structure are not interelated ”

It does in no way help the scientific world. I can simply say that this computer is too complex to have been created by random chance and thus it must have been created by higher beings, us humans and that's intelligent design right there. That's not science; that's simple deductive reasoning.
its not clear what point you are trying to make here

Science is questioning evoluion and questioning the world around us, not taking ANY side but instead trying to explore different levels of the environment. For example, why did some fossils which are older than other fossils end up in a higher layer of the ground? What is the meaning of short evolutionary bursts and then a long period of slow adaptation? These are the flaws of evolutionary theory that is being questioned. It's PURELY science, no god involved, no higher power involved. This is science. Questioning the world around us and trying to figure it out, this is science. How is claiming that a Creator is behind everything helpful to scientific? Would/Could you explain that to me?

again, purpose and design are inter-related - just like if you know the purpose of a computer it becomes easier to fathom its design
 
Its very difficult to advocate that god doesn't exist on the strength of erudite scientific pursuits since such paradigms cannot even tell us anything about the nature of our own consciousness - whats the need to talk of miracles .... science cannot explan why we have a sense of self.
What makes you think that? Science can and does tell us a good many things about the nature of consciousness.

In any case, you don't really want a "god-of-the-gaps", do you?
 
- I don't think I have ever said that science is bogus

Yes, you have.

- you seem to forget that a lot of scientists are strongly theistic too (famous ones too - do you want me to compile a list of scientists and theistic quotes for you?)

Please do, but only scientists with achievements over the last 20 years.
 
- you seem to forget that a lot of scientists are strongly theistic too (famous ones too - do you want me to compile a list of scientists and theistic quotes for you?)

Religious scientists are by far in the minority. As Dawkins goes at some length to describe in The God Delusion: Apologists (like yourself) managed to find 6 out of several hundred scientific nobel prize winners who were 'religious', and four of those six, were not even Nobel Prize winners at all, and one who is a non-believer who just happens to go to church for social reasons.

A study of American scientists elected to the National Academy of Sciences found that only 7% believe in a personal god, which matches almost with the percentage of atheists among the general American public, and scientific atheists the opposite of the religiosity of the general American public (around 90%).

As for Britain, scientists of the Royal Academy who responded to a questionnaire revealed that of the 225 scientists who responded, only a mere 12 were believers, with biological scientists being more atheistic than other fields. Which Dawkins attributes to biologists having their 'conciousness raised' due to understanding of natural selection (how complexity comes about from simpler and gradual progressions).

And in general, higher levels of education and literacy corresponds also with higher levels of atheism. This is why, in my view, theists have a bad reputation.
 
You say anyone who believe in god is conceited yet you don't say why.
You say that anyone who believes in god actually doesn't believe in god because they love themself too much yet you don't say why.
You say such a person is like hitler but you don't say why.

I do say why. They love themselves too much because they actually believe that God cares enough to answer their prayers or give a fucking shit about them. And of course, that's emotional. Everything's emotional. Emotions make power. And if you read between the lines, you'll see how that's related to Hilter. Hitler loved himself so much that he thought God was favoring his actions, that killing Jews was what God wanted. That's as extreme as it could get. Plus, I used the same syntax you used in your argument about atheists to add a little more pun and fun. It was fun, but I guess you don't get humor that much, do you?

In otherwords the essence of your post is that theists are conceited, love themselves too much and are fascists, all with an absence of argument- that's not emmotional?
Yep. It's emotional. But so is everything else. It's emotion based on the reason that God doesn't really give a shit about you at all, but you're conceited for thinking that he does.


your recent thread about religion being hairy balls is a good example of something that should not be taken seriously though - why - because its 100% emmotional and lacks any serious compilation of evidence

No evidence? I gave you the evidence of the Crusades, Manifest Desitiny, War in Iraq, Lebanon election crisis, Hitler, Mohammad, Saudi Arabia, Thirty Years' War, etc...

What more do you want?

Oh, you want me to be detailed, is that it? What, you can't read secondary sources on your own? You want me to summarize everything for you because you're too lazy to look up great sources and enlighten your religiously narrow mind? Look, I gave you some examples, it's up to you to investigate those exmplaes and see how right or wrong I am.

Besides, this is an Internet forum, not a place to write theses and nonfiction books. It's just to get you to think about it a little bit so you can find more about it.

When religious people ask me to look it up. I do. I've read the entire bible (mainly because my dad is a pastor). I know what's up. I read half of the Koran. I read the Teachings of Buddha (the translated version). I read historical texts (check out Lies My Teacher Told Me and Crisis of Islam). People tell me that I have to read in original language or whatever. So I refer to some people who can speak Greek or Hebrew or Latin and talk to them.

I'm not supposed to give you every detailed evidence there is, not on an Internet forum, when I have so much fucking stuff to do for my college course anyway.

If you want to stay closeminded and just choose not to believe in anything I say without giving any thought to any other sources or any of the evidence I have already stated, fine. Be that. Stay in your parochial school of thought. Stay with your religion and do whatever your religion has always taught you to do and continue telling others about your awesome religion. IT's your life, it's your choice.

Instead of looking down at me for not providing a GOOD compilation of evidence, how about you actually counter my arguments with evidence of your own, instead of trying to put me down all the time? You don't win debates with personal attacks. Actually, debates like this are unwinnable. But at least, it'd be good if you provide your own examples once in a while.

Oh, and one last thing. Korean language has augmented new English words and new Chinese words but those were additions and it's still pure as it was 1000 years ago. The only difference between the dominantly English country and Korea is that Korea simply has more bilinguals and trilinguals like me.
 
What makes you think that? Science can and does tell us a good many things about the nature of consciousness.

In any case, you don't really want a "god-of-the-gaps", do you?

Why we have a sense of "I" is a complete mystery to science (at least in terms of empirical evidence)
 
Fire

“ - you seem to forget that a lot of scientists are strongly theistic too (famous ones too - do you want me to compile a list of scientists and theistic quotes for you?) ”

Religious scientists are by far in the minority.
yes - thats the main contributing problem with the world at the moment - intelligence that isn't guided by foresight

As Dawkins goes at some length to describe in The God Delusion: Apologists (like yourself)
Just out of curiousity do yuo consider being an apologist derogatory? .... the previosu pope took it upon himself to apologize to various communtiies in the world for actions taken by the church in the past several hundred years - I don't know if any scientists have apologized for any serious disasters they have conrtibuted to - on the contrary they usually say something along the lines of "New information has come to hand so now we can ensure that this will never happen again" (speeches like this are quite common after world wars and the like - but you also find them in connection to issues like global warming)

managed to find 6 out of several hundred scientific nobel prize winners who were 'religious', and four of those six, were not even Nobel Prize winners at all, and one who is a non-believer who just happens to go to church for social reasons.


A study of American scientists elected to the National Academy of Sciences found that only 7% believe in a personal god, which matches almost with the percentage of atheists among the general American public, and scientific atheists the opposite of the religiosity of the general American public (around 90%).

As for Britain, scientists of the Royal Academy who responded to a questionnaire revealed that of the 225 scientists who responded, only a mere 12 were believers, with biological scientists being more atheistic than other fields. Which Dawkins attributes to biologists having their 'conciousness raised' due to understanding of natural selection (how complexity comes about from simpler and gradual progressions).

when you go from what you stated above to ....

And in general, higher levels of education and literacy corresponds also with higher levels of atheism. This is why, in my view, theists have a bad reputation.
you are making a false claim - it tends to indicate something about the dominant paradigms of instruction presented in scientific education moreso than education and literacy etc
 
(Q
Yes, you have.
quote me



Please do, but only scientists with achievements over the last 20 years.
just out of curiousity, what is the special achievements of science in the past 20 years - was science non-science 20 years ago? If science was fallible 20 years ago will our current levels be fallible in another 20 years?
 
Why we have a sense of "I" is a complete mystery to science (at least in terms of empirical evidence)
Is it? A complete mystery? No tentative hypotheses, or vague ideas of any kind?

Even if that is so (which I don't buy for a second), how does that mean that it is forever beyond the reach of science, as you seem to be saying? Even if that, too, were the case, why should this lend credibility to your idea of god?

There's no good reason to suspect that god resides in the holes in our knowledge of nature. In fact, history suggests otherwise - every gap examined has turned out to hold no divinity. Why should your gap be any different?
 
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