The Ineffability of God's Will

[Lori_7]

I don't know, you tell me:

"what extremity? opening my eyes? being accountable? admitting i'm wrong? rejecting the things that hurt myself and others?"

(#25; boldface accent added)​

i told you, i don't support, enable, or accept porn, lust, or organized religion.

Your theology is all over the place, Lori. Arbitrary, in fact. Specific encouragement from the Holy Spirit to Mr. Hermogenes' soul has not been part of this discussion so far; you're tilting a windmill on that one.

no i'm not. god's voice and influence is via the holy spirit. any other direction is a lesson in what not to do, and it didn't come from him.

Just how often do church youth leaders rape teenagers and then set the girls on fire?

Out of seven billion people on Earth, just how many of them rape? Certes, it's a discouraging raw number, but even among rapists, what proportion of them set their victims on fire?

Or, rather, what do you mean by "so often"?

i mean often enough. and i'm sorry, but have you ever heard of catholicism? i'm pretty sure that raping teenagers is a prerequisite for a leadership role in their organization.

and really? really? you want me to list the atrocities that go on every fucking day on this planet, to kids and adults alike? children are sold into slavery. they're a huge part of the sex trade, like chattel, like objects, abused, raped, their whole lives, tortured. kids are used as human shields in war. have fucking bombs strapped on them and sent off to explode. and yes, arson is often used to cover up other crimes, like murder for instance. i can't even believe you're trying to sugar coat this now. and you call me cruel? wtf?

And what is evil?

get a clue.

I need not be arbitrary to say with absolute confidence that of all the things I might complain about in my life, I have never experienced suffering that even begins to compare with the effects of being raped and set on fire.

well you're not dead yet; there's always tomorrow, and things aren't getting any better. like i said, it's surprising what people get used to.

And do you feel better for having said that?

no. i'm not venting. this is what i deal with every day 24/7. call it my burden if you will, and i'm just fine with that. somebody's gotta have the vision and the balls to do it, and i will...

"And right here, right now
All the way in Battery City
The little children raise their open, filthy palms
Like tiny daggers up to heaven

And all the JuV halls and the Ritalin rats
Ask angels made from neon
And fucking garbage scream out "What will save us?"
And the sky opened up

Everybody wants to change the world
Everybody wants to change the world
But no one, no one
Wants to die

Wanna try, wanna try, wanna try
Wanna try, wanna try, now, I'll be your detonator"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egG7fiE89IU

 

[spidergoat]

i told you, i don't support, enable, or accept porn, lust, or organized religion.

Liar.

 

[Lori_7]

Liar.

prove it.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori ! I just can't believe how you think like me . I understand the burden of responsibility falls on all . Me included ! I do my part to fuck things up .
I try to learn from my fuck ups and move forward . Yeah one day the dream will manifest . As far as prostitution goes , we need to clarify degradation more for sexuality is people consent in my book and not just a blanket law.
So to me porn can be what the doctor orders in the right circumstance. Now don't go jumping Me bones Lori . Degradation of people been going on sense the fall and is not just in the things you claim . It is more state of mind . You know think bad be bad kind of thing and then if the lust overwhelms bad deed occur . O.K. consider this . Some guys with there little peckers an lack of social skills might only be able to get there sexual satisfaction from a picture . Now consider I prostituted my self for 40 years by being a carpenter, am I any better than the girl that sold her nakedness so a guy that will probably never feel the warmth and wetness of a tight pussy so he can have a good organism. Prostitutes follow Jesus Lori . Not by excepting him as there savior but by deed. They bring joy to the rejected .

O.K. porn addicts that is best argument for you little peckered guys that get no nooky

sorry, but i'm going to defeat that argument.

i agree with you, that lust is a mentality. remember i'm the one who wishes everyone could walk around naked, or wear whatever the hell they want, and not have it be a problem. the reason it's a problem is lust.

in our society, and even in our families and towards each other, we dissect people and use certain parts of them (attributes) in a lot of different ways and for a lot of different reasons. lust is like that. it's a false perspective...it's a lie. it's taking a particular aspect of a person, discarding the rest, and not even appreciating that aspect, but using it for the purpose of self-gratification. it's not appreciating or admiring someone's beauty. it's not a holistic or true perception. and that perception, and the activity you're suggesting isn't helping anybody, including the poor guy with the little pecker. you can still get married even if you have a little pecker. and if a women is only interested in the size of your dick then she's an idiot anyway.

is whacking off to porn helping him overcome his socialization issues? no.
is whacking off to porn motivating him to get out there and meet women? no.
is whacking off to porn cultivating a healthy perception of women? no.

porn is for losers...case closed.

 

[Nasor]

god...

gives us good and evil
allows us to make choices
allows us to witness and experience the consequences
and judges us accordingly

where's the enigma?

The enigma (for me, anyway) is that this seems to imply that god values the criminal's right to choose between good and evil more than he values the right of the girl to not be raped and set on fire. This seems exactly backwards from pretty much everything humans think we understand about morals and justice. Virtually anyone would agree that we have a moral duty, both as a society and as individuals, to stop the criminal (rather than simply let him commit his crime and judge him afterwards), because the girl's right to not be raped on set on fire trumps the criminal's right to do whatever he feels like. Why is that it would be immoral for me to ignore the girl's plight and watch impassively while her attacker raped and burnt her if I had the power to intervene, yet it is moral for god to do so? Or would I be wrong to intervene? Should I stand by and do nothing to help and then arrest the guy for punishment afterward, on the theory that since god values the attacker's right to do whatever he wants, I probably should too?

 

[wynn]

Tiassa -

Do you think that if you changed your attitude toward theism - just for the sake of the argument and temporarily - this could invite different theists and different exchanges?

As it is, you're stuck in a rut with the same attitude, the same theists and the same exchanges - over and over again ...

 

[Rav]

porn is for losers...case closed.

Do you realize that if you took all the commercial porn off the Internet, and all the porn that features participants who were coaxed into making it, and even all the porn that was produced by willing participants because they were "into it" but was supposed to be private, that there would still be a large amount of porn on the Internet? But let's imagine that this remaining porn, which is freely created and distributed by people who want other people to see it (most likely because they get an exhibitionist buzz out of it) is also removed. What we're left with (unless I'm missing something) is explicit adult educational films designed for couples who want to spice up their sex lives and all the mainstream films that feature explicit unsimulated sex. But because the latter is often accused of being porn dressed up as art, let's get rid of that too. There is still the question of whether the former is porn dressed up as sex education, but let's assume that it really is created for the primary purpose of promoting a healthier sex life among couples who genuinely care for each other.

Is it still contemptible in your view? The reason I ask is because I'm just trying to get a better sense of where you're actually coming from.

 

[Tiassa]

Especially Job, and Other Notes

god's voice and influence is via the holy spirit. any other direction is a lesson in what not to do, and it didn't come from him.

Balaam. Job.

Especially Job.

i mean often enough. and i'm sorry, but have you ever heard of catholicism? i'm pretty sure that raping teenagers is a prerequisite for a leadership role in their organization.

and really? really? you want me to list the atrocities that go on every fucking day on this planet, to kids and adults alike? children are sold into slavery. they're a huge part of the sex trade, like chattel, like objects, abused, raped, their whole lives, tortured. kids are used as human shields in war. have fucking bombs strapped on them and sent off to explode. and yes, arson is often used to cover up other crimes, like murder for instance. i can't even believe you're trying to sugar coat this now. and you call me cruel? wtf?

It's worth this girl's rape and immolation that you can be reminded of how evil you think lust is?

Yes. That is cruel. At the very least.

get a clue.

I'm not psychic, you know. Your declaration of evil, your definition of evil.

well you're not dead yet; there's always tomorrow, and things aren't getting any better. like i said, it's surprising what people get used to.

And I can say with absolute confidence that there will always—always—be someone in this world who has it worse than me.

no. i'm not venting. this is what i deal with every day 24/7. call it my burden if you will, and i'm just fine with that. somebody's gotta have the vision and the balls to do it, and i will...

I can see how it would be taxing to celebrate other people's suffering so you can pretend to get a little closer to God.

.....Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
.....Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
.....And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
.....Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
.....Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
.....Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

—Matthew 5.24-46​

• • •​

Mind is a disease of semen.

All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.

Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.

This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.

Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.

—Perdurabo​

To the one, it strikes me curiously who you sound more like.

To the other, Perdurabo wasn't nearly so pessimistic as you.
____________________

Notes:

Weigle, Luther A., et al. The Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version. Second edition. New York: Thomas Nelson, 1971. University of Michigan. June 23, 2011. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

Perdruabo. "Steeped Horsehair". The Book of Lies. 1913. PuggryDuckling.com. June 23, 2011. http://www.puggryduckling.com/uncle_al/lies/index.html

 

[Lori_7]

Do you realize that if you took all the commercial porn off the Internet, and all the porn that features participants who were coaxed into making it, and even all the porn that was produced by willing participants because they were "into it" but was supposed to be private, that there would still be a large amount of porn on the Internet? But let's imagine that this remaining porn, which is freely created and distributed by people who want other people to see it (most likely because they get an exhibitionist buzz out of it) is also removed. What we're left with (unless I'm missing something) is explicit adult educational films designed for couples who want to spice up their sex lives and all the mainstream films that feature explicit unsimulated sex. But because the latter is often accused of being porn dressed up as art, let's get rid of that too. There is still the question of whether the former is porn dressed up as sex education, but let's assume that it really is created for the primary purpose of promoting a healthier sex life among couples who genuinely care for each other.

Is it still contemptible in your view? The reason I ask is because I'm just trying to get a better sense of where you're actually coming from.

i wasn't under the impression that most people who watch porn do so because they can't figure out how to have sex otherwise.

i mean, don't you think if left alone a couple could figure it out on their own?

animals don't have to watch instructional videos to learn how. i doubt if they need to watch other animals do it to learn how. i'm pretty sure it's instinctual. i'm sure that's been studied.

how do you know we're not shortchanging ourselves by learning in this way? i think that if left to our own senses, inclinations, and creativity, rather than focusing on some learned "technique" we may be more fulfilled, not only physically but emotionally and mentally as well.

 

[Lori_7]

tiassa,

are you typing with one hand and sucking your thumb on the other by chance?

i think you've taken one too many doses because you've gone and lost your mind.

otherwise, how do you figure, that opening my eyes and taking a look at the atrocities going on REGULARLY AND NORMALLY in this world, learning something from them and demanding change is celebrating them?

how do you figure that you occupy some elevated moral ground by assigning no meaning to these atrocities and making excuses for the perp? yeah, give him a pill, lock him up, or hook him up to electrodes and study his brain, and watch it go on every day, again, and again, and again. you're like blind mice spinning on your little wheels going nowhere or perhaps to hell, but you can't (won't) see it coming.

well some of us have had our eyes opened, and we see what's going on and why, and we don't want another pill, and we don't want another joint, we want the fucking cure, and we know exactly what that is. we aren't trying to pretend like this suffering is ok; like everything's fine; like it'll all work out if we elect another politician, practice another religion, develop a new technology or a new drug to take. WE'RE NOT THAT STUPID. we are putting an end to our suffering by bringing about the kingdom of christ. and you know what? every one of us has an open invitation, and if you don't want to take it, i don't feel sorry for you.

 

[Lori_7]

Tiassa -

Do you think that if you changed your attitude toward theism - just for the sake of the argument and temporarily - this could invite different theists and different exchanges?

As it is, you're stuck in a rut with the same attitude, the same theists and the same exchanges - over and over again ...

and you're an expert at being stuck in a rut now aren't you.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

i wasn't under the impression that most people who watch porn do so because they can't figure out how to have sex otherwise.

i mean, don't you think if left alone a couple could figure it out on their own?

animals don't have to watch instructional videos to learn how. i doubt if they need to watch other animals do it to learn how. i'm pretty sure it's instinctual. i'm sure that's been studied.

how do you know we're not shortchanging ourselves by learning in this way? i think that if left to our own senses, inclinations, and creativity, rather than focusing on some learned "technique" we may be more fulfilled, not only physically but emotionally and mentally as well.

I don't know bout that in reality ? I know some women have never been sexually satisfied . It is a shame for woman to lack that kind of pleasure in her life . I blame it on uneducated Men for the most part . Not knowing what it takes to get a woman wet and wanting . I am pretty good at it . Practice does help a person improve . I think "how to sex books" can help a couple overcome taboos about sex . Try all 52 possibilities . They are fun . I know . F-ck I am a lucky bastard , Pussy Pussy Pussy . O.K. sorry for gloating again . I know it is wrong . I got my first education at 12 years of age f. From a book called " All you want to know about sex but were afraid to ask " Guys get reduce it to memory and you will have a solid base to grow from . Lori A lot of women don't know what it takes for the man to satisfy them . It is the nature we live in from God male dominance religion and sex is bad taboos . So the prudish type wife is reliant on the Man knowing how to deliver sexual gratification . If they don't then they don't get the nooky and then you can bet there will be trouble in paradise . End in divorce when one of them finds sexual gratification some were else .

 

[wynn]

and you're an expert at being stuck in a rut now aren't you.

I am sure Jesus loves you!

 

[Tiassa]

Well ... er ... um ... how?

Do you think that if you changed your attitude toward theism - just for the sake of the argument and temporarily - this could invite different theists and different exchanges?

As it is, you're stuck in a rut with the same attitude, the same theists and the same exchanges - over and over again ...

I'm not certain just how I would change my attitude.

No, really. I don't know.

The question of evil in the face of an omnipotent, beneficient deity is one that has plagued Western theologians for centuries.

There are, of course, ways around the question, but those redefine God's attributes in a way generally unacceptable to the faithful. The great philosophers of the Christian heritage, for instance, have never managed a definitive solution to the paradox.

In blaming demons or other embodiments of evil, one shifts their burden of liability, essentially blaming God. But what do such theological constructons say about God? The responses I've seen so far are illuminating, albeit depressing as well.

 

[Rav]

i wasn't under the impression that most people who watch porn do so because they can't figure out how to have sex otherwise.

That wasn't really what I was getting at. I was simply creating a best possible scenario (given the elements in play) in order to work out if you think it is the viewing of the explicit material itself that makes someone a loser. Alternatively you could just be one of those people who think that masturbation is inherently disgusting and "sinful". So which one is it?

 

[Bells]

Some of the responses make me question why I had children..

One thing that has to be understood about Tiassa's bigotry is that it's an insouciant one, coming and going with his mood. He scans the intertubes looking for samples of Janis Joplin's cryofrozen underwear (not today, her genetic return, perhaps, but one day) and stumbles on this story and demands blutgeld. Recompense. A reckoning that shall terrify the masses of religious sheeple, and remind them of their proper place. 'Come ye and comment on that which to my eyes maketh no sense!' And it probably won't to the eyes of theists either: it's an old question of commenting on the morals of an often incomprehensible concept that purports to govern in the world in which we breathe and poop and die. I expect the contrast of Eden was developed for the express purpose of explaining this world of hurts, and then forgotten. Anyway, my personal impression of God is the watchmaker (no, not a micro or macroevolutionary one) that, having wound the universe, lets it run, but holds the door of redemption based on relative moralist choices: each tested according to their measure. And so from that perspective, Tiassa's bigoted battering is pointless, but rings well.

So pray tell, what demons do you use as an excuse?

sure. hearing that story makes an impression on me, about how dangerous lust is. it creates a negative association which changes my mind and changes my own behavior.

but from what i can tell, unfortunately a lot of people either don't get it, or don't care. i hear people on this forum argue all the time about how lust is such a wonderful and/or harmless thing.

Says she with the very provocative photo on the forum...

Do you know what I don't get? That this girl and what happened to her did not make an impression on you. Instead, you think about yourself and just how right you think you are.

do you think that the man who committed the crime is the only one who's guilty? i don't. i think we're all guilty.

And what is the 14 year old victim guilty of that she somehow deserved such a punishment at the hands of her attacker?

every day we tolerate a society that perpetuates such atrocities. none of us are innocent, and we all bear a burden. it seems sometimes though that the greater the innocence, the greater the burden. and for all of those motherfuckers who want to argue with me about lust being ok, and pornography is ok, well fuck you, and may you rot in hell where you belong.

Again, says she with the semi-erotic photo of herself on the forum and who has in the past posted images of her backside on the forum..

Or is that the "lust" demon?

my last post described what the bible calls repentance, but it goes further than that. because i can see how wrong we are, i can believe in a right. there can't be a wrong without a right. because i believe in the possibility of a right existence, i demand that from god, and i (and others) are willing to do whatever it takes, and sacrifice anything and everything, to see that it's manifest.

Repentance for whom?

Do you think a demon made this man rape and then try to murder his victim by choking her and then setting her and her house on fire?

i think we have to believe in something before it can be manifest, and i and others do, like it's our job.

I see.

So because this individual believes in the "sexual demon", it has therefore manifested?

If this is the kind of thing that you and "others" believe in, then you can keep it to yourself.

what extremity? opening my eyes? being accountable? admitting i'm wrong? rejecting the things that hurt myself and others?

i don't do that because i'm afraid. i do that because i give a shit...unlike yourself,

Hang on.. This is you giving a shit?

Heh!

who's just out here having an emotional tirade because he wants to have his cake and eat it too. well boo hoo. congratulations on being another ineffectual moron who wants to bitch about what's wrong with the world but won't admit anything's wrong with themselves. well aren't you just so above it all.

where's your hostility coming from tiassa?

i may or may not be doing you any favors. i don't give a shit which side you're on so here's an idea...if you don't want answers, then stop asking questions.

And boo hoo for you for your hypocrisy.

Tell me, does it bother you that someone questions someone's morality when they blame their brutal attack on another person, a child, on demons?

Your version of 'what's wrong with the world' is to blame it on lust and pornography, all while posting semi-pornographic images of herself and then talking about how better she is and how this crime makes her better.. Really, we are meant to take you seriously?

You're not providing answers. You are simply providing 'praise the lord' cliches that belong on some tele-evangelist.

Instead of actually looking at this individual like an individual, you try and find excuses for his behaviour and actions.. I mean how can he be to blame when there is so much lust and pornography? Instead of expecting him to take responsibility for his actions, you try and excuse it.

You, Lori, are a hypocrite.

gives us good and evil
allows us to make choices
allows us to witness and experience the consequences
and judges us accordingly

So tell me, what evil did this girl commit to have her deserve this? Is this her repentance?

What choice did she have?

Was this her consequence?

And how is she being judged and for what?

Tell me Lori, how about you apply some of your Christian God loving dogma the victim instead of trying to excuse the actions of her attacker on 'sexual demons'. Better yet, how about God applies some of his supposed teachings about how and why this girl was raped. You speak of good and evil, of consequences and repentance and choice. Yet she had none. How does that work for God? Why did she not get a choice? Why did she not have a say?

Why does this only apply to those who wish to harm?

again, god didn't rape that girl. and you'll be the first one to complain about the concept of hell or the apocalypse.

And yet, supposed demons did, demons you said do not exist without God's knowledge or will. So why did God allow one of the demons he supposedly created and allowed to exist, to do this to this girl?

Why did God deny her a choice?

how am i accountable? i don't look at porn. i don't lust after people that's how. i don't support or entertain the evil that almost took that girl's life. and i wouldn't trust my daughter alone with a youth pastor either. i don't support organized religion. I KNOW BETTER.

So it is her parents fault for trusting her to someone who preached what you are preaching here?

Does that mean I should never trust you with my children?

You said earlier that we are all accountable. Have you now changed your mind?

what's wrong? exactly what the bible says is wrong, we're sinners. now go and argue with me about that. "porn's fine. lust is fine. there's nothing wrong with me." well i'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways, and i'm not blind.

No. But you are a blind follower.

tiassa you're trippin. he didn't have to rape the girl, and was not in any way encouraged to do so by the holy spirit. do i believe in demons? yes i do. do i believe you have a choice as to whether you entertain them or not? yes i do.

Instead, he supposedly chose to listen to the voice of a demon that exists by God's will..

oh yes, here we go. if it's such an "exception to the rule" then would you care to explain why it happens so often? right, everybody's gotta mental illness. everybody's a schizophrenic. stop making excuses! evil causes suffering, period. just because you arbitrarily decide that certain sufferings are worse than others, doesn't mean it's so. you'd be surprised at what we've all gotten used to.

And yet, God apparently allows evil to exist.

In fact, evil exists from God's will.

So tell me, how used are you to being raped and set on fire and left to die? I can assure you I have never experienced it. Maybe it's because I am an atheist..?

so take it as a threat, and think i'm cruel, cause you can bet your sweet ass that i'm praying every day for the annihilation of this evil fucked up society, and the restoration and redemption of those who desire salvation. because i'm done suffering, and i'm done watching other people suffer too. and if there's anybody who isn't, and who thinks this is all ok, or that it can be fixed with another stupid fucking politician, or stupid fucking religion, or stupid fucking pharmaceutical, or by throwing some more fucking money at it, well then fuck them straight to hell.

So you are praying for all of us to die?

You must have been devastated to read that the girl survived then.

So which demon to you use as an excuse for your desire to see all of humanity perish?

it's where their dumb asses belong.

How very Christian of you.

 

[GeoffP]

Horned poster

So pray tell, what demons do you use as an excuse?

Grumpy internet posters. They're worse than paper cuts.

Actually, the topic post lectures.

I also made clear that, "I'm actually trying ... to figure out the theological implications."

I think you have left your conclusion behind, however:

Every once in a while, I feel the urge to check in, and see if people have gotten over that sort of silliness.

..

Such as the proposition that, "Theologically ... such outcomes do God a great service of some sort.

Yes, and that was another odd thing: what service is this doing God? Or rather: in what way is ineffability serving God? I don't think I've ever heard such an opinion rendered on divine ineffability; so that indeed would be new (see below), if unusual.

I'm trying to figure out what it is." Thus, one might wonder how believers are called upon to answer for it. It turns out their insight might be useful, because, "It is only by selective and inconsistent theology that the demons operate outside God's will."

And that insight is quite striking, Geoff.

You'll forgive me, but it seems to be no more than a refrain to the old rub of why God permits evil. My god is a more laissez-faire sort of persona; you might have a point if you were requesting answers of the theologically rigid; yet even they could dredge up "to each according to [his/her] ability". Did you read my comment about closing one's eyes? Tests, etc. Job.

Right, but if you were paying attention, I was looking more at what the theology told us about God.

The question makes no sense because it juxtaposes atheism and God. The two concepts are not analogous.

Oh, but I was indeed paying attention. For the intents and purposes of the corporeal world, they essentially are: God is a concept or philosophy, as is atheism; neither has much existence in the real world (if you will excuse the term) from the perspective of an atheist, or naturalist, aside from the ideas that constitute it. So, if calling one to account for the crimes of its adherents - however loosely their glue sticks - it is as well to call the other. And thus, probably silly, so far as can be seen.

I included life because the discussion with Lori—which you are obviously following, since you see fit to offer a critique—seems to deal more with what the theology tells us about life.

You will forgive me, but I am not Lori, and I have not really much read her arguments on here. I suspect she is an Evangelist of some strain? But refrain from pigeon-holing your antagonists, I say unto you: refraaaain...

I don't disagree that genocide by totalitarian atheists has little to tell us about atheism itself, but neither do I see the utility of your bizarre seeming comparison of atheism to God.

Then I am pleased to have cleared the matter up for you. My perspetive is, as it inevitably is, quite functional in approach. I regret that functionality, but it is a philosophy that appears to have a strangehold on my conscious existence.

 

[Lori_7]

Says she with the very provocative photo on the forum...

what provocative photo?

Do you know what I don't get? That this girl and what happened to her did not make an impression on you. Instead, you think about yourself and just how right you think you are.

well that's because you're the quintessential hater bitch.

And what is the 14 year old victim guilty of that she somehow deserved such a punishment at the hands of her attacker?

you can't possibly be this stupid, but just in case i'll reiterate. we're all sinners and we all carry a burden because of it. we can be our own victims and we can also be each others victims because (as if you didn't know this) we live a communal existence.

Again, says she with the semi-erotic photo of herself on the forum and who has in the past posted images of her backside on the forum..

what the fuck are you talking about? what semi-erotic photo? you best be explaining yourself because if you're out here lying about me i'm going to see about getting your mod privileges revoked or suspended.

and yes, the image of my backside donning my priestess granny panties was for haters like you, as a very appropriate gesture for you to kiss my ass.

Or is that the "lust" demon?

oh ok, i think i understand now. perhaps i should be wearing a burka. or perhaps i should be wearing a long skirt. one that covers my ankles. you can't possibly be referring to my avatar could you? oh ffs hold on...

:roflmao:

whew! i'm cryin here. that was a good one.

is it because the top i'm wearing doesn't have sleeves? is it because it's sleeveless bells? is it the ruffles? is it the hat? is it the fact that i'm smiling? i'm not even showing any cleavage!

god you're an embarrassment to the human race! motherfucking haters with a mentality like yours are the reason women get stoned to death in the middle east!

WHAT THE FUCK?!

this is going to be a shock to you, but this is how people who don't hate think...

they wish that everyone could be free to be naked, and beautiful, and happy, and exactly who they want to be, without being judged and hated or victimized by some fucked up person like yourself.

Repentance for whom?

for me.

Do you think a demon made this man rape and then try to murder his victim by choking her and then setting her and her house on fire?

made him? no. i don't think spirits can make people do anything they don't already want to do.

I see.

So because this individual believes in the "sexual demon", it has therefore manifested?

If this is the kind of thing that you and "others" believe in, then you can keep it to yourself.

no you don't see, and if you would pay attention to context instead of your blinding hate, perhaps you would understand what i was talking about.

Hang on.. This is you giving a shit?

Heh!

oh honey, you haven't seen giving a shit like i give a shit.

And boo hoo for you for your hypocrisy.

Tell me, does it bother you that someone questions someone's morality when they blame their brutal attack on another person, a child, on demons?

no.

Your version of 'what's wrong with the world' is to blame it on lust and pornography, all while posting semi-pornographic images of herself and then talking about how better she is and how this crime makes her better.. Really, we are meant to take you seriously?

you come out here with a post like this and you expect anyone to take you seriously? you're a fucking joke.

looking at an atrocity like this and the multitude of others that go on every day in this god forsaken world and realizing that there is something terribly and inherently wrong with the human race that it can not and will not ever fix itself is nothing but common sense. it's not my fault that your precious ego squelches yours.

You're not providing answers. You are simply providing 'praise the lord' cliches that belong on some tele-evangelist.

bells, you're a cliche.

Instead of actually looking at this individual like an individual, you try and find excuses for his behaviour and actions.. I mean how can he be to blame when there is so much lust and pornography? Instead of expecting him to take responsibility for his actions, you try and excuse it.

i'm not excusing anything.

You, Lori, are a hypocrite.

you, bells, are a hateful bitch.

So tell me, what evil did this girl commit to have her deserve this? Is this her repentance?

nothing. look up the word repentance. you can't possibly understand what it means if you asked this question.

What choice did she have?

none that i'm aware of.

Was this her consequence?

for being born into a fucked up world full of evil people, yeah i guess so.

And how is she being judged and for what?

she's not being judged, she's being victimized. what is wrong with you?

Tell me Lori, how about you apply some of your Christian God loving dogma the victim instead of trying to excuse the actions of her attacker on 'sexual demons'. Better yet, how about God applies some of his supposed teachings about how and why this girl was raped. You speak of good and evil, of consequences and repentance and choice. Yet she had none. How does that work for God? Why did she not get a choice? Why did she not have a say?

i in no way shape or form excused her attacker. you either didn't read what i said, or you're purposefully lying. none of us get a choice or have a say about a lot of things bells. wake up. we're all born into a fucked up world that we had nothing to do with creating, and then we proceed to fuck it up even more. it's the nature of the beast. and you may wish it were some other way, but it's not, and from what i can tell, you're not willing to do a damn thing to make it any better yourself.

Why does this only apply to those who wish to harm?

it doesn't.

And yet, supposed demons did, demons you said do not exist without God's knowledge or will. So why did God allow one of the demons he supposedly created and allowed to exist, to do this to this girl?

the demon didn't do it, the "pastor" did.

Why did God deny her a choice?

it's what happens when people are victimized bells, wake up. what planet are you on? the perp had a choice.

So it is her parents fault for trusting her to someone who preached what you are preaching here?

no it's her parent's fault for trusting her to some pedophile who got her drunk and raped her and then attempted to kill her.

Does that mean I should never trust you with my children?

do what you want.

You said earlier that we are all accountable. Have you now changed your mind?

no.

No. But you are a blind follower.

i see what's wrong with the world because i see what's wrong with myself. can you say that? or would you rather continue to believe lies?

Instead, he supposedly chose to listen to the voice of a demon that exists by God's will..

he's full of shit, and yes he chose. spirits are like enablers. you have to invite them and entertain them according to your own intentions.

And yet, God apparently allows evil to exist.

yes it's called duality. good couldn't exist without the possibility of evil, and we choose. isn't that right bells?

In fact, evil exists from God's will.

the possibility of it is embedded in the law, yes. doesn't mean we have to choose it.

So tell me, how used are you to being raped and set on fire and left to die? I can assure you I have never experienced it. Maybe it's because I am an atheist..?

how many stories that are this bad or worse do you hear on the news every single day? maybe you're just privileged?

So you are praying for all of us to die?

if that's what it takes. everybodies gotta die sometime. may as well be for a good reason.

You must have been devastated to read that the girl survived then.

no i wasn't, but i do wonder how she feels about her survival.

So which demon to you use as an excuse for your desire to see all of humanity perish?


How very Christian of you.

i attribute that to my relationship with god. he's shown me the possibility of an existance that is so right and beautiful. not like this one with our slavery and suffering and disease and war and atrocities du jour. i guess you enjoy all of this suffering huh? well then, off to hell you go! :wave:

you haven't read or understood a damn thing i've said. you're either retarded or you're a joke. either way, until you're willing to actually have an intelligent conversation instead of just randomly making shit up so you can spew your caddy bitchiness all over the forum, get lost.

 

[Lori_7]

That wasn't really what I was getting at. I was simply creating a best possible scenario (given the elements in play) in order to work out if you think it is the viewing of the explicit material itself that makes someone a loser. Alternatively you could just be one of those people who think that masturbation is inherently disgusting and "sinful". So which one is it?

now we're on masturbation? i think masturbation is sad. kind of pathetic you know? i mean, usually people do it in lieu of a satisfying sexual relationship with another human. right?

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

I think you have left your conclusion behind, however ....

Well, when you won't explain yourself, I have to guess. Is that what you want?

Because the answer I would offer is that you have yet to establish any sense of obligation. But if you want to know how a black gay woman feels about something, you don't ask me; you ask a black gay woman.

Do you think it would be more constructive, then, if I simply projected faithful answers?

Yes, and that was another odd thing: what service is this doing God? Or rather: in what way is ineffability serving God? I don't think I've ever heard such an opinion rendered on divine ineffability; so that indeed would be new (see below), if unusual.

The answer to your question is the ineffable part. I have no idea what God gets out of this. But we do have some precedent; the smell of burning flesh from an animal sacrifice, for instance, pleases the Lord. Or so says the Old Testament.

Like I mentioned to Chimpkin, maybe God is trying to learn something.

Or, like I wrote in the topic post:

Now, then: What was God's purpose in the rape, brutalization, and maiming of a fourteen year-old girl?

This is the ineffability of God's Will.​

Only God knows what It gets out of the deal.

You'll forgive me, but it seems to be no more than a refrain to the old rub of why God permits evil.

Yes. Indeed, forgive me as I forgot to make clear that the question of evil in the face of an omnipotent, beneficient deity is one that has plagued Western theologians for centuries.

I'm glad you're here to figure that out for us.

My god is a more laissez-faire sort of persona; you might have a point if you were requesting answers of the theologically rigid; yet even they could dredge up "to each according to [his/her] ability". Did you read my comment about closing one's eyes? Tests, etc. Job.

Indeed, my idea of the monotheistic ultimate reality results in something I have long described as God without consequence.

Additionally, it could be that I'm simply missing your point since you've been aiming for hostility.

However, your idea of God—or mine—notwithstanding, what we're dealing with here is a theological assertion—i.e., the demons made him do it—that has certain problematic implications. We do not erase the problematic implications from that particular theological arrangement by simply substituting another for the purposes of our discussion. That is, regardless of what you or I think about God, what we're dealing with here is what Mr. Hermogenes thinks about God, insofar as he has told us anything at all.

And that theology is problematic.

If there neeeds to be an underlying theological lesson to teach, it would be that in a Universe where everything is according to God's will, that includes the evil. And there are plenty out there who believe in such a monotheistic outlook who think they know what God wants. In considering what God wanted in the case of this young woman and her attacker, we are reminded that what God wants is, in fact, ineffable.

So far the strongest we've gotten is that this victimization served God's purposes insofar as it reminded someone else, thousands of miles away, of what that person already believed. Something about investment and return goes here, but as we're dealing with God's will, we don't know what those values are to God. Perhaps Lori is right. Perhaps this young woman needed to be raped and set ablaze in order that Lori might remember how much she hates pornography.

Well and fine. But if I'm going to try to do an assessment of the values in play, well, okay, I'm unable to. The imbalance simply doesn't work for me. Maybe it works for Lori. Maybe it works for God.

Oh, but I was indeed paying attention. For the intents and purposes of the corporeal world, they essentially are: God is a concept or philosophy, as is atheism; neither has much existence in the real world (if you will excuse the term) from the perspective of an atheist, or naturalist, aside from the ideas that constitute it. So, if calling one to account for the crimes of its adherents - however loosely their glue sticks - it is as well to call the other. And thus, probably silly, so far as can be seen.

Well, once upon a time, there was a saying: God moves in mysterious ways.

You will forgive me, but I am not Lori, and I have not really much read her arguments on here. I suspect she is an Evangelist of some strain? But refrain from pigeon-holing your antagonists, I say unto you: refraaaain...

So ... you're offering a critique based on selected details?

If you're looking at four square inches of Suerat's A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, you might complain about the low resolution. If you look at the whole picture, of course, the question of pointillism takes on a different context. And Suerat, if you'll forgive the pun, might well have had a point.

That is, the context might change if one considers the whole instead of an isolated detail.

Then I am pleased to have cleared the matter up for you.

Don't pat yourself on the back too much. All you've cleared up is your own straw mant.

My perspetive is, as it inevitably is, quite functional in approach. I regret that functionality, but it is a philosophy that appears to have a strangehold on my conscious existence.

I wouldn't object to functionality or utilitarianism in themselves, but I might question your function on this occasion.
____________________

Notes:

WikiAnswers. "Does 'God moves in mysterious ways' come from the Bible?" (n.d.) Wiki.Answers.com. June 24, 2011. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_'God_moves_in_mysterious_ways'_come_from_the_Bible

Artchive. "Suerat, A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte". (n.d.) Artchive.com. June 24, 2011. http://www.artchive.com/artchive/S/seurat/jatte.jpg.html