The Inadequacy of Atheism

Yes!



Oh! hell don't take the ad hom's literally! just been to used to getting frustrations out in here, I get them too so I dish them out, I don't take them literal, "once I did" but I've learned to live with it. But in your case, I'm begining to like you lol!! really! so determined, reminds me of SouthStar.

I read the bible kjv, I read the LDS bible, amongs others. My first indoctrination as a child, Catholic then christian teenager, babtist late teens early twenties, I chose atheism at the ripe old age of 21. I've been an atheist for lots longer than most kids here have lived, nothing new under the sun, always the same old rheoric. You are just one more in a long list here who have tried, to convince people that "your" god is real! ;)

You won't learn anything about the history of the church by reading their bibles, their is no refference there about; wich burnings, killing heretics, and all of those whom the clergy of the time deemed as evil, possessed by "satan" or any other crap that they seem improper in each historical time. The real history is by reading history it'self. Why the hell did the Pilgrim come to America? to get away from religious prosecution, do you think that was something new? It has always been about power!! political & economically untill today just open your eyes and your senses you'll see it!

There is a statement from the mahabharata that goes to the effect of a king that does not wield the rod of punishment (ie does not enforce laws) and the brahmana (priest) who is too attached to household life (material convenience/facility etc) is swallowed by the earth (ie they fall down from their position).

...... anyway


I am not surprised that you perceive religion as a politically motivated phenomena since it seems you have a greater passion for the political aspects of religion more than the philosophical
 
People are without joy and pleasure
Family, clan and caste are all meaningless.
Men are without virtues, purity or decency.
Evidence for these, please:

(a) An absence of joy and pleasure in the world;
(b) A nullification of the meaning inherent in the named social groups;
(c) An absence of virtues (what are these?), purity and decency.

In each case, please explain clearly how the phenomenon is related to a rise in atheism. I'm looking for some kind of statistical support - not the highly subjective opinions of any single individual.
 
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It seems that in some threads on this forum somebody will provide a comprehensive, definitive rebuttal or argument which goes completely unremarked. At the end of the first page of this thread Cris gave such a viewpoint which addressed the original post point-by-point. Why no mention of it in more than a page of subsequent contributions? Lightgigantic?

PS. My own view: trying to equate religious (non)belief with environmental respect (or the lack of) is absurd.
 
The Inadequacy of Atheism

lightgigantic said:
"People in this age eat their food without washing beforehand.
This has nothing to do with atheism. I should note that while being cleanly is beneficial – being overly so may lead to many illnesses due having an immune system that doesn’t function properly.

lightgigantic said:
Cows are kept alive only for their milk.
Again – nothing to do with Atheism. Cows were domesticated by theists. As a matter of fact I think many Hindu’s keep cows for their milk.


lightgigantic said:
Monks break their vows of celibacy.
That’s their business. This certainly has nothing to do with Atheism.


lightgigantic said:
Water is scarce. Many people watch the skies, praying for rain. No rain comes. The fields become barren. Suffering from famine and poverty, many attempt to migrate to countries where food is more readily available. People are without joy and pleasure. Many commit suicide.
This has to do with a change in climate – draughts are a natural part of the earths weather pattern.


lightgigantic said:
Men of small intelligence are influenced by atheistic doctrines.
OK – and so what? What are these Atheistic doctrines? Philosophy? If so then it may be difficult for small minded people to grasp Immanuel Kant's writtings or Bertrand Russell etc... but hey if so then it would (if anything) be a good thing!


lightgigantic said:
Family, clan and caste are all meaningless.
I’m atheist and may family has a lot of meaning to me. As for Clan and Caste – yes they are meaningless. Many Theists will agree that is so as well.


lightgigantic said:
Men are without virtues, purity or decency.
Again this has nothing to do with Atheism and all to do with those particular men.


lightgigantic said:
The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity
What are these Laws? Gravity? Centrifugal Force?

How does one disharmonize with one of these Laws?

Questions:
1.
Buddhists do not tend to believe in Gods – are they disharmonizing with these Laws of the Universe?
2.
Polytheists believe in some Gods and not other Gods (that is for some Gods they are Atheist) are they disharmonizing with these Laws of the Universe?
3.
Monotheists believe in One God and not other Gods (that is for some Gods they are Atheist) are they disharmonizing with these Laws of the Universe?

lightgigantic said:
therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)
Questions:
1.
What do you mean therefore the greatest calamity is atheism? I did not see anything that lead me to think “therefore the greatest calamity is atheism”.

Please explain what on Earth lead you to come to the conclusion: Therefore the greatest calamity is atheism.

2.
This is what you are saying:
The universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity ------- therefore the greatest calamity is atheism.


The only way the above statement can be true (therefore .... ) tis if the “certain laws” are that one must be a Theist.

Questions:
1.
How many Gods must one worship?
2.
What about Buddha (He was more enlightened than the Gods) – can one believe on Buddha and not Gods and still not violate the “certain laws”?
3.
Are monotheists breaking the Law?
4.
Are Shinto breaking the Law (they only beleive in 'Japanese' Gods)?


Thanks
Michael
 
LightG., have you nothing more to do than quote mythology to prove mythology is true?
 
lightgigantic said:
The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws....
Aye - we call them PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY, BIOLOGY etc.

lightgigantic said:
... and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity
Actually - it is an impossibility to "disharmonize" with the laws of this universe. EVERYTHING acts according to those laws - and if we see that it doesn't then it is because we have not fully understood those laws yet.
This is how SCIENCE works.

It is only when people claim to be able to flout these Laws - "disharmonizing with them" - that problems have arisen. And one common element of ALL GODS is their ability to flout the Laws of our Universe.

It is therefore the supposed GODS themselves that are the "disharmonizing" influence within this Universe!!


Lightgigantic said:
.... - therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)
The greatest calamity was early-Man's willingness to accept an unprovable blanket explanation for his deepest, unanswerable, questions.
 
It seems that in some threads on this forum somebody will provide a comprehensive, definitive rebuttal or argument which goes completely unremarked. At the end of the first page of this thread Cris gave such a viewpoint which addressed the original post point-by-point. Why no mention of it in more than a page of subsequent contributions? Lightgigantic?

PS. My own view: trying to equate religious (non)belief with environmental respect (or the lack of) is absurd.

what can I say - 40 plus hits in 24 hours is a bit of an inundation - thought I touched most of cris's statements in brief in my first open intro'd response earlier.

Its not clear why you would perceive the environment as totally unconnected with god (even in theory) - although it is a common mispractice in some strains of xtian theistic philosophy to seperate god from his creation that you may be responding to

on the side I remember when the tsunami hit a few years ago all the newspapers were full of headlines like "the fury of god" etc .... no atheists in a fox hole
 
Its not clear why you would perceive the environment as totally unconnected with god (even in theory)....
Er... lack of evidence?

lightgigantic said:
...on the side I remember when the tsunami hit a few years ago all the newspapers were full of headlines like "the fury of god" etc .... no atheists in a fox hole
Once again the theist is happy to pull colloquialisms and idioms as supposed evidence of someone's belief.

So if I say "For God's sake, stop annoying me!" does that make me a believer?
Or how about when I say "Jesus Christ!" when surprised by something?

Secondly - since when are headlines in newspapers written for atheists?
And how does a newspaper headline claiming things like "The Fury of God" equate to there being "no atheists in a fox hole"?
It's an utter non-sequitor, and another of your great flawed examples.
 
Sarkus


Its not clear why you would perceive the environment as totally unconnected with god (even in theory).... ”

Er... lack of evidence?

thats why I included (even in theory)....

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
...on the side I remember when the tsunami hit a few years ago all the newspapers were full of headlines like "the fury of god" etc .... no atheists in a fox hole ”

Once again the theist is happy to pull colloquialisms and idioms as supposed evidence of someone's belief.

So if I say "For God's sake, stop annoying me!" does that make me a believer?
Or how about when I say "Jesus Christ!" when surprised by something?

Secondly - since when are headlines in newspapers written for atheists?
And how does a newspaper headline claiming things like "The Fury of God" equate to there being "no atheists in a fox hole"?
It's an utter non-sequitor, and another of your great flawed examples.

It just indicates how the connection between god and the movements of the environment is not absurd - maybe it would be more correct to say such connections are outside our current understandings of the universe - my point was that it is absurd to use the word "absurd"
 
Now you are merely changing the meaning and tack of your statements. When they fail in their original purpose you quickly change to a different one.
Pathetic.:rolleyes:
 
Now you are merely changing the meaning and tack of your statements. When they fail in their original purpose you quickly change to a different one.
Pathetic.:rolleyes:

on the contrary I am establishing the meaning of the statements I was responding to - in debate this is called clarification
 
Nope. The Kali Yuga is over, done, finished.

According to the Vedic scriptures, our current age, known as Kali-yuga, is one of spiritual darkness, violence and hypocrisy. Srimad-Bhagavatam (12.2.31) records Kali-yuga as having begun when the constellation of the seven sages (saptarsi) passed through the lunar mansion of Magha. Hindu astrologers have calculated this to have been 2:27 a.m. on February 18, 3102 BC. This took place some 36 years after Lord Krsna spoke Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna.

The scriptures like SB 12.2 teach that during the 432,000 year age of Kali, humanity deteriorates and falls into barbarism. Humans begin to kill animals for food. They fall under the spell of intoxication. They lose all sexual restraint. Families break up. Women and children are abused and abandoned.

Increasingly degraded generations, conceived accidentally in lust and growing up wild, swarm all over the world. Political leadership falls into the hands of unprincipled rogues, criminals and terrorists, who use their power to exploit the people. Entire populations are enslaved and put to death. The world teems with fanatics, extremists and spiritual artists, who win huge followings among a people completely dazed by hedonism, as well as by cultural and moral relativism. "Religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, physical strength and memory diminish with each passing day." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.1)

The saints and sages of ancient India describe the people of this age as greedy, ill-behaved, and merciless. In this age, says Srimad-Bhagavatam, merely possessing wealth is considered a sign of good birth, proper behavior, and fine qualities. Law and justice are determined by one's prestige and power. Marriage ceases to exist as a holy union - men and women simply live together on the basis of bodily attraction and verbal agreement, and only for sexual pleasure.

Women wander from one man to another. Men no longer look after their parents in their old age, and fail to provide for their own children. One's beauty is thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly is said to be the only purpose in life. Cows are killed once their milk production drops. Atheism flourishes. Religious observances are performed solely for the sake of reputation.

The Linga Purana (ch. 40) describes the human race in Kali-yuga as a vain and stupid people "spurred on by the lowest instincts." They prefer false ideas and do not hesitate to persecute sages. They are tormented by bodily desires.

Severe droughts and plagues are everywhere. Slovenliness, illness, hunger and fear spread. Nations are continually at war with one another. The number of princes and farmers decline. Heroes are assassinated. The working classes want to claim regal power and enjoy royal wealth.

Kings become thieves. They take to seizing property, rather than protecting the citizenry. The new leaders emerge from the laborer class and begin to persecute religious people, saints, teachers, intellectuals, and philosophers.

Civilization lacks any kind of divine guidance. The sacred books are no longer revered. False doctrines and misleading religions spread across the globe. Children are killed in the wombs of their mothers. Women who have relations with several men are numerous. Predatory animals are more violent. The number of cows diminishes.

The Linga Purana says that in Kali-yuga, young women freely abandon their virginity. Women, children, and cows - always protected in an enlightened society - are abused and killed during the iron age. Thieves are numerous and rapes are frequent. There are many beggars, and widespread unemployment. Merchants operate corrupt businesses. Diseases, rates, and foul substances plague the populace. Water is lacking, fruits are scarce. Everyone uses vulgar language.

The men of Kali-yuga seek only money. Only the richest have power. People without money are their slaves. The leaders of the state no longer protect the people, but plunder the citizenry through excessive taxation. Farmers abandon living close to nature. They become unskilled laborers in congested cities. Many dress in rags, or are unemployed, and sleep on the streets. Through the fault of the government, infant mortality rates are high. False gods are worshiped in false ashrams, in which pilgrimages, penances, charities and austerities are all concocted.

People in this age eat their food without washing beforehand. Monks break their vows of celibacy. Cows are kept alive only for their milk. Water is scarce. Many people watch the skies, praying for rain. No rain comes. The fields become barren. Suffering from famine and poverty, many attempt to migrate to countries where food is more readily available. People are without joy and pleasure. Many commit suicide. Men of small intelligence are influenced by atheistic doctrines. Family, clan and caste are all meaningless. Men are without virtues, purity or decency. (Visnu Purana 6.1).

How do you explain that kali yuga has finished? How do you explain the prominence of the symptoms of kali and the complete absence of the symptoms of satya yuga?
 
lightgigantic said:
The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity...

Sounds like those poor dinosaurs were a victim of universal disharmony. I take it you have a definitive proof of this that applies to all 'calamities'.

lightgigantic said:
- therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)

There is zero connection of the first assertion to this conclusion and what the heck is superior mantenance in the universe? Is that an ultra-janitor or something?
 
I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean exactly. I doubt there are any "aspects" of atheism, seeing as how is just means a disbelief in a God(s).
 
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