the illogical god

[Xev]

ubermich:

*laughs* oh, perhaps there is a similarity here as well, xev. to me, the personal issue of race is a duality between displaced bitterness toward the world and paralyzing pangs of extreme guilt. it sounds like you at least have the guilt part down.....

Would you be suprised, my twin, if I said that I feel the exact same way? At one point (yes, I know how fucked up this sounds) ashamed of myself and feeling guilty, the next point I am angry at this miserable, fucked up species for the things it does to itself.

i cant even say i feel akin to him racially--my people werent slaves. they were mistreated, but not slaves. in fact, i think i was quite lucky that europe couldnt fuck with (at least one of my countries) for quite some time. and now theyre an up and coming nuclear/economic power to be reckoned with. ah, that is quite funny. but back to malcolm. rather, i admire malcolm because I KNOW that I WOULD BE SAYING WHAT HE SAID WERE I ALIVE AND BLACK IN THE 1960s. i think the real reason i empathize with him is because he thinks like i do.

Exactly. I empathize with his rage. I empathize with his sense of powerlesness, and the need to gain power. I empathize with the need to protect others.

I know I would be him, had I been alive and black in the 60s.

And now you see, my twin, that my "will to power" has always manifested itself in politics. Perhaps it is a bit of my urge to protect those weaker than myself....

i have to ask, are you jewish? its more of a personal question (personal for myself) than sheer curiosity. the only other person in the world who really understands what im talking about other than you is jewish, and now i wonder if that has something to do with her culture....im actually asian, and jewish and asian cultures are quite similar in many respects.....

Aye. My mother's ancestors were Russian Jews.

like zoe the best....something sexy about the devil. but xenia's little 'erratically (er, um, erotically?) smeared body paint (just happening to cover all those delicate areas) is quite.....enticing.

all beautiful. all strong-willed, and all carrying weapons. i think you should explore that xev.

I have, to some extent. It is, of course, my fascination with power manifesting itself again. For that matter, there is my Sigrid.

I have a whole collection of these. Reflects some part of my inner nature.

exactly. and yet at least one person has told me that he thinks this way. i dont know if hes fucked up in the head, trying to impress me, or just too stupid to analyze the way thoughts are processed in his brain....

I don't know. Perhaps a lot of people think that way.

SHUT UP XEV! NOW I KNOW YOURE LYING. THIS IS PRACTICALLY A MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY
THAT WE ARE THE SAME PERSON PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SHARE THE SAME BIRTHDAY. dont be offended, but im not sure if i believe you anymore.....

I am not offended, my twin, so long as you are not offended to know that I suspect that this is some nasty little prank you are pulling.

Believe me, I thought the exact same thing. "Oh, he is lying simply to fuck with my head". I don't actually believe that, you would have to be a fucking genius to echo my thoughts so well...before I even FUCKING SAY THEM.....but..well, it is odd.

Thank Cthulhu that you are a year younger...we'd have been born on the same day.

i have to disagree. exploring my character/personality is something i need in friendship. in this fantasy fuck im describing, i think letting the other person explore my character/personality (being fascinated by it i mean) would allow me to establish some control over them, and i do not want that.....perhaps this is miscommunication again, however, if you mean exploring your character/personality for the sole purpose of their learning how better to exploit you for their own sexual desires, to play little mindgames with you to lull you into their grasp, then i agree wholeheartedly. as long as they really, deep down inside, dont care about me...or care about me soo much they want to destroy me...

Ah. I meant that in a very twisted romantic sense. We still differ on some things. Perhaps I still want an ally in my lover. Somone who knows what this is like, somone to fight with me....and somone to also be utterly enthralled by me. But yet with control over me, at least in some things.

Perhaps this is because, as a woman, I am more prone to bouts of romanticism.

But yes....a bit of miscommunication there. Sexually, yes, I should want the same thing...

Emotionally, I am not sure if I have yet given up.

*laughs bitterly* oh, there is something karmatically apropos in that the one person whom i think understands me best doesnt believe that im real....thats funny.

You have the same doubts about me, my twin.

*laughs again* you think youre the only person who thinks this is strange? i bet you anticipated what i was feeling, didnt you?, just so you could establish that seed of doubt in my mind in support of your existence, when all the facts point otherwise. yes, it would be too EASY for me to figure out this is some kind of joke if you had just nonchalantly mentioned, "oh really? huh, my bdays Nov. 10 as well." then i could have figured it out so quickly. but noooooo, youd just had to be the first to assert that im the fake one, and in doing so had to draw this out, and torment me ever so slowly, letting it grow more acute day by day.....

Nooo...I am real. I am sure I must have mentioned my birthday in conjunction with Martin Luther somewhere else....you must have noticed.

Perhaps you are a psych student of some sort, conducting an unethical little experiment involving the internet and society, or something. Or perhaps you simply need to assert some sort of control over another human's personality....

Or perhaps I ought to simply trust you. But, my twin, I am more or less incapable of trust.

yess, i think you know what im talking about when i say i would love to remain an ignorant yet blissful fool...

Yes. I would love that....and yet I would rather shoot myself and get it over with than succumb to that.

i actually dont know if i can make that connection, perhaps its there i just dont see it. i like fundamentalists more because they are so illogical, so faith-based, just an accident-waiting-to- happen if you know where to push them and expose their assumptions....

You sense that undercurrent of violence? Yessssss. That is part of why they fascinate me so.

yes, please explain sometime...

Thank you. We must be sure to discuss this later. But I do not think you should embrace athiesm. In fact, I do not think many people should.

*laughs* if you ever want to be happy, you must lie to yourself. 'happiness controls you.'

Aye. Self deceit is the way through.

you dont? i wouldnt say its an all-time favorite, in fact, i havent seen it in quite a while...and was looking to rent it again sometime... im more intrigued than obsessed with it. the most interesting part is mickey's one profound admission in the entire movie (at least the one i remember)...when hes sitting in the jail cell being interviewed for americas most wanted and he criticizes politics/the media/society in general as those who are truly impure because they do not acknowledge their emotions...theyre always trying to create lies and live through deception...but mickey, god, he repudiates all that shit and embraces his pure, animalistic inner urge to destroy. rather sick, and true as you will no doubt point out, my twin, a lower expression of power.

I love the movie for the reasons you have stated. And yet at the end, he ends up with kids. As if he has moved beyond his animal nature and is ready to create.

Perhaps.

But yes, he is at least honest.

and also, i found the gratuitous violence/incestuous insinuations (between joliette lewis and rodney dangerfield) to be quite funny...thats quite sick, i know. but other people have agreed and i consider them normall......perhaps i just have twisted friends whom i think are normal.....

Oh good. I'm glad that I'm not the only one. I loved the scenes where they kill her parents. Soooo funny!

i hate those emotional pangs/flashbacks that love/infatuation establishes in you. *laughs* oh, but those words, as with all of reznor's lyrics, apply just as much to creating your own existence as they do to love, just depends on whether you see him talking to a lover or to himself....thats what i love about nin....so ambiguous.....and hence so fitting for every emotional growing pain.

Exactly, my twin. And is not talking to a lover a bit like talking to yourself? They are, after all, your idealization.

*laughs* did you expect anything less, my twin?

No. I am still rather suprised that we are so simular, but I expected you to agree.

yes, i call that neediness/guilt/shame/extreme self-doubt....and of course other "scarier" impulses (like the need to destroy) borne from them.

Oh yes. You know self doubt? Self loathing? The "what in the fuck is wrong with me, everyone else is normal and happy. Why am I the only one like this?"

And yes, I do know how the urge to destroy is. NIN is apropos, again:

"i want to break it up
i want to smash it up
i want to fuck it up
i want to watch it come down
maybe afraid of it
let's discredit it
let's pick away at it
i want to watch it come down"

I know the feeling so well. To destroy hypocrisy and cant...to unleash a tidal flood of sheer and utter honesty upon society. It would destroy everything, and also build something new.

I also fear my power....I fear what I can do with it.

Chicago is sooo beautiful...such innovative yet graceful architecture....a bustling metropolis with the
characteristics of new york, except with fewer people (relatively speaking of course.)

Yes. I should absolutely love to live there.

 

[Adam]

Ubermich

I have not yet run through this thread, so I'll pick up little points now as I read through it. If I miss anything, keep that in mind, that I am writing this response as I continue through this thread...

First of all, thanks for your presence here ubermich, you seem quite a smart young chap.

in any logical argument, we assume x to prove y (theres always a basic assumption somewhere.)

Okay, let's consider basic mechanics. We derive many advanced theories from very basic beginnings. Do you mean to say that all our basic mechanical principles such as F=M*A are assumptions? That is, after all, an X which we use to prove Y.

so getting back to my little realization up there: you assume x because you want to believe its conclusion, y. (keep in mind this DOES NOT apply to logic in general, but rather using logic to find a preestablished truth.)

Yes, that does happen quite often. Luckily we have the scientific method now, which tries to eliminate such leaps of logic. Of course even scientists make such leaps now and then.

these absurd attempts at using logic to prove what we intuit (like god for example) are ridiculous.

Here you begin with a false X and use it to reach a false Y. You begin by assuming logic is absurd in connection with intuition. This is an incorrect assumption upon which you base your conclusion, that we can not prove god, using your example. We are an organism which has existed in one form or another for more years than there are seconds in your life. Intuition involves natural responses, perception, and basically every step along our road ofsurvival and evolution. Logic, too, is an integral part of that. Emotions, as I have asserted in other threads, are logical. Our emotions, our reason, our intuition, are based on our survival and evolution. The ways our brains work is based on that. Intuition is a fundamental understanding of the universe of which we are a part. Intuition and logic are, to use an analogy, two sides of the same coin inside us.

a metaphysical truth, however, is not of this world. it is, by definition, and acknowledged by all religious people, to be beyond our grasp of understanding.

I would suggest you are distorting the definition of "metaphysical" there.

Now a little "metaphysics" for you. There are those who would say there is no separation between (if you wish to refer to these things differently) the material world and the metaphysical world. That it is all one thing, but that many people simply refuse to see the metaphysical aspects of this world. For example, to the Scandinavians of a thousand years ago, spirits and magic and such were not separate from everyday life, they were part of it; the same for many peoples in many parts of the world at different times, and even today. So for many of us, the metaphysical is not only completely within our grasp, but is with us every day.

the christian conception of god assumes he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni-so-and-so. but "omnipotence" implies that god is master of everything, slave to nothing. NOTHING, and if you take that conclusion to its fullest implication, it includes logic. so to use logic asserts that god is subject to it, and your all-powerful, unknowable, infinite god becomes limited, defined, and finite.

furthermore, look to the fact that logic even denies the essence of god: he cannot be both omnibenevolent and omnipotent. lets consider a little soul on the verge of damnation, why does god not save hiM?

This entire section rests only on the assumption that the christian god is benevolent. I know a christian who disagrees, who thinks god will smack the crap out of all homosexuals, immigrants, and so on. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that all christians do indeed think their god is benevolent. Then this section rests only on a christian assumption, not on logic. It demonstrates no flaw in logical thought in general.

Isnt god metaphysical?

yes, therefore you cant prove god.

See above about "metaphysical".

Ah, sorry, getting too tired to read more and write more. Maybe another day...

 

[ubermich]

to xev:

oh shit, i thought people had forgotten about this thread.....

Would you be suprised, my twin, if I said that I feel the exact same way? At one point (yes, I know how fucked up this sounds) ashamed of myself and feeling guilty, the next point I am angry at this miserable, fucked up species for the things it does to itself.

it must be soo hard to hate when you ARE a part of the society you are criticizing......i guess im slightly luckier in this way, my twin. if i feel embittered and enraged at the world, i can look in the mirror and know that there is something that separates me from all this shit.....

I empathize with the need to protect others.

*cringes* im not sure what you mean by that. a friend of mine has these "pangs of altruistic idealism" and seems to live off the notion that she can someday change the world. shes my carbon copy, except very fucking optimistic. quite strange. in any case, im sorry, i cannot empathize there. the only people i feel the need to protect as it stands are children, any children. i just want to send them all to a desert island and prevent any of them from knowing the outside world.... perhaps this notion of protecting people stems again from your upbringing: you had to take charge and protect yourself, so now you want to protect others.

Aye. My mother's ancestors were Russian Jews.

interesting. now i know two empathetic jewish (yet "defectors from judaism" ) females close to my age.

I am not offended, my twin, so long as you are not offended to know that I suspect that this is some nasty little prank you are pulling.

*laughs* no prank. perhaps, if i wanted to, i might be able to pull it off, but not at this age and with this limited detective/computer skills.

Ah. I meant that in a very twisted romantic sense. We still differ on some things. Perhaps I still want an ally in my lover. Somone who knows what this is like, somone to fight with me....and somone to also be utterly enthralled by me.

i used to feel that way, up until a couple of months ago even. but im not sure anymore....im not sure about a lot of things.....but i know that if i climb out of this hole THAT is the person with whom i must spend the rest of my life. oh, i definitely still have fantasies about being allied with my lover against the pervasive influence of outside power that controls us.....but im not so sure if that will ever happen. its funny sometimes, hope just kind of flits in and out of your life at the most awkward times....

But yet with control over me, at least in some things.

yes, i want to be normal too...

Perhaps this is because, as a woman, I am more prone to bouts of romanticism.

*stares at you with surprise* monogamy is not only a female fantasy. i never understood why people always believed that men by nature have some visceral, intractable urge to fuck every woman they believe to be hot.

Emotionally, I am not sure if I have yet given up.

no, i havent either. i definitely hate being fucked with or controlled psychologically.

Perhaps you are a psych student of some sort, conducting an unethical little experiment involving the internet and society, or something. Or perhaps you simply need to assert some sort of control over another human's personality....

*laughs bitterly* oh, if only that were true. no, but my emotions are real unfortunately. they hurt.

Or perhaps I ought to simply trust you. But, my twin, I am more or less incapable of trust.

dont trust me. im serious; im incapable of trusting others as well and with good reason i believe. theres no reason you should trust me. the world would be such an easier place to live in if people would stop putting their fucking faith in other people.

You sense that undercurrent of violence? Yessssss. That is part of why they fascinate me so.

what do you mean by this undercurrent of violence? i dont know if this is what you mean, but i have a sick urge to watch them crumple into a sack of potatoes, to just start bawling because the bedrock of their every assumption about the world--god--is either an asshole, or cant be proven to exist. yet i also know that if i really were to see this, i would feel so much for them, empathize with them, while enjoying every minute of their pain....

i think im starting to become a little more twisted in my views, xev. i constantly fluctuate emotionally, and hence my views on society and god do as well. i think im being an asshole...or maybe i just want to be....i dont know.....forgive me.

Thank you. We must be sure to discuss this later. But I do not think you should embrace athiesm. In fact, I do not think many people should.

*laughs bitterly* oh, there are reasons to embrace atheism i believe. it all goes back on how you want to lie to yourself. for example, sex for atheists, if they think about the implications of the negation of god on their sexlife, should be fucking incredible....i was actually going to post a new thread on this here but im too lazy right now...

And yet at the end, he ends up with kids. As if he has moved beyond his animal nature and is ready to create.

i dont think that motherly instinct to nurture has been purged completely from you...

Oh good. I'm glad that I'm not the only one. I loved the scenes where they kill her parents. Soooo funny!

yes, i didnt know if i was just fucking twisted for laughing.

Exactly, my twin. And is not talking to a lover a bit like talking to yourself? They are, after all, your idealization.

*laughs bitterly, again* oh, perhaps because in our lovers we see ourselves or what we would like to be, and thats always hard...

Oh yes. You know self doubt? Self loathing? The "what in the fuck is wrong with me, everyone else is normal and happy. Why am I the only one like this?"

yes. and do you know the feeling "why the fuck dont you just snap out of it, you little pussy! why are you always so 'depressed' like a whiny little shit who cant overcome his own problems. grow up, you pathetic excuse for a maggot..." but no, for some reason, it keeps coming back...always on cue....like a fucking masochistic play you have to perform in....

 

[ubermich]

hello adam.

i was wondering if anyone still noticed this thread....

First of all, thanks for your presence here ubermich, you seem quite a smart young chap.

thanks for your presenced adam, im glad i can honestly say that its a pleasure to read your posts.

If I miss anything, keep that in mind, that I am writing this response as I continue through this thread...

its actually not very long. dont bother reading the last two pages--its digressed into a personal discussion between xev and me. not too much about god there anymore.

oh, and do forgive me if i contradict myself, i actually havent thought of my original post in quite awhile. god isnt usually something that enters my mind...

Okay, let's consider basic mechanics. We derive many advanced theories from very basic beginnings. Do you mean to say that all our basic mechanical principles such as F=M*A are assumptions? That is, after all, an X which we use to prove Y.

yes, and i see where youre going with this. im addressing assumptions/proofs of the metaphysical, rather, of god. i acknowledge in my original post, (and later in the context of mathematics with xev) that logic CAN provide us with answers in our limited plane of existence on this earth, but CANNOT convey answers with absolutely no basis in sensory experience (ie the spiritual).

Yes, that does happen quite often. Luckily we have the scientific method now, which tries to eliminate such leaps of logic. Of course even scientists make such leaps now and then.

yes, this is limited/unreliable when used in the context of knowing the metaphysical.

ah, and below, it gets interesting:

Intuition involves natural responses, perception, and basically every step along our road ofsurvival and evolution. Logic, too, is an integral part of that. Emotions, as I have asserted in other threads, are logical. Our emotions, our reason, our intuition, are based on our survival and evolution. The ways our brains work is based on that. Intuition is a fundamental understanding of the universe of which we are a part. Intuition and logic are, to use an analogy, two sides of the same coin inside us.

im sorry, but i have several disagreements:
A) how can you assume logic is an integral part of our emotions? do you believe logic as we possess it now is as it should be? because thats your implication. if logic is simply an extension of emotion, then there is no way to judge logic as "true" or "false." its simply a feelingand feelings cannot be judged. in fact, feelings are irrational, which negates the definition of logic, proving it cannot be this and is by nature something we learn from outside ourselves. case in point: children, capable of feeling, are not necessarily capable of logic.
B) emotions, by definition, cannot be logical. look at the simple fact that if they were, we wouldnt be making a distinction between the two. we would simply make differentiations on types of logic (emotions or pure logic). and furthermore, there is no reason to believe emotions are logical.
case in point: if i love a woman, and i know she wouldnt cheat on me, and i know she would never leave me, i can still feel distrustful/paranoid about her. that paranoia may stem from experiences with other lovers. but it does not link to her, and logically there is no connection between her and my other lovers. but i still feel something.
C) doesnt answer the question of god. the only thing youve proven, adam, is that emotions=logic. lets assume youre correct, does that prove that god can exist, or that EITHER our emotions or logic are privy to metaphysical truths?

For example, to the Scandinavians of a thousand years ago, spirits and magic and such were not separate from everyday life, they were part of it; the same for many peoples in many parts of the world at different times, and even today. So for many of us, the metaphysical is not only completely within our grasp, but is with us every day.

i see what youre saying adam, but that still proves nothing. the scandinavians, and every religious person today, believe in god through faith. and faith is a feeling/emotion/urge. call what you will, but it is anything but logical. im not criticizing a belief in a god, but rather, attempts to "prove" he exists via mathematical logic.

This entire section rests only on the assumption that the christian god is benevolent. I know a christian who disagrees, who thinks god will smack the crap out of all homosexuals, immigrants, and so on. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that all christians do indeed think their god is benevolent. Then this section rests only on a christian assumption, not on logic. It demonstrates no flaw in logical thought in general.

true. but if you look at my original post, that was not intrinsic to the proof. it was merely an example of one instance (in the context of christianity,) where people assumed something to prove something else. if anything, that proves my point: that unfounded assumptions are key to a proof of god.

interesting talking to you adam. another day then.

 

[Xev]

ubermich:

oh shit, i thought people had forgotten about this thread.....

Just ignore him and he'll go away.

*Yells*

Hey Adam, there's an unholy demonic orgy over in the next room.

it must be soo hard to hate when you ARE a part of the society you are criticizing......i guess im slightly luckier in this way, my twin. if i feel embittered and enraged at the world, i can look in the mirror and know that there is something that separates me from all this shit.....

Maybe. I think it's rather pointless to hate society. I used to, up until very recently.

*cringes* im not sure what you mean by that. a friend of mine has these "pangs of altruistic idealism" and seems to live off the notion that she can someday change the world. shes my carbon copy, except very fucking optimistic. quite strange. in any case, im sorry, i cannot empathize there.

Quite understandable, actually. I think it stems from a bit of maternal instinct, and my upbringing. I was stronger than everyone else, and somehow felt that this made me obliged to help them. And yet I also had to protect myself....

I suppose I simply empathize with the weak, even if I don't understand them. Such as Truthseeker. He drove me insane the way he acted, yet I sensed his weakness and - well, not important.

*laughs* no prank. perhaps, if i wanted to, i might be able to pull it off, but not at this age and with this limited detective/computer skills.

Possibly. I doubt that this is a prank....Ockham's razor and all.

Actually, the thing is, I don't CARE if it's a prank. I don't trust you, but I enjoy our conversations enough to say "fuck trust, fuck the possibility that he's laughing his ass off at this conversation, I want to talk to my twin".

i used to feel that way, up until a couple of months ago even. but im not sure anymore....im not sure about a lot of things.....but i know that if i climb out of this hole THAT is the person with whom i must spend the rest of my life. oh, i definitely still have fantasies about being allied with my lover against the pervasive influence of outside power that controls us.....but im not so sure if that will ever happen. its funny sometimes, hope just kind of flits in and out of your life at the most awkward times....

I feel exactly the same way. I mean, I should like that, but I am not un-realistic enough to think that it could ever happen.

But yes, a man who would fight this with me, who knew how I felt, and did not look down on me for it. One who I did not feel so far away from as I do most people.

I mean, you and one other man are the only people who have ever even BEGUN to understand me. And forget women, no chance there.

And yeah, hope does flit in and out. I cannot quite force myself to give up hoping, no matter how stupid and irrational that hope is.

I think I will, one or two infatuations down the line, I will give up.

yes, i want to be normal too...

I can't, so I've learned to stop having that hope, my twin.

My consolation is that I can fake being normal. For a time. See above? See, I can even tease Adam.

*stares at you with surprise* monogamy is not only a female fantasy. i never understood why people always believed that men by nature have some visceral, intractable urge to fuck every woman they believe to be hot.

You, my twin, are not a normal male. Most seem to. Or at least they act that way.

no, i havent either. i definitely hate being fucked with or controlled psychologically.

Damn yes. And I'm hyper-paranoid about it. I can sense it....

*laughs bitterly* oh, if only that were true. no, but my emotions are real unfortunately. they hurt.

Yes, I expected you to say something like that.

dont trust me. im serious; im incapable of trusting others as well and with good reason i believe.
theres no reason you should trust me. the world would be such an easier place to live in if people would stop putting their fucking faith in other people.

YES! ABSOLUTELY!

I mean, really, what use is trust? Everyone will betray you, it's simply a matter of time.

And then they get angry when you cannot trust.

what do you mean by this undercurrent of violence? i dont know if this is what you mean, but i have
a sick urge to watch them crumple into a sack of potatoes, to just start bawling because the bedrock of their every assumption about the world--god--is either an asshole, or cant be proven to exist. yet i also know that if i really were to see this, i would feel so much for them, empathize with them, while enjoying every minute of their pain....

It can't be done. Their faith is too strong.....although it would be interesting to watch you try.

I get the feeling that if their faith was ever seriously challenged, if they ever had to really question it and allowed themselves to see how weak it was, they would become violent in an instant. Many would collapse, though.

i think im starting to become a little more twisted in my views, xev. i constantly fluctuate emotionally, and hence my views on society and god do as well. i think im being an asshole...or maybe i just want to be....i dont know.....forgive me.

Don't ask my forgiveness. Ever. You do not need to.

You want to watch somone else suffer because it interests you?

Hold the thought. Frightening? Good. Let it frighten you.

*laughs bitterly* oh, there are reasons to embrace atheism i believe. it all goes back on how you want to lie to yourself. for example, sex for atheists, if they think about the implications of the negation of god on their sexlife, should be fucking incredible....i was actually going to post a new thread on this here but im too lazy right now...

It's actually a standing joke here - "athiests are better in the sack".

i dont think that motherly instinct to nurture has been purged completely from you...

No. It manifests itself in weird ways.

I'm actually quite fond of it. I like the link to other humans.

yes, i didnt know if i was just fucking twisted for laughing.

Oh you are, my twin, you are. I am twisted, and laughed along with you.

Although perhaps we are part of the few normal people. Have you ever wondered if it is not we who are twisted, but the vast majority of humans?

*laughs bitterly, again* oh, perhaps because in our lovers we see ourselves or what we would like to be, and thats always hard...

*laughs bitterly*
Or we decieve ourselves about how they feel about us.

yes. and do you know the feeling "why the fuck dont you just snap out of it, you little pussy! why are you always so 'depressed' like a whiny little shit who cant overcome his own problems. grow up, you pathetic excuse for a maggot..." but no, for some reason, it keeps coming back...always on cue....like a fucking masochistic play you have to perform in....

Indeed, my twin, I feel that at least once every day. I had though that it was simply a remnent of my childhood -

"You stupid bitch, why the fuck don't you snap out of it? Why aren't you like everyone else? And if you want to wallow in your 'difference', why don't you do that and just get it the fuck over with?"

I can berate myself for hours if I care to. Luckily, the impulse to do so is fading as my ego is growing.

Adam:

its actually not very long. dont bother reading the last two pages--its digressed into a personal discussion between xev and me. not too much about god there anymore.

Yeah, I think ubermich and I have completely hijacked his thread. Totally off topic.

 

[Adam]

Ubermich

rand creates some compelling arguments (i think) on how altruism coopts the individual, on how its a tool to manipulate you into working for society against what your true desires are.

I've never understood anyone's interest in Rand. Altruism is denial of the individual for the sake of others. How much altruism, then, is acceptable? Well, these ideas you seem to be considering have actually been well covered for thousands of years, and one results of such discussions is Hamilton's Rule. When you truly understand that one idea, it really clarified many things about the behaviours of individuals and societies.

but what will you grow into? another manifestation of society's expectations or wishes for you? insidiously implanted in your subconcious, only to ripen into fruition when you realize the "code of ethics" you're living now is ridiculous? create your own, while you still can.

Just so you know, most teenagers feel exactly this at some point.

you love the fact that you are not logical (youre altruistic)

See Hamilton's Rule.

i actually consider suicide quite "noble," not in dying for a cause, but for having the balls to face the question of god, to step beyond the point of no return and find out of the fucker exists or not--while putting your soul on the line.

I find suicide for such a reason frivolous and wasteful. After all, it is the same as saying that suiciding specifically so you can go meet the Great Hoobajoo Spirit Of Final Spankings And Great Pizza Followed By A Headlong Rush Into Maggie Thatcher's Toilet Bowl is noble. You might as well say it is noble to have the balls to see if you can kill yourself and find out by doing so what the secret ingredient in Coke is. There is no correlation between suicide and learning anything whatsoever.

innate god urge really equals knowledge urge. religion was once our pathway to enlightenment

The urge toward knowing God (if you are referring to the supreme creator of the universe idea) is an urge toward comfort and lack of responsibility. The urge toward knowledge is an urge toward knowledge and improvement. Spirituality and learning were always our paths to enlightenment. Religion was always a way of organising this and peoples' herding instinct for social control.

i dont know if hes won or if i have, but my logic has shown me that the only way to your "pure freedom" is pure egotism.

There is no freedom in egotism or egoism, only limits. The idea of egoism involved acceptance that we are driven only by our own desires. This clearly means you would be a slave to your desires, whatever they may be. Freedom would involve not being a slave to your own desires. See Buddhism.

and what will you do with those systems that dont hold water logically? throw them out, even if they feel right? im sorry, i just cant do that.

I think you may find that most of your ideals are perfectly logical if you think them through thoroughly enough. To say "logic can't explain this but I'm sticking with it anyway, and to hell with logic" is basically giving up on thinking.

rationalism is, well, rational philosopyhy. existentialism is continental philosophy.

Rationalism is the idea that certain fundamental concepts are inherent in we humans, and that all other notions are based at least partially on those concepts. This was popular in Europe a few centuries back, and was thus called Continental philosophy. Existentialism is based more on the popular British notion of the time that all ideas are based solely on experiences. Existentialism is not continental.

im abnormal, shit xev, no one talks like this with people. i dont even do this with my friends--and theyre people i interact with physically.

I think you'll find your idea that you are abnormal is actually quite common. Many people find it easier to have such discussions over the internet or by mail than face to face. Such a medium allows us to collect our thoughts and place them in neat rows of script in front of us, and to recieve ordered responses. And it is often easier to discuss our beliefs with strangers than with friends, as we don't have as much fear of being mocked and such if those standing in front of us disagree. This is all, believe it or not, quite a common experience.

im seriously only living to wait until i get a steady decent paying job. with the money i make from that, ill buy shitloads of cocaine and psychotropic drugs and pass my life away in a listless haze.

I suggest you get out more. The world, I have found, is far stranger and more interesting than any drug. If you fail to see this, I would suggest it is merely because you have lead a somewhat limited life thus far, as one would expect of any teenager.

(interestingly enough, psychology has shown that behavioral therapy can change brain chemistry),

Meditation isn't just silly noises and posture-exercises. You can school yourself to control the autonomic actions of the body, eventually. I spent about three years trying to figure out how to deliberately release endorphines, rather than just let it happen as an autonomic function.

you know how scary of a feeling it is to know that nothing you do and nothing that is around you matters? that nothing is sacred?

Again, a feeling common among teenagers. It's why teenagers listen to loud fast rock music and wear black, for example. Many people learn better, however; those that don't learn better are sad individuals. There is only one thing required for you to make differences: effort. A strong will accomplishes the miraculous.

everyone on this earth thinks sex as an end

That is one massive assumption there champ. I know many people see it that way, but hardly "everyone on this Earth".

*sits back in chair, closes eyes, feels something move inside of him.* i thought id never hear someone say that. i dont know if you meant it, maybe you dont even realize the amount of pain that comes from "why," maybe its just some random stroke of coincidence that bled out of your fingers while thoughts were flitting through your head a mile a minute. i dont know. but god *looks at ceiling* that question has changed me. so much knowledge, so much tormet, from one little three letter word.

Just so you know, my personal opinion is that nearly every human who has ever lived has asked that question. I feel it is the minority who do not ask it.

likewise, you can worship your emotions or attempt to annihilate them. but i cant sit there in limbo. i cant keep my emotions at bay with logic. im tired of that. i know im going to lose to them one day, but ill be free.

Emotions and logic are Yin and Yang. Balance in all things is required. Balance is sought in physics, sociology, psychology, atmospherics, philosophy... all things. It took me far too long to realise that things just work better if I try to see the balance.

how can you say its any less hopeless than trying to reconcile logic with emotion? theyre both abortive endeavors.

Try harder. Think more. Don't give up on reason.

ive tried to see sex/flirtation/the drawn out social foreplay that is the precursor, from a woman's perspective. men, traditionally, seem to be in control.

The key word there is "seem". Date more. Unless you are a blind idiot like TheChosen, you will soon realise we men are at the mercy of women. We get what they choose to give us.

im rather fond of de sade. camus dubbed him a metaphysical rebel, and its funny when you think about him that way. he commited deicide with god and turned around to deify human nature.

I think people make of De Sade a storm in a teacup. His philoshophical comments were light. He wrote in prison for amusement, to say "Fuck you" to the society which had imprisoned him. All his surviving works were relief, comedy, and deliberate vulgarity aimed at those who had screwed him over. To put it simply: He was joking! Sometimes I wonder why people don't look at Mickey Mouse and say "Wow, that's deep man..."

i believe every human, every woman therefore, has the desire to dominate. you cant be human if you dont.

Again, check out Buddhism. Lose egoism. Controlling/power over other people is not as common a desire as you might think.

Okay, skipped quite a lot at this point, it's all more personal business between you and Xev, so on to your reply to my previous post...

A) how can you assume logic is an integral part of our emotions? do you believe logic as we possess it now is as it should be? because thats your implication. if logic is simply an extension of emotion, then there is no way to judge logic as "true" or "false." its simply a feelingand feelings cannot be judged.

I do not assume logic is an integral part of emotions. They co-exist. Emotions are logical. And sometimes our logic is clouded by emotion. I have given much thought over the years to how logical emotions are, and the roles logic and emotion play for us. I do intend to write up one huge-arse essay on the matter some time soon.

No, logic is not "an extension of emotion". Did not say that. However, one can judge things based on emotionas true or false if emotions are logical, and I believe they are entirely logical.

in fact, feelings are irrational, which negates the definition of logic, proving it cannot be this and is by nature something we learn from outside ourselves. case in point: children, capable of feeling, are not necessarily capable of logic.

Feelings are entirely rational, if you consider them carefully enough. Again, I'll cover it all soon. Childrens' feelings are entirely based on logic. If a child cries because it can not see its mother, that is clearly based on the entirely rational fear of a helpless newborn creature which is unable to survive on its own. Does the child reason this out logically, from point A to B to C? No. But that does not mean the reaction is not logical.

B) emotions, by definition, cannot be logical. look at the simple fact that if they were, we wouldnt be making a distinction between the two. we would simply make differentiations on types of logic (emotions or pure logic). and furthermore, there is no reason to believe emotions are logical.

So, you object to the association of logic and emotion based on the fact that we use two different words? Star and Sun. Is the Sun a star? They affect us in different ways, our Sun as opposed to all the other stars. Yet they are the same. Effects differ based on the distances between one point and the next, just as emotions and logic reach us through different distances in the psyche, the conscious and the subconscious.

case in point: if i love a woman, and i know she wouldnt cheat on me, and i know she would never leave me, i can still feel distrustful/paranoid about her. that paranoia may stem from experiences with other lovers. but it does not link to her, and logically there is no connection between her and my other lovers. but i still feel something.

There is indeed a logical connection. Several in fact. 1) She is a woman. 2) She is your lover. 3) You had similar emotional attachment to other women as to this one, and emotions do tend to carry memories.

C) doesnt answer the question of god. the only thing youve proven, adam, is that emotions=logic. lets assume youre correct, does that prove that god can exist, or that EITHER our emotions or logic are privy to metaphysical truths?

I do not say emotion=logic. Rather, they are both integral parts of the healthy human psyche, and both have perfectly rational and logical roots in our evolution and therefore are logical developments.

None of this, and nothing anyone else has ever said at sciforums, proves or disproves the possibility of god(s). I consider the question of god(s) not central to discussion of emotions and logic, although it can be used as an example of course.

As for metaphysics, again I would suggest you ahve a very limited definition of the word. Metaphysical does not mean "impossible to know". It merely means "beyond the physical". Do you know how you feel about Microsoft? If so, you know a metaphysical truth. A simple demonstration.

im not criticizing a belief in a god, but rather, attempts to "prove" he exists via mathematical logic.

This reminds me, there is a chap in North America with a top IQ test score of 216, who is trying to mathematically prove the christian god exists. Personally, I think the guy is a moron, and wasting his time and efforts.

if anything, that proves my point: that unfounded assumptions are key to a proof of god.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that!

I think that, in short, you have described many thoughts and notions which many people of your age tend to feel, although I know most teenagers in my time and place were barely eloquent enough to write their own names. But, well, I said I would post more here, and it was interesting reading. Have fun with your investigations!

EDIT:

Removed the word "not" from:

I find suicide for such a reason frivolous and wasteful. After all, it is the same as saying that suiciding specifically so you can go meet the Great Hoobajoo Spirit Of Final Spankings And Great Pizza Followed By A Headlong Rush Into Maggie Thatcher's Toilet Bowl is NOT noble. You might as well say it is noble to have the balls to see if you can kill yourself and find out by doing so what the secret ingredient in Coke is. There is no correlation between suicide and learning anything whatsoever.

 

[~The_Chosen~]

Adam, that was an intelligent post but...

Originally posted by Adam
I find suicide for such a reason frivolous and wasteful. After all, it is the same as saying that suiciding specifically so you can go meet the Great Hoobajoo Spirit Of Final Spankings And Great Pizza Followed By A Headlong Rush Into Maggie Thatcher's Toilet Bowl is not noble. You might as well say it is noble to have the balls to see if you can kill yourself and find out by doing so what the secret ingredient in Coke is. There is no correlation between suicide and learning anything whatsoever.

Yes, suicide is irrational, don't fall down that path. You are here on earth for a couple of good reasons. To live, learn, love, and enjoy. Then you die When you pass away, you will want to remembered on earth as someone that was loving and kind, as long as you still remain in your loved ones memories, you basically still live on.

The urge toward knowing God (if you are referring to the supreme creator of the universe idea) is an urge toward comfort and lack of responsibility. The urge toward knowledge is an urge toward knowledge and improvement. Spirituality and learning were always our paths to enlightenment. Religion was always a way of organising this and peoples' herding instinct for social control.

For some it is an urge toward a lack of responsibility. However if you change your perspective all that will definitely change. I believe God put us on this earth to live, learn, love, and enjoy life God has given us. God is the ultimate mysterious while being also the ultimate truth. Basically I follow completely through with science and then God is the last link.

Lack of responsibility comes from making God the first link. "Why is the sky blue?!" First link: God made it that way. That is irresponsibility indeed, I believe fully in science.

I think you may find that most of your ideals are perfectly logical if you think them through thoroughly enough. To say "logic can't explain this but I'm sticking with it anyway, and to hell with logic" is basically giving up on thinking.

Yep, Adam is right.

I think you'll find your idea that you are abnormal is actually quite common. Many people find it easier to have such discussions over the internet or by mail than face to face. Such a medium allows us to collect our thoughts and place them in neat rows of script in front of us, and to recieve ordered responses. And it is often easier to discuss our beliefs with strangers than with friends, as we don't have as much fear of being mocked and such if those standing in front of us disagree. This is all, believe it or not, quite a common experience.

Definitely, my friends would criticize me crazy and brand me as a "nerd, dork" etc. if I would talk about intelligent things to them. Most just wanna "chill"

I suggest you get out more. The world, I have found, is far stranger and more interesting than any drug. If you fail to see this, I would suggest it is merely because you have lead a somewhat limited life thus far, as one would expect of any teenager.

DO NOT try COCAINE, sure it gives you a good high but you become a slave to it. I have never tried it and never will, my friend stole his own parents diamond rings and sold them. Sold most of his clothes for it, until I finally came through for him and stopped his irrational addiction. You will ruin your life going down the path of drugs.

But Mary Jane is ok, just don't do it often

Meditation isn't just silly noises and posture-exercises. You can school yourself to control the autonomic actions of the body, eventually. I spent about three years trying to figure out how to deliberately release endorphines, rather than just let it happen as an autonomic function.

Meditation also can be really spiritual. You can numb your pain and concentrate on other things. It's cool, you can relax yourself using Self Hypnosis. We hypnotize ourselves everyday, watching a movie, reading a book, etc. are all forms of self-hypnotizm.

There is only one thing required for you to make differences: effort. A strong will accomplishes the miraculous.

Yep

That is one massive assumption there champ. I know many people see it that way, but hardly "everyone on this Earth".

Just make sure you have sex or I should say make love to someone you really love and care about, especially your first time if you are still a virgin. My first time was with a slut, regret every bit of it. You remember every second that it happens, her full name, her facial features, her hair...ugh....I seriously fucked up there.

Just so you know, my personal opinion is that nearly every human who has ever lived has asked that question. I feel it is the minority who do not ask it.

Ignorance is a bliss, but seldom the solution to problems.

Emotions and logic are Yin and Yang. Balance in all things is required. Balance is sought in physics, sociology, psychology, atmospherics, philosophy... all things. It took me far too long to realise that things just work better if I try to see the balance.

Emotions is what makes life for us so enjoyable and it could cause suffering also.

Try harder. Think more. Don't give up on reason.

Ubermich!! Don't go crazy!!!

The key word there is "seem". Date more. Unless you are a blind idiot like TheChosen, you will soon realise we men are at the mercy of women. We get what they choose to give us.

So far you have made great intelligent points Adam, but this is not. You need not to insult. Men are not at the mercy of women. WE are the dominant gender, WE are the providers, being at their mercy = powerlessness. Be confident.

Women aren't at the mercy of men either. No woman or man are above each other.

Originally posted by ubermich
i believe every human, every woman therefore, has the desire to dominate. you cant be human if you dont.

Yep, everyone wants power and no one wants to be totally powerless. Be dominant towards women, that shows confidence, they will sense your confidence and will be attracted to you. Don't be a jerk and don't be a nice-guy.

Jerks have no respect for women, nice-guys have no self-esteem always seeking approval from the women.

REAL men can take care of themselves.

I do not assume logic is an integral part of emotions. They co-exist. Emotions are logical. And sometimes our logic is clouded by emotion. I have given much thought over the years to how logical emotions are, and the roles logic and emotion play for us. I do intend to write up one huge-arse essay on the matter some time soon.

Emotions can be explained logically, but sometimes they are illogical. Say for example someone loving another when they are continually be beaten and cheated on. There is no logic in that emotion.

Feelings are entirely rational, if you consider them carefully enough. Again, I'll cover it all soon. Childrens' feelings are entirely based on logic. If a child cries because it can not see its mother, that is clearly based on the entirely rational fear of a helpless newborn creature which is unable to survive on its own. Does the child reason this out logically, from point A to B to C? No. But that does not mean the reaction is not logical.

Read up on Carnegie and his books. Humans are creatures of emotion rather than logic. Logic and emotion are intertwined, don't get me wrong, but humans will respond to emotions first, then logic. Say a loved one has died in fire, emotions will take control and sometimes the person may dive into the fire to "save" a dead person. It is not logical at all. So emotions are logical and illogical, more towards logical though, there are exceptions for the illogical.

There is indeed a logical connection. Several in fact. 1) She is a woman. 2) She is your lover. 3) You had similar emotional attachment to other women as to this one, and emotions do tend to carry memories.

Logically explainable, but not completely logical.

I do not say emotion=logic. Rather, they are both integral parts of the healthy human psyche, and both have perfectly rational and logical roots in our evolution and therefore are logical developments.

Yes they are logical developments, how are things developed illogically? It's explained logically but sometimes it itself can be illogical.

This reminds me, there is a chap in North America with a top IQ test score of 216, who is trying to mathematically prove the christian god exists. Personally, I think the guy is a moron, and wasting his time and efforts.

I admire the guy for trying what others would think it's stupid. He has courage and even if he does fail, I still respect him for trying. But I highly doubt he can prove God through math.

Just don't insult me any further Adam, be mature about it. If I did not read this, this slander would fly freely. Meanwhile your post was very well worth reading.

Thanks

 

[Tyler]

Uber and Xev (though Xev and I already spoke about this)......

There's only one point I really want to add to this, I don't truly wish to interfere. Uber when you start speaking about how abnormal you are, you have to realize that you are not in the least. What you are going through is common. Depression, in the least, happens to every single person between 13 and 21. Your state of mind may be less frequent, but is still far from worthy of the term 'abnormal'. I use to pride myself on being different from other people. Eventually, you will realize that we all pretty much share certain experiences. And this is one of them.