the illogical god

[ubermich]

to xev:

keep in mind what im saying to is not an attempt to change you. im sure you have no compunction about living your life the way you do. i think i did a pretty good job of proving the purely logical actor will live hell on earth, but thats just what makes sense to me. if you seriously can swallow the contradiction between your ethics and your judgments on the religious while maintaining title of "rationalist," more power to you.

like i said, i dont expect to change you. i dont know why im doing this: i think its a way for my subconcious to justify the philosophy im living. yes, im kind of a being a sick, parasitic bastard criticizing your way of living to prove myself to myself. oh well, *pats subconcious* ill keep playing with my head. maybe itll fall off, hopefully.

A: Few people have been harmed by altruism.

actually, rand creates some compelling arguments (i think) on how altruism coopts the individual, on how its a tool to manipulate you into working for society against what your true desires are. kinda too long to cite here. it works well into nietzschean slave morality. nietszche's strong v. weak is turned into the creators v. the parasites. actually, the more i think about it the more youd probably like rand. she takes nietszche's soul and adds logic. shes the closest thing youll ever get to rational existentialism, in my opinion.

B: This is my provisional morality. I do not intend it to be my final moral system.

good, youre growing. but what will you grow into? another manifestation of society's expectations or wishes for you? insidiously implanted in your subconcious, only to ripen into fruition when you realize the "code of ethics" you're living now is ridiculous? create your own, while you still can.

n fact, I don't think I'll end up with a "final moral system".

no, because youll keep searching and searching for something out there to tell you how to live when you should be looking inside yourself to find the answers. i have no illusions that my own philosophy will change as well, but i do believe i will choose how it changes.

(Actually, my pride in my altruism - although I'm not sure it is really altruism - is precisely for the fact that it is not logical - yet)

i dunno if i was coherent or not, but thats what i was critiqueing. you love the fact that you are not logical (youre altruistic) and yet you hate people who are not logical (the religious). you hate yourself, then, by that logic, and thats no way to live. if logic doesnt suit your needs, throw it out the window. lie to yourself.

So basically, I am alive because I am a hedonistic athiest. The first time I seriously considered suicide, I decided against because I felt it to be an act of cowardice. The second time, it literally seemed pointless.

*shakes head. i think we're operating from different fundamental "feelings" on life. its funny how your feelings, no matter how much you try to stifle them, return to influence you so much. i actually consider suicide quite "noble," not in dying for a cause, but for having the balls to face the question of god, to step beyond the point of no return and find out of the fucker exists or not--while putting your soul on the line. the only reason i havent shot myself is because im a coward, and have no gun. i dont know what a "hell" may be like, and im not ready to find out. as for it being pointless? ??? life is pointless, you lose nothing. and if, as an atheist, god/hell dont exist, then you lose your consciousness/awareness with your existence altogether. no feelings of guilt/remorse/self-loathing. perfect peace in the ultimate negation of yourself.

Umm, I find pleasure in denying a part of my character....

what? im sorry, i usually can empathize with everyone i talk to about what theyre saying, but i truly do not understand this statement.

I hope very much that you do not feel the self-hatred that I do.

dont hate yourself, you have red hair now *points to your avatar* lol. seriously though, i think similar in this self-hatred respect. im just sick of it, and im going to turn it loose on the world.

 

[GB-GIL Trans-global]

Re: Tyler, a thing which just is infinite.

Originally posted by Amp
'God' always was, is and continues to be. Time was not and 'God' was. None of that is relavant to you methinks. And you guys can pronounce moral judgements on 'God' if you want to, I know 'God' does care about children. Why should I tell you how you would not believe me either way or you would give an alternative explanation which fits your belief system. Ripley.

Your God is a fucking asshole.

I have an illness called Ulcerative Colitis. Ulcerative Colitis is an immune disease of the colon (not the punctuation mark, the part of the digestive system) in which white cells attack the colon. This is definetely NOT a genetic disease, it can occur quite randomly.

Often, I SHIT BLOOD, which is a most unpleasant feeling. I also suffer immense abdominal pain during a bowel movement as well as for quite some time after, and sometimes inbetween bowel movements. My shit is runny, sometimes the consistancy of a (and the same color) CAPPUCINO, sometimes the consistancy of CHOCOLATE PUDDING.

However these symptoms are only present when I'm having a flareup (which is quite often, random, and uncontrollable). Also, to try to get the disease into remission, I have to take steroids (no, not anabolic) that make me TIRED, RAVENOUSLY HUNGRY, HOT, give me HEADACHES, slow down my METABOLISM, and QUITE A BIT MORE (if I don't take 3 huge calcium tablets a day [and I mean HUGE, about 1CM diameter], I'm at a very, very, very, very, very, very, very high risk of getting osteoperosis or some other disease as a result of weak bones)

Generally, when I'm on these steroids I gain 2-3 KILOS A WEEK (that's 3-5 pounds, kiddies) for the first couple weeks and 1-2 KILOS A WEEK AFTER THAT. It isn't pleasant.

And you can't say God does this to me because I'm an Atheist, I know plenty of others my age (also older and younger) with the same condition, many of whom are highly religious CHRISTIANS that ask forgiveness for their sins quite often.

Also, I don't think that you can say God does this to me because I'm an Atheist as I'm a child (by most people's definition, Tyler is as well, but that's borderline).

Just wondering, does it say anywhere that God doesn't send those who deserve to go to hell to hell if they're not yet adults in the Christian community? I don't think it does. However, in Islam, if you're under 13 and you die, no matter how much you sinned (whether you were a murderer, didn't believe in God, raped thousands, or anything like that) in life you get to go to heaven.

My mother (also an Atheist) suggested that perhaps God doesn't REALLY send ANYBODY to hell-- perhaps it is just a ploy to make us behave while we are on Earth, and everybody gets to go to heaven and bask in his glory. Personally, if this were true when I got to heaven I would try quite a few times to murder God or to make Him suffer as much as possible, for he has made me suffer (what do you call randomness? he surely has no reason not to "interfere" with the destinies he decides if it's random?) in life, as well as the sufferings of others. I have no doubt that countless billions of humans have tried to murder God if he does in fact exist (and so does heaven), as God is an evil fucking asshole pussy shit dickhead dildo-face motherfucking fatherraping embryoeating cum-sucking penis-licking flesh-eating son of a bitch.

 

[Tyler]

I'm beginning to enjoy your posts more and more ubermich, keep 'em up.


"actually, as you've already pointed out tyler, i would probably say something like, "what in the hell are you talking about, freak?" because id have no clue what a "god" is."

I've decided to rephrase the whole nature thing (which I will debate iwth you next). We are born (in my view) with no knowledge of a god. We are born with no belief in god. We, obviously, can never return to having no knowledge of god. But we can return to (never leave) having no beleif in god.


"let's be as vague and general as possible : "what if we're born with a nebulous concept of a metaphysical being greater than any human?" sure, it may sound ridiculous, but what do all mythologies and "religions" around the world have in common? absolutely nothing, but a belief in a higher power. we cant know if any of these beliefs are true, the only thing we can intuit is that there must be some kind of inveterate, maybe even instinctual human NEED to believe in a "god."if we consider that, then it seems possible that the clean-slate kid will have a belief/urge to believe in a higher being"

Your last sentance of the post is important in that there is no way to prove this. I can point to science and logic and you can clearly state that god would be above this. Still, it's worth looking into which is more logical, no?

Humans are born with a need for god. Er....that is, a need for knowledge. Our intelligence gives us the drive for knowledge. Since the beginning of our species man has done everything in his power (unless put down by religion!) to understand his surroundings and self. The first 'religions' were in human tribes where the leader of a group (shaman) was believed to have spiritual powers. Now, I can't prove this but due to the fact that a shamans main 'power' was to help the dead reach the next world I beleive early 'religions' came from man's desire to know what happens when a person dies. Man seeks explinations for what he doesn't know, and death seems like an obvious place to start.

Man seeks knowledge. For the first few thousands of years we didn't have the science to answer most of our questions. So, people who couldn't accept this simply invented god as a title for every question we couldn't answer. Our search for knowledge thousands of years ago produced god. Ironically enough, our god today hinders our search for knowledge.


"it seems to me that youre confusing the negation of something with an ignorance of it:
in your world: there's nothing at birth, and you add god.
im suggesting you have god at birth, and you add characteristics
if my suggestion is correct, then it might be said that youve merely seen the characteristics christianitys drawn up on god, and you dont like them, so youve mistaken these characteristics with the original notion of god and tried to kill him altogether."

I initially choose atheism as a rejection of Christianity and Judaism. Shortly after I turned 14 I discovered this was complete bullshit as Christianity and Judaism are not the only god. I know consider myself fairly well read on religion having read in addition to Christian and Jewish texts, the Qu'ran and Buddhist texts and works on other religion past and present. My atheism is no longer a rejection of all religions, as that would be as large a leap of faith as theism.

 

[Xev]

ubermich:

like i said, i dont expect to change you. i dont know why im doing this: i think its a way for my subconcious to justify the philosophy im living. yes, im kind of a being a sick, parasitic bastard criticizing your way of living to prove myself to myself. oh well, *pats subconcious* ill keep playing with my head. maybe itll fall off, hopefully.

Honest criticism is the highest form of flattery, I think. I enjoy talking to you...

Who knows, perhaps a little of this will make sense!

good, youre growing. but what will you grow into? another manifestation of society's expectations or wishes for you? insidiously implanted in your subconcious, only to ripen into fruition when you realize the "code of ethics" you're living now is ridiculous? create your own, while you still can.

You know, I was thinking about this today. In the midst of shopping for something "appropriate" for work, and trying not to think about the horrible light romantic music they were playing...sheer and utter hell.

Anyways, societal expectations are nothing less than intellectual rape.

Society, especially ours, demands conformity, demands orthodoxy.

Fuck society or it will fuck you.

And when you learn, if you choose my path, to actually not give a damn about society.....

Freedom. Pure freedom and absolute bliss. I've only felt it a couple of times, but I am getting there.

no, because youll keep searching and searching for something out there to tell you how to live when you should be looking inside yourself to find the answers. i have no illusions that my own philosophy will change as well, but i do believe i will choose how it changes.

I think you've misjudged me a little.

You see, I was a scientist before I was a philosopher. As such, I still have the desire to test my theories.....

A moral system, a logical one, might be testable.

See, I'm not looking for a way to live, exactly. I'm looking for a testable system.

you love the fact that you are not logical (youre altruistic) and yet you hate people who are not logical (the religious). you hate yourself, then, by that logic, and thats no way to live. if logic doesnt suit your needs, throw it out the window. lie to yourself.

I don't hate the religious. They've made a choice that I decided not to make.

I despise the stupid, however.

*shakes head. i think we're operating from different fundamental "feelings" on life. its funny how your feelings, no matter how much you try to stifle them, return to influence you so much. i actually consider suicide quite "noble," not in dying for a cause, but for having the balls to face the question of god, to step beyond the point of no return and find out of the fucker exists or not--while putting your soul on the line. the only reason i havent shot myself is because im a coward, and have no gun. i dont know what a "hell" may be like, and im not ready to find out. as for it being pointless? ??? life is pointless, you lose nothing. and if, as an atheist, god/hell dont exist, then you lose your consciousness/awareness with your existence altogether. no feelings of guilt/remorse/self-loathing. perfect peace in the ultimate negation of yourself.

You do not find life at all enjoyable?

Yes, we are looking at the problem from different angles.

dont hate yourself, you have red hair now *points to your avatar* lol. seriously though, i think similar in this self-hatred respect. im just sick of it, and im going to turn it loose on the world.

Meh, fuck the world. Learn to live without it.
Do you ever walk through a crowded street or shopping mall and feel an extreme - seperation from all the other humans?

I'm learning to accept my seperation, my abnormality.

And learning to find in it a certain, superiority. Perhaps that's simply my ego talking, but I have no problem with being an egotist.

 

[ubermich]

to tyler:

I'm beginning to enjoy your posts more and more ubermich, keep 'em up.

i like your posts too, tyler. especially when i found out you were only about two years younger than i am. now, i laugh thinking about you, me, and nelson as "philosophers." were just kids. youll probably be offended to think of yourself in the same league as nelson, but i think were all in the same boat as precocious yet naive kiddies. only difference is nelson puts more faith in belief, i (and you i think) put more faith in reason.

btw, feel free to comment on my posts to xev. im interested in what you think about my "personal philosophy." you remind me of myself. it really stems from bad "drug" habits/depression/cognitive-behavioral disorders that warped my sense of "duty" to any religious ideals or to the people i love. perhaps you know what im talking about, being a teenager and all. and one in canada at that

Humans are born with a need for god. Er....that is, a need for knowledge. . .
Man seeks knowledge. For the first few thousands of years we didn't have the science to answer most of our questions. So, people who couldn't accept this simply invented god as a title for every question we couldn't answer. Our search for knowledge thousands of years ago produced god. Ironically enough, our god today hinders our search for knowledge.

interesting way to phrase it. innate god urge really equals knowledge urge. religion was once our pathway to enlightenment, now its become the irrational hindrance, the bastard fosterchild we should now ship back to the orphanage now that the science, our real "son," is here.

i agree with you on our base knowledge urge, (and we both agree this is totally theoretical,) i just assumed more than you did. god, i meant in my last post, is just one reflection of our need to know the world. hes an irrational explanation of all causes outside/unexplained by our sensory experience or a posteriori science experiments. my conception of god was an outgrowth predicated on our urge for knowledge. you only assume the base urge and never believe we look for a god. good distinction, but i think youre still hardpressed to believe that our lust for knowledge will never manifest/evolve into a constructed, answer-providing god as we mature, that hes just some lie that never would have entered your head had you not grown up judeo-christian.

I initially choose atheism as a rejection of Christianity and Judaism. Shortly after I turned 14 I discovered this was complete bullshit as Christianity and Judaism are not the only god. I know consider myself fairly well read on religion having read in addition to Christian and Jewish texts, the Qu'ran and Buddhist texts and works on other religion past and present. My atheism is no longer a rejection of all religions, as that would be as large a leap of faith as theism.

im confused. you seem open to other religions, but you OUTRIGHT reject judeo-christianity? on what basis? faith? being open is i think an absolute characteristic, considering some points of view and totally negating others arbitrarily or because of bad experiences with them doesnt really constitutde "openness." i think you should still consider judeo-christianity, even if it is a big joke. dont let your past experiences with it destroy that.

 

[ubermich]

to xev:

You know, I was thinking about this today. In the midst of shopping for something "appropriate" for work, and trying not to think about the horrible light romantic music they were playing...sheer and utter hell.

yes, muzak i think they call it. supposed to play mindgames with your subconcious, goading you into feeling an uneasy, yet undefinable anxiety in which you think nothing can make you feel better except to buy that nasty blouse with pink and aqua polkadots.

Anyways, societal expectations are nothing less than intellectual rape.
Society, especially ours, demands conformity, demands orthodoxy.
Fuck society or it will fuck you.
And when you learn, if you choose my path, to actually not give a damn about society.....
Freedom. Pure freedom and absolute bliss. I've only felt it a couple of times, but I am getting there.

damnit woman! drop freddy and go pick up ayn. enough already. you're already talking like her.

seriously though, do you see that this is what im trying to do as well? difference is im an absolutist. i embraced logic because thats what mathematics/science/social studies, every "academic subject" taught me was the proper way to learn. yet when i made this decision i never realized i was only a shadow of logic's potential, a pathetic wannabe who shoved rationality under the rug when his feelings overwhelmed him. i stared down that fucker in the mirror and i think ive found a way to beat him. i dont know if hes won or if i have, but my logic has shown me that the only way to your "pure freedom" is pure egotism. like i said, even now i feel self-loathing writing this, but the only way for my soul to be at peace is to follow through with egotism, kill this dialectical evolution that i keep going through. i dont know if i want to grow anymore. i just want to be happy. if that entails "ignorance," so be it. ill be too stupid to realize im a loser. its just the mental counterpart to physical suicide.

You see, I was a scientist before I was a philosopher. As such, I still have the desire to test my theories.....
A moral system, a logical one, might be testable.
See, I'm not looking for a way to live, exactly. I'm looking for a testable system.

and what will you do with those systems that dont hold water logically? throw them out, even if they feel right? im sorry, i just cant do that. its the basic contradiction with the title "rationalist-existentialist." rationalism is, well, rational philosopyhy. existentialism is continental philosophy. these two schools are just that-divergent because theyre too fundamentally incompatable to be compared with one another.

Meh, fuck the world. Learn to live without it.
Do you ever walk through a crowded street or shopping mall and feel an extreme - seperation from all the other humans?

*blinks* what?? you mean theres another way to view other people?

I'm learning to accept my seperation, my abnormality.
And learning to find in it a certain, superiority. Perhaps that's simply my ego talking, but I have no problem with being an egotist.

thats what ive done. im abnormal, shit xev, no one talks like this with people. i dont even do this with my friends--and theyre people i interact with physically. i dont think its uncommon to use this gift of knowledge/curiosity/intellignce, whatever you want to call it, to justify the separation you feel from other people. knowledge is a drug. its like sex, weed, and work. it gives your life meaning because theres something inside of you tearing you up, looking for something to chain down to and establish stability. knowledge is just one more avenue. and as i see knowledge in this light, i have less compunction about manipulating it.

 

[Tyler]

"i like your posts too, tyler. especially when i found out you were only about two years younger than i am. now, i laugh thinking about you, me, and nelson as "philosophers." were just kids."

Every time I start to feel my ego grow I sit back and realize I'm just some wanna-be philosopher with a lot of agression towards idiots. Or my mom does it for me.


"youll probably be offended to think of yourself in the same league as nelson, but i think were all in the same boat as precocious yet naive kiddies. only difference is nelson puts more faith in belief, i (and you i think) put more faith in reason."

I am in the same league as nelson. In all honesty I'm no more intelligent than the boy. Nelson has trouble grasping some very simple ideas, but all I can do is grasp the simple ideas.


"btw, feel free to comment on my posts to xev. im interested in what you think about my "personal philosophy.""

I'll have to read through it all now then.


"you remind me of myself. it really stems from bad "drug" habits/depression/cognitive-behavioral disorders that warped my sense of "duty" to any religious ideals or to the people i love. perhaps you know what im talking about, being a teenager and all."

Depression is becoming all too frequent in society today. For one reason or another every single person I know feels the desire to tell me everything about their life and 90% of them have been suicidal at one point or another.


"and one in canada at that"

Yeah.....us Canucks! Haha! We're actually a very laid back culture.


"interesting way to phrase it. innate god urge really equals knowledge urge. religion was once our pathway to enlightenment, now its become the irrational hindrance, the bastard fosterchild we should now ship back to the orphanage now that the science, our real "son," is here."

It's just the most logical conclusion. The one with the least amount of faith involved. My theory basic only relies on the fact that man is intelligent. Your theory relies on a guess.


"i agree with you on our base knowledge urge,"

Stop right there. The simplest answer is most often the correct one. My theory follows through logically, right? So why go and put a guess on top of it and change it around when there's a logical conclusion staring you in the face?


"im confused. you seem open to other religions, but you OUTRIGHT reject judeo-christianity? on what basis? faith? being open is i think an absolute characteristic, considering some points of view and totally negating others arbitrarily or because of bad experiences with them doesnt really constitutde "openness." i think you should still consider judeo-christianity, even if it is a big joke. dont let your past experiences with it destroy that."

I said in the beginning I outright rejected those religions. I'm still more than open to debate. As it stands I do my families religious traditions without a word of debate.

 

[ubermich]

to gb-gil.

hi dude. is that a satellite reference or something?

Personally, if this were true when I got to heaven I would try quite a few times to murder God or to make Him suffer as much as possible, for he has made me suffer (what do you call randomness? he surely has no reason not to "interfere" with the destinies he decides if it's random?) in life, as well as the sufferings of others. I have no doubt that countless billions of humans have tried to murder God if he does in fact exist (and so does heaven), as God is an evil fucking asshole pussy shit dickhead dildo-face motherfucking fatherraping embryoeating cum-sucking penis-licking flesh-eating son of a bitch.

*rofl. (no, actually smiling wryly, but its the biggest, most unwry wry smile youll ever see, -- er imagine.)

yes, many have tried to murder him. theyre called philosophers. but i love the picture you've painted.

peter: soul 1835602AD5. name (insert your name here.)

gb-gil: what? what the fuck? im supposed to be in hell! or at least limbo! im atheist!

peter: um, no, poor boy. sorry, thats a lie we helped the church formulate so god's little experiment on earth wouldnt self-destruct so quickly. go have a beer now. here's angel hannah, very tight ass, as you can see. shell be helping you with your clothes----

gb-gil: what? you mean you have no remorse about lying to billions of people over a period of 2000 years?

peter: um, no.

*gil pulls out a semi-automatic. unloads a couple of warning shots.
gb-gil: whom do you think you are motherfuckers? immortals?!!

peter: code red! code red! escort god to bunker AR4, mike. and lock the doors!

*two bullets hit peter in the chest. he goes down. hannah and the other hot angels are running. gil, his eyes now bloodshot with blind, raging fury, inserts another magazine and heads out.

-----------------
ah, sounds like you have a new first person shooter game on your hands, gil. go find the people at id software and sell it to them, before some one else thinks of this!

 

[Tyler]

"damnit woman! drop freddy and go pick up ayn. enough already. you're already talking like her."

I'm afraid I may be partially responsible for this!


"Anyways, societal expectations are nothing less than intellectual rape.
Society, especially ours, demands conformity, demands orthodoxy.
Fuck society or it will fuck you.
And when you learn, if you choose my path, to actually not give a damn about society.....
Freedom. Pure freedom and absolute bliss. I've only felt it a couple of times, but I am getting there."

I'd like to go off of what Xev said. There was a point in my life about 9 months ago or so where I was severly, severly depressed and basically felt like killing myself every other minute. One night I was sitting on the edge of my bed at about 4 in the morning and for the last few months I had had this heavy feeling on my chest which was basically; "schoolwomensportsparentsdrugsphilosophypoliticsschoolwomenwomenwomensportswomenschoolwomen" and the sorts. All of a sudden I got this sudden thing in my head that just said 'Fuck'. And the feeling was gone. I just realized that yes I have no woman, yes I need to work on my hockey, yes I need to start working at school, yes I'm a useless pathetic small insignificant individual but you know what.....fuck it and fuck you because I don't fucking care. My feeling before this; my life is pathetic and it doesn't matter. My feeling after; my life is pathetic and it doesn't matter but so fucking what, I don't care.



"blinks* what?? you mean theres another way to view other people?"

People are drones.


"thats what ive done. im abnormal, shit xev, no one talks like this with people. i dont even do this with my friends--and theyre people i interact with physically. i dont think its uncommon to use this gift of knowledge/curiosity/intellignce, whatever you want to call it, to justify the separation you feel from other people"

You people need to find some offline friends! Haha! Seriously though, I do have a group of 3 others myself who fit into this somewhat, though they aren't all quite like me. It's great.

 

[ubermich]

im seriously only living to wait until i get a steady decent paying job. with the money i make from that, ill buy shitloads of cocaine and psychotropic drugs and pass my life away in a listless haze. of course, ill have to find a job wherein an altered mental state plays no importance. i think ill become a philosophy prof. and write books. that way, when im stoned, people will just think im tapping into some sort of platonic truth and praise me as a philosopher king. hahahah

as for offline friends? they dont exist. its kind of hard when you live in middle-class suburbia with the most astute at playing "docile body." and when you go to a strict, catholic all-boys school with students who couldnt philosophize their way out of a box if they wanted to.

 

[Xev]

Tyler:

Every time I start to feel my ego grow I sit back and realize I'm just some wanna-be philosopher with a lot of agression towards idiots. Or my mom does it for me.

Let the fucking thing grow.

See, I hate myself for saying this, I hate appealing to age, but both ubermich and I are two years older than you. And we are trying to learn to become more egotistical.

You have a two year advantage on us.

ubermich:

yes, muzak i think they call it. supposed to play mindgames with your subconcious, goading you into feeling an uneasy, yet undefinable anxiety in which you think nothing can make you feel better except to buy that nasty blouse with pink and aqua polkadots.

*Sniffles*
3 hours of NIN and Moev and I am recovered from the Muzak.

It was actually lovey country music shit.

Not fun. Not fun at all.

damnit woman! drop freddy and go pick up ayn. enough already. you're already talking like her.

I haven't read her at all, really.

yet when i made this decision i never realized i was only a shadow of logic's potential, a pathetic wannabe who shoved rationality under the rug when his feelings overwhelmed him. i stared down that fucker in the mirror and i think ive found a way to beat him. i dont know if hes won or if i have, but my logic has shown me that the only way to your "pure freedom" is pure egotism. like i said, even now i feel self-loathing writing this, but the only way for my soul to be at peace is to follow through with egotism, kill this dialectical evolution that i keep going through. i dont know if i want to grow anymore. i just want to be happy. if that entails "ignorance," so be it. ill be too stupid to realize im a loser. its just the mental counterpart to physical suicide.

Yes. You are learning to "willingly adopt the beast".

I am too. You'll notice my "fuck society" ?

I shall live it. I think this takes a certain inner strength...I think this takes a definite act of will to break away from it.

I think I am up to the challenge. I think you are too.

And I want that utter freedom, that pure bliss of not fucking caring.

and what will you do with those systems that dont hold water logically? throw them out, even if they feel right? im sorry, i just cant do that.

I think I'll be able to. Just a difference in our personalities.

its the basic contradiction with the title "rationalist- existentialist." rationalism is, well, rational philosopyhy. existentialism is continental philosophy. these two schools are just that-divergent because theyre too fundamentally incompatable to be compared with one another.

Perhaps you are right.

*blinks* what?? you mean theres another way to view other people?

Yes. Other people do not feel this distance.

Fuck them.

thats what ive done. im abnormal, shit xev, no one talks like this with people. i dont even do this with my friends--and theyre people i interact with physically.

I know! I feel very much the same way.

Abnormal? Embrace it. You remember when I was joking about sciforums - the less you fight it, the less it will hurt?

W'hell, I am serious now. Embrace it. Accept it and take pride in your abnormality.

Indeed, the less you fight it, the less it will hurt.

i dont think its uncommon to use this gift of knowledge/curiosity/intellignce, whatever you want to call it, to justify the separation you feel from other people. knowledge is a drug. its like sex, weed, and work. it gives your life meaning because theres something inside of you tearing you up, looking for something to chain down to and establish stability. knowledge is just one more avenue. and as i see knowledge in this light, i have less compunction about manipulating it.

Agreed.

 

[ubermich]

to tyler:

My feeling before this; my life is pathetic and it doesn't matter. My feeling after; my life is pathetic and it doesn't matter but so fucking what, I don't care.

every person thats told me this, i think, really does care. as do i, i dont want to, and i try to lie to myself and force myself to believe that i dont (interestingly enough, psychology has shown that behavioral therapy can change brain chemistry), but it still hurts deep down somewhere.

to xev:

3 hours of NIN and Moev and I am recovered from the Muzak.

*throws up hands in exasperation. screams, 'y god! you fucker! y!'* i think for the first time ive talked to you, and hopefully for the last, i want to choke you!!! jesus christ, i didnt know you listened to NIN! you should have told me when you saw my avatar! i dont know if ive ranted about nin with you yet, but they truly are the most philosophical (and hence best) fucking band in the world. ive met three people who like nin here now: you, a4ever, and cactus jack. whats your fav halo?

(watch my luck. i swear this will happen. you will retype some thing like, 'what? nin? oh, i just like that 'i want to fuck you like an animal song. not a big fan.'' i know it will happen, its just my luck. always getting fucked over by the cosmos. )

I shall live it. I think this takes a certain inner strength...I think this takes a definite act of will to break away from it.
I think I am up to the challenge. I think you are too.
And I want that utter freedom, that pure bliss of not fucking caring.

you know how scary of a feeling it is to know that nothing you do and nothing that is around you matters? that nothing is sacred? i think you're up to the challenge of destroying your assumptions. thats why im talking to you. i dont know if you will, thats your choice. but i know i will try to, and i know you will to.

you have to die first to live. but when you do, oh my god, i just know it will be so fucking utopian. it will make up for everything that you've experienced so far. i know im making a leap of faith here: but thats what i mean by lying to yourself. i HAVE to believe this, otherwise i really will pull the trigger tomorrow.

'the way out is through.' nin

Abnormal? Embrace it. You remember when I was joking about sciforums - the less you fight it, the less it will hurt?

yes, im trying. i want to so badly. and i know i will someday. someday ill have no compunctions/ no regrets/ no cares/ no feelings. it will be so beautiful. i wont be human, ill be a cold, calculating, automaton hell bent on destruction.

but you know what? as much as i want to believe ill be happy then, i know i wont. call me romantic, but i think its in our nature to love. not 'fuck' love. but love like you love your parents, your best friends. and when my tender humanity dies, that will die too. and i dont know if ill be able to deal with it. something tells me that love is just the polar opposite of depression/hate. it 'keeps coming from the inside,' refuses to die, no matter how hard you try to kill it.

for example, i love people deep down inside, the ones i care about. ill admit that. i like you a lot, xev. but when i become what i want, that will die. the hope i have that you will find what youre looking for will rot away. as a machine, i will look at you as exploitable resource ready at hand, not as a warm, flesh and blood human being. and you will do the same with me and all the people in your life, when you become what you want to be. dont tell me that doesnt scare you.

 

[Tyler]

Uber I'm gonna say the same thing I did to Cactus when he and I talked about this, stop trying. The more you try, the further away you will be from acceptance.

One day everything will just bottle up inside you and that heavy feeling will get so hgih until....poof......its gone.

 

[Xev]

ubermich:

*throws up hands in exasperation. screams, 'y god! you fucker! y!'* i think for the first time ive talked to you, and hopefully for the last, i want to choke you!!! jesus christ, i didnt know you listened to NIN! you should have told me when you saw my avatar! i dont know if ive ranted about nin with you yet, but they truly are the most philosophical (and hence best) fucking band in the world. ive met three people who like nin here now: you, a4ever, and cactus jack. whats your fav halo?

I absolutely adore NIN.

Love every song on the Fragile. Great Beyond most of all.

(watch my luck. i swear this will happen. you will retype some thing like, 'what? nin? oh, i just like that 'i want to fuck you like an animal song. not a big fan.'' i know it will happen, its just my luck. always getting fucked over by the cosmos. )

I very much enjoy that song....I love its purity and honesty. And I like the sentiment. Is it not, after all, a common desire not normally given voice to?

How's that? Sorry if I'm not going to oblige you on the cosmos thing.

you know how scary of a feeling it is to know that nothing you do and nothing that is around you matters? that nothing is sacred? i think you're up to the challenge of destroying your assumptions. thats why im talking to you. i dont know if you will, thats your choice. but i know i will try to, and i know you will to.

I know. Freddy's abyss.

And yes, I do see it staring back.

You know my favorite word? "Why". It destroys everything. It levels all assumptions.

you have to die first to live. but when you do, oh my god, i just know it will be so fucking utopian. it will make up for everything that you've experienced so far. i know im making a leap of faith here: but thats what i mean by lying to yourself. i HAVE to believe this, otherwise i really will pull the trigger tomorrow.

No leap of faith. I've seen what it's like. It's utter bliss. However, I think that we are seeking different goals.

Frankly, I think you should pursue mine a bit. You seem to seek absolute negation. I do not think that this will bring you pleasure.

Do not renounce emotion.

yes, im trying. i want to so badly. and i know i will someday. someday ill have no compunctions/ no regrets/ no cares/ no feelings. it will be so beautiful. i wont be human, ill be a cold, calculating, automaton hell bent on destruction.

No. Not that.

You cannot be an automaton. It's impossible because you are human, and will always be human.

It's in your genes to feel emotion. It's encoded in the very structures of your brain.

You see, the beast I refer to is not emotionless. That's why I use my logic to restrain it. But it is utterly passionate. It feels greed, lust, fear, hate, love, loyalty....

That's the beast for you. Utterly passionate and utterly egotistical. It does love, but in a very wild and savage way.

but you know what? as much as i want to believe ill be happy then, i know i wont. call me romantic, but i think its in our nature to love. not 'fuck' love. but love like you love your parents, your best friends. and when my tender humanity dies, that will die too. and i dont know if ill be able to deal with it. something tells me that love is just the polar opposite of depression/hate. it 'keeps coming from the inside,' refuses to die, no matter how hard you try to kill it.

It is in our nature to fuck, to love tenderly, and to wish to fuck those we love tenderly - romantically speaking, that is.

For fuck's sake, why kill that? Why deliberatly kill tenderness?

for example, i love people deep down inside, the ones i care about. ill admit that. i like you a lot, xev. but when i become what i want, that will die. the hope i have that you will find what youre looking for will rot away. as a machine, i will look at you as exploitable resource ready at hand, not as a warm, flesh and blood human being. and you will do the same with me and all the people in your life, when you become what you want to be. dont tell me that doesnt scare you.

Yes, it does. But the beast I refer to - absolutely passionate and emotional.

Now why would you like to kill emotion?

What I'm saying is, embrace emotion. Embrace passion. You remember what Zarathrusra says about the lightning and the frenzy? The ubermensh is a frenzy of emotion.

Fuck society. Live according to passion and your own guide, not according to its. A machine? Bull. Sorry, but it's impossible to kill emotion.

And why would you want to? Emotion is what gives life beauty.

 

[Amp]

G'day all,

GB-GIL Trans-global, sorry to hear that you have such a painful condition and also sorry to hear all the stress it is putting you through (from the style of your post) . Have you looked for ways to aleviate your condition? Have you changed your diet to see if that would work? Just some thoughts, the point is 'God' is not punishing you or anything like that, unfortunately we(humans) sometimes get afflicted through no fault of our own. Ripley, a smile is good medicine. Your bitterness and stress does not help you, IMHO, it hurts you more. Even though 'God' doesn't do things actively to us its not disinterested in us, the most I can do is commune with it on your behalf. As your a child, I empathize for you probably can't participate in many of the activities other kids do. Peace be upon you.

 

[ubermich]

to xev:

Love every song on the Fragile. Great Beyond most of all.

i think its called the great below.

"the ocean pulls me close.
and whispers in my ear.
the destiny ive chose,
ill becoming clear . . .
the currents have their say . . .
the time is drawing near . . .
washes me away . . .
makes me disappear. . .
and i descend from grace . . .
in arms of undertow. . .
i will take my place. . .
in the great below. . ."

beautiful. so fucking beautiful.

I very much enjoy that song....I love its purity and honesty. And I like the sentiment. Is it not, after all, a common desire not normally given voice to?

i think i absolutely disagree with you on this. im assuming, the "desire" youre talking about is the raw carnal desire to fuck. i dont think thats what makes the song special, contentwise. look at every fucking song on the radio--every rap artist especially--talks about getting down and dirty, usually very explicitly. to me, nin isnt special in that they address our base sexual urges. to me, its what the believe sex to mean. sex is just a gateway. everyone on this earth thinks sex as an end, when it can be so much more when thought of as a means to an end.

most important line of that song? not 'i want to fuck you like an animal.' its 'my whole existence is flawed. you get me closer to god.'.

You know my favorite word? "Why". It destroys everything. It levels all assumptions.

*sits back in chair, closes eyes, feels something move inside of him.* i thought id never hear someone say that. i dont know if you meant it, maybe you dont even realize the amount of pain that comes from "why," maybe its just some random stroke of coincidence that bled out of your fingers while thoughts were flitting through your head a mile a minute. i dont know. but god *looks at ceiling* that question has changed me. so much knowledge, so much tormet, from one little three letter word.

some people just dont ask that question for some reason. ill never figure that out.

You see, the beast I refer to is not emotionless. That's why I use my logic to restrain it. But it is utterly passionate. It feels greed, lust, fear, hate, love, loyalty....

youve read lord of the flies right? remember how the island changed those boys, coopted their little pathetic attempts at establishing civilization by feeding the worst of their human desires/urges. the "beast," i remember, was a manifestation of those horrifying desires, the most 'evil' within man embodied in an invincinble creature of the night that hunted the boys . . . but it wasnt real. but the boys believed it to be. it had so much power for an imaginary miasma of nasty human emotion. thats the epic struggle for people, i believe. i think goldings a retarded writer, but his content was so acute. those boys could have killed the 'beast' if theyd wanted to, but they couldnt. likewise, you can worship your emotions or attempt to annihilate them. but i cant sit there in limbo. i cant keep my emotions at bay with logic. im tired of that. i know im going to lose to them one day, but ill be free.

It is in our nature to fuck, to love tenderly, and to wish to fuck those we love tenderly - romantically speaking, that is.
For fuck's sake, why kill that? Why deliberatly kill tenderness?

its all about the emotions xev. we really are different, you and i. similar, but fundamentally different. i dont know what makes you tick, i dont know what makes you get up in the morning, i mean what freudian structure has warped your sense of reality, (assuming you give any credence to freud.) i tick off of power/control. im obsessed with it. not that i like it purely. i dont know if i want it or if i hate it. but my fate is intertwined with it so intimately, i feel. do you see that your emotions, your love for people, is just another form of control they have over you? you dont know how hard it is to look at love that way. when you have to destroy a relationship with someone you love and respect and like so much that it tears you up to be with them and to be without them. and worse yet, not to have the gumption to be able to tell them why youre destroying a relationship so beautiful. just having to exploit their weaknesses insidiously, in such a way that they tire of you and hate you without knowing why. and then you--as do they--never feel closure. you probably have no fucking clue what im talking about, but its horrible. and you know what?? when youre at that point you cant learn to live with people. you just have to accept that youre a slave to them, or that you will enslave them.

What I'm saying is, embrace emotion. Embrace passion. You remember what Zarathrusra says about the lightning and the frenzy? The ubermensh is a frenzy of emotion.

yes, if you know this: that you will either have to give in to emotion completely or die in vain trying to stifle it, then why use logic at all. thats my point. i dont understand anymore why botherto use your brain to keep your emotions at bay. thats just as ridiculous as what im doing, and less principled i believe, and im sorry to say. if youre going to be contradictory and irrational, dont even try holding on to some semblance of logic. logic is absolute, your emotions are not. i know trying to kill my human tenderness is ridiculous. how can you say its any less hopeless than trying to reconcile logic with emotion? theyre both abortive endeavors. i just believe mine has an added benefit of empowering the individual. in your system (and what used to be mine i admit), youre but a watchdog, the mediator between fire and ice. in my system, i am a destroyer, something much more divine. i acknowledge you will fail in either role. my philosophy gives me taste of that absolute control im looking for though.

 

[Xev]

ubermich:

i think its called the great below.

D'oh! Stupid of me.

beautiful. so fucking beautiful.

Fuck yes.

"anything at any price
all of this for you
all the spoils of a wasted life
all of this for you"

i think i absolutely disagree with you on this. im assuming, the "desire" youre talking about is the raw carnal desire to fuck.

No. The desire to completely dominate your partner - not simply the desire to fuck as in the sense of fucking -

*Xev realizes the stupidity of her statement and buries her face in her hands*

That is, not simply the desire to fuck as in sex, but to fuck as in to absolutely control.

Or to be fucked in such a manner. Utterly subject to your partner's, ah, will. Utterly at their mercy.

You know much about chimpanzee societies?

That made about as much sense as G.W Bush lecturing on quantum mechanics.....while stoned.

'my whole existence is flawed. you get me closer to god.'.

Mayhaps. Neitzsche would call this feeling part of the will to power. He would also call the desire to express power this way primitive.

It is.

i thought id never hear someone say that. i dont know if you meant it, maybe you dont even realize the amount of pain that comes from "why," maybe its just some random stroke of coincidence that bled out of your fingers while thoughts were flitting through your head a mile a minute. i dont know. but god *looks at ceiling* that question has changed me. so much knowledge, so much tormet, from one little three letter word.

I meant it. And I agree.

It destroys every assumption I've ever had. It destroys every philosophical system I've ever tried to build. It leaves one adrift and with nothing to hold on to.

I realize the amount of pain it can cause, but I also love that little word.

Stockholm syndrome, of a sort, I suppose.

You know that the three magic words are not "I love you" but "I don't know".

Love fades. Skepticism is forever.

its all about the emotions xev. we really are different, you and i. similar, but fundamentally different. i dont know what makes you tick, i dont know what makes you get up in the morning, i mean what freudian structure has warped your sense of reality, (assuming you give any credence to freud.)

I haven't the first fucking clue. And yes, we are fundamentally different.

We may share the same fascination with power, we may share simular feelings, we even adore NIN.....

Aww fuck, all humans are like that I suppose.

i tick off of power/control. im obsessed with it. not that i like it purely. i dont know if i want it or if i hate it. but my fate is intertwined with it so intimately, i feel.

You want power, I want to study and dissect it. I think that's our difference.

No, I do want power, but in a different sense.....

do you see that your emotions, your love for people, is just another form of control they have over you?

Fuck yes. Any connexion with another human being opens you up, exposes you to being harmed, twists you and eventually harms you.

you probably have no fucking clue what im talking about, but its horrible. and you know what?? when youre at that point you cant learn to live with people. you just have to accept that youre a slave to them, or that you will enslave them.

I actually see exactly what you are talking about and it is absolutely fucked.

Oh, I don't destroy my relationships - I wait for the other to lose interest in me.

Maybe I'm just too much of a pussy to do anything actively.

I don't know if you can even begin to comprehend what this is like. The feeling that

"Everyone I love
Goes away
In the end"

The realization that all her relationships end with Xev having huge emotional chunks torn out of her, that the other will leave, or lose interest, or become fed up with your needs....I don't think you can even guess what this is like.

Control? What the fuck is the point of that? I need to learn renounciation. I mean I know that this is the way things are, that this is the way things always will be - I need to learn to stop trying for what I can't have because in the end, it simply diminishes me and wastes my time.

Fuck, even typing this is a renounciation. This is a rather integral part of my character - anything this deep could be used against me.

But the thing is, I don't even fucking care. Complete honesty is a form of complete control - complete renounciation.

I mean, I like you a fuck of a lot. But I'm also letting you into my head because I do not fear what you or any other human can do with the contents. Because, basically, you do not matter enough to me to harm me.

Now this is easy enough online....a bit harder in the mundane world.

A bit of a microcosm of what I can do in "real life". I don't have to lie or hide things because you know what? I don't fucking care.

Basically, I surrender control because I don't need it. I retreat into pure ego - I won't lie to anyone because I don't need their opinion, I don't need them to care about me. I have myself and that is enough.

By this logic, I should stop feeling, correct? Well maybe we both do desire to kill our emotions. Only perhaps they will still continue to exist, to overflow, however egocentric we may be.

 

[ubermich]

to xev:

No. The desire to completely dominate your partner - not simply the desire to fuck as in the sense of fucking -

*smothers face with hands* why is it i get the feeling you know what im talking about (ive mentioned sandm before this), but just comment it on youre own time? come on, we both admit this thread is a 'perfect drug,' give me my portion too

That is, not simply the desire to fuck as in sex, but to fuck as in to absolutely control.
Or to be fucked in such a manner. Utterly subject to your partner's, ah, will. Utterly at their mercy.

. this is fucking ridiculous. i think you dont understand me, then you repeat the sentences riding my brains.

how do you see sex this way? do you know why? if you have this same urge that i do, then im sure you have the same feelings about power, for this sex this just one violent manifestation, a distorted perversion, of our nebulous and ambivalent concerns and fears regarding control. i seriously wonder if we have the came interpretations of power, your being a woman and my being a man.

ive tried to see sex/flirtation/the drawn out social foreplay that is the precursor, from a woman's perspective. men, traditionally, seem to be in control. were supposed to chase women, hunt them down by hook or by crook, copulate, leave and thereby propagate the species. i used to think women were either very demented or very stupid for allowing themselves to be manipulated like this. but of course, it just leads to the master-slave dilemma. whos really in control? she can "give it up" or fuck the shit out of a complete stranger, and thats why she has the real power. i think women are wiser than i am if they see that, im sure your average slut knows it subconciously, but does she really have a fucking clue what shes doing? or is she just a slave to nymphomania. im saying women are in such an enviable position (in this one, extreme example; i would never give up my dick in this insidious patriarchy). and sex, when you see it in through the lens of power, becomes a gateway to exploring these urges to control, that nebulous paralyzing structure in which both the male and female were socially trapped now becomes their way to liberation. in this sex, theres no more ambivalence on power or ambiguity on who has it, becomes power no longer becomes the enemy separating you too. you, with your partner, ally to face your inner urges for control, and you become accomplices in the most sinister and rebellious crime, imaginable. you throw out everything god/nature/society has taught you. you face your assumptions/emotions/needs. you become a god, and in doing so bond with your lover so much more intimately.

You know much about chimpanzee societies?

if youre talking about their sex lives, uh, no, i cant say that i do. not a big fan of watching small, hairy humanoid bodies fuck.

That made about as much sense as G.W Bush lecturing on quantum mechanics.....while stoned.

on an entirely different subject, i realized george w. is a spitting image of johnny carson last night.

Mayhaps. Neitzsche would call this feeling part of the will to power. He would also call the desire to express power this way primitive.

i agree about the will to power. i disagree about its 'primitiveness.' i have no evidence to back this up, but to me this is just one example of your labels being coopted by your assumptions/beliefs. how do you quantify a distinct difference between different manifestations of the will to power? what do you base that on? nietzsches not a big fan of consistency, thats one of his downfalls. perhaps its just inherent in the difficulty of denying christianity while admiring jesus/the jesuits. hard to reconcile.

I realize the amount of pain it can cause, but I also love that little word.
Stockholm syndrome, of a sort, I suppose.
You know that the three magic words are not "I love you" but "I don't know".
Love fades. Skepticism is forever.

excuse me, i know i shouldnt be talking, but this sounds kind of sick. god, you really are a habitual scientist, presumably from childhood, arent you? life isnt some game, or some arcane puzzle, to be mastered. its life. your pain, your feelings, your beliefs are not external variables in an experiment. theyre you. one more difference between us: im led by skepticism, you lead it. and im sorry to say i dont think thats a complement.

 

[ubermich]

You want power, I want to study and dissect it. I think that's our difference.

again, this is the same phenomenon. you exhorted me to embrace my emotions. the irony is, i think i already do, more so than you. i treat my life as a means to pleasure. why do you think i have trouble with power/relationships? becuase theyve hurt me before and still do. another difference: that pain eats at me, but you seem to let it slide. i dont mean that complementarily. therefore i think im somewhat more human than you, because im willing to lie to myself to kill the pain. i dunno, it seems it just bounces off you like water hitting a brickwall. youre going to find your solace in distancing yourself from life and exploring the world as a scientist, im going to find mine in surrounding myself with fawning/conciliatory lies that block the pain. im sorry, but i think my method will bring more success.

The realization that all her relationships end with Xev having huge emotional chunks torn out of her, that the other will leave, or lose interest, or become fed up with your needs....I don't think you can even guess what this is like.

*laughs* oh xev, how you underestimate me. im not going to get into a pity game telling war stories of past relationships with you, but know that i know this 'feeling' you speak of. i know it the minute i look into someones eyes the first time and we both laugh and begin talking about the weather. from then on, it starts hurting and it doesnt stop until youve destroyed the relationship. another difference: you let the other person kill you, i must destroy kill them before they kill me. now its my turn to pull the "i dont think you can even guess what this is like" line: you have to destroy something you love. i shoot the people i love, all you have to do is sit there and take the bullet in the head. difference is, im getting shot too when i pull the trigger.

Control? What the fuck is the point of that? I need to learn renounciation. I mean I know that this is the way things are, that this is the way things always will be - I need to learn to stop trying for what I can't have because in the end, it simply diminishes me and wastes my time

*smiles* oh xev, you never cease to amaze me. i agree wholeheartedly with that statement. our one similarity, ill posit: we both fluctuate between polar extremes on the spectrum of power: from abject despair to feeling the beckoning tug of destructive omnipotence. my proof? look at this:

I mean, I like you a fuck of a lot. But I'm also letting you into my head because I do not fear what you or any other human can do with the contents. Because, basically, you do not matter enough to me to harm me.
Now this is easy enough online....a bit harder in the mundane world.
A bit of a microcosm of what I can do in "real life". I don't have to lie or hide things because you know what? I don't fucking care.
Basically, I surrender control because I don't need it. I retreat into pure ego - I won't lie to anyone because I don't need their opinion, I don't need them to care about me. I have myself and that is enough.

this is the same argument we had a few posts ago. difference is youre now spouting off my desperate musings instead of myself. very well, i shall play youre role. embrace your emotions xev, love other people tenderly, we were born to fuck and to love. *laughs* im sorry xev. this is ludicrous. were just floating around the concept of control, not really addressing it, whining and complaining like pathetic little shits. perhaps our differences are mere instances of disparity in our "fluctuations" on the spectrum.

 

[Xev]

ubermich:

*smothers face with hands* why is it i get the feeling you know what im talking about (ive mentioned sandm before this), but just comment it on youre own time? come on, we both admit this thread is a 'perfect drug,' give me my portion too

My knowledge of S and M is restricted to reading a few (okay, one) of de Sade's novels about four years back and a few paragraphs of an intro to human sexuality text.

Alls I know is my dissection of me own twisted little desires.

So, ah, yeah I do know what you are talking about, but I don't know what you are talking about, but my propensity to dissect and anylize allows me to pontificate about subjects I've not experienced firsthand.

Sweet christ, that was all one sentance.

how do you see sex this way? do you know why?

Oh not all the time. And I have the vaugest clue of why. But I haven't the experience to actually understand....and my conception of sex is rather a spectrum ranging from the standard to the bizzare....and I am babbling like an idiot.....

if you have this same urge that i do, then im sure you have the same feelings about power, for this sex this just one violent manifestation, a distorted perversion, of our nebulous and ambivalent concerns and fears regarding control.

I actually don't think I have the urge to, er, dominate my partner. Funniest thing.

Then again, you don't seem the political type. I am. Perhaps we're simply using different manifestations.

i seriously wonder if we have the came interpretations of power, your being a woman and my being a man.

I do not know. If I may ask, you sound straight. Correct assumption?

and sex, when you see it in through the lens of power, becomes a gateway to exploring these urges to control, that nebulous paralyzing structure in which both the male and female were socially trapped now becomes their way to liberation.

God fucking damn, you are some fragment of my subconscious. Yes, I am imagining you in order to have some sort of semi-Socratic dialog with myself...

Seriously, yes. It was what I was trying to get at when I separated fucking as sex and fucking as a means of expressing dominence.

in this sex, theres no more ambivalence on power or ambiguity on who has it, becomes power no longer becomes the enemy separating you too. you, with your partner, ally to face your inner urges for control, and you become accomplices in the most sinister and rebellious crime, imaginable. you throw out everything god/nature/society has taught you. you face your assumptions/emotions/needs. you become a god, and in doing so bond with your lover so much more intimately.

Crime? Oh I suppose so. We could get started on Freddy N's master/slave morality, or I could simply state that society regards contempt for its rules and regulations as worse than a crime.

A comparison between Whitewater and Monicagate is in order. Real estate fraud is illegal, but white-collar crime is not really frowned upon - so nobody really cared about Whitewater. Having interns give you head is perfectly legal, but it goes against societal standards and thus people focused on Monicagate.

This is more posy of a ring than prolouge, so I'll get to the point:

I agree.

if youre talking about their sex lives, uh, no, i cant say that i do. not a big fan of watching small, hairy humanoid bodies fuck.

Point taken, but one need not watch - read Goodall. Chimps use sex as a means of expressing dominence. I suspect that humans have the exact same fucking urge but cover it up better.

on an entirely different subject, i realized george w. is a spitting image of johnny carson last night.

He's always reminded me of a chimpanzee. I swear, if I ever met him, I would be sorely tempted to offer him a banana.

i agree about the will to power. i disagree about its 'primitiveness.' i have no evidence to back this up, but to me this is just one example of your labels being coopted by your assumptions/beliefs. how do you quantify a distinct difference between different manifestations of the will to power? what do you base that on? nietzsches not a big fan of consistency, thats one of his downfalls. perhaps its just inherent in the difficulty of denying christianity while admiring jesus/the jesuits. hard to reconcile.

Good point. What I meant - perhaps primitive is the wrong word. "Basic" would be more appropriate.

Freddy would compare us to the barbarian who exerts control over others and the ascetic who exerts control over himself.

excuse me, i know i shouldnt be talking, but this sounds kind of sick. god, you really are a habitual scientist, presumably from childhood, arent you? life isnt some game, or some arcane puzzle, to be mastered. its life. your pain, your feelings, your beliefs are not external variables in an experiment. theyre you. one more difference between us: im led by skepticism, you lead it. and im sorry to say i dont think thats a complement.

You are right. It is sick.

As for leading skepticism, I do not agree. It seems an integral part of my nature. So I do not think I am led by it - I think it leads me and I lead it and - well, questioning is built deep into my psyche.

again, this is the same phenomenon. you exhorted me to embrace my emotions. the irony is, i think i already do, more so than you. i treat my life as a means to pleasure. why do you think i have trouble with power/relationships? becuase theyve hurt me before and still do. another difference: that pain eats at me, but you seem to let it slide. i dont mean that complementarily. therefore i think im somewhat more human than you, because im willing to lie to myself to kill the pain. i dunno, it seems it just bounces off you like water hitting a brickwall. youre going to find your solace in distancing yourself from life and exploring the world as a scientist, im going to find mine in surrounding myself with fawning/conciliatory lies that block the pain. im sorry, but i think my method will bring more success.

Oh you are more human than I am. I believe I have stated before that I often feel - quite inhuman.

You are right not to mean that complimentarily.

It does bounce off of me to a great extent. I am not as easily harmed - and you know what? I envy you. I envy somone who can feel so deeply.

I envy those who can become suicidal over breakups. I envy those who cannot bounce back. I envy those who need love. I envy those who can be thrown into deep despair by the actions of a friend or lover.

I feel - oh I do feel pain - but I always bounce back. And my god, how this does scare me.

It's not that I am emotionless. Far from it....

And your method would work better. But - and I believe this is the most perverse thing I have ever said - I realize that your method would make me happy, yet I will not adopt it.

now its my turn to pull the "i dont think you can even guess what this is like" line: you have to destroy something you love. i shoot the people i love, all you have to do is sit there and take the bullet in the head. difference is, im getting shot too when i pull the trigger.

And now it is time for me to say how much you underestimate me. I do not destroy actively, nor do I destroy my beloved - I destroy any chance he has of loving me. I drive them away. I know not if this hurts them - somehow I doubt that anyone could feel enough for me to be hurt by being driven away.....but I do know that it hurts me.

The odd thing is that I would like nothing more than for the beloved to love me, to reciprocate my emotions - yet I do always drive them away. And I do it almost subconsciously - I become needy, untrusting, untrustworthy. I destroy the very thing I want most.

*smiles* oh xev, you never cease to amaze me. i agree wholeheartedly with that statement. our one similarity, ill posit: we both fluctuate between polar extremes on the spectrum of power: from abject despair to feeling the beckoning tug of destructive omnipotence.

God yes!! Only - perhaps this is only my conditioning speaking, although I doubt it for reasons that would likely bore you - my destruction is channeled.

this is the same argument we had a few posts ago. difference is youre now spouting off my desperate musings instead of myself. very well, i shall play youre role. embrace your emotions xev, love other people tenderly, we were born to fuck and to love. *laughs* im sorry xev. this is ludicrous. were just floating around the concept of control, not really addressing it, whining and complaining like pathetic little shits. perhaps our differences are mere instances of disparity in our "fluctuations" on the spectrum.

I think so! You see, one moment I wish to become utterly emotionless, one moment I wish to stop playing the ridiculous game of finding a man to love me, then driving him away....

And the next moment I think that that is all there is to life, and that the pain of eventual rejection is worth the pleasure of love.

*Xev laughs*
So, you are right ubermich, we should become utterly emotionless inhuman monstrosities.

(Do not mistake this for agreement, I shall tell you to love others tenderly if you do)

But we were born to fuck and love.

To paraphrase some poet, I think it was Auden:

"We must love one another and die"

Edit to add:

I just noticed your location. Dallas? Oh you poor son of a bitch. You are soooo out of place.