The Holy Quran

[Sock puppet path]

Care to provide a verse or two in support of your argument. Aside from that men and women are definitely not equal in the Bible.

...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16

Just a few obvious ones

the cow

2:282 O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, etc etc

SAQ

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, etc etc

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.

SAQ 5

5:6 O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.

 

[Big Chiller]

Just a few obvious ones

the cow

2:282 O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, etc etc



4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.

SAQ 5

5:6 O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.

Note the verse I quoted is explicit and these verses are quite ambiguous so for a 1400 year old book the Quran is looking infallible to me but maybe that's because I'm biased.

SAQ

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, etc etc

As for this one usually a woman is expected to enjoy the wealth of her husband if she can get married but if she cannot then her inheritance is equivalent to the male portion.

 

[GeoffP]

Care to provide a verse or two in support of your argument.

Er: not sure what the Bible has to do with your argument (oh, well, I mean I do know why you're including it, we all know why you bring it up, but the convention is to pretend that we don't really know, so...you know; just carry on, I guess), but Sock answers it quite well:

Just a few obvious ones

the cow

2:282 O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, etc etc

SAQ

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, etc etc

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.

4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.

SAQ 5

5:6 O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.

Note the verse I quoted is explicit and these verses are quite ambiguous

Not reeeallly, no.

so for a 1400 year old book the Quran is looking infallible to me but maybe that's because I'm biased.

:thumbsup:

As for this one usually a woman is expected to enjoy the wealth of her husband if she can get married but if she cannot then her inheritance is equivalent to the male portion.

Actually that's completely wrong, as illustrated via SPP's simple expedient of actually quoting the verse essentially verbatim.

My salutations to SPP, who hath made a finer argument than I. If I take away an argument, doth he not leave a better one in its place?

 

[Big Chiller]

Hats off to you for not really providing a reply.

In Islam, women are entitled the right of inheritance.[3] In general circumstances, though not all, Islam allots women half the share of inheritance available to men who have the same degree of relation to the decedent. For example, where the decedent has both male and female children, a son's share is double that of a daughter's.[4] Additionally, the sister of a childless man inherits half of his property upon his death, while a brother of a childless woman inherits all of her property.[5] However, this principle is not universally applicable,[2] and there are other circumstances where women might receive equal shares to men. For example, the share of the mother and father of a childless decedent.[citation needed]. Also the share of a uterine brother is equal to the share of a uterine sister, as do the shares of their descendants.[2]

Wiki

 

[Bells]

Care to provide a verse or two in support of your argument. Aside from that men and women are definitely not equal in the Bible.

...thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16

And?

How many Christians do you see here gleefully declaring that men and women are not equal because apparently, 'God said so'? Last I knew, Geoffy boy there was a Christian and as much as I detest the little pleb, he's not declaring men and women are not equal and should not have equal rights. Nor are other Christians in this thread.

What we have instead is someone who appears to be a throw back to the dark ages making comments such as:

it doesn't, as much as no biology text book states that male and female are equal. "equal" here is meant in the mathematical sense, in that what is to the left and right of the = sign amount to the same exact value and form.

islam and the quran builds society with recognizing what men do best and what women do best and separating each sex to do what it does better than the other.
secular societies mush the two genders together and set them fully interchangeable in any task or position available to a citizen.

in practice both societies suffer from problems, but the islamic model of "segregation for optimization" is the theoretically perfect one. (because it's from god) .

and..

equality of the unequal is unfair.
men and women are not equal. otherwise they wouldn't be called men and women.

I'm sorry, but considering human beings to be equal regardless of sex is "unfair"? This is acceptable to you? Your response to that is to say that the bible also has men and women being deemed unequal?

And again, the response to that is if a Christian piped up and commented that they were unequal, they would also be slapped down and educated about the basic principles of human rights.

This is not something you should be defending.

 

[GeoffP]

Hats off to you for not really providing a reply.

Have you gone mad or blind?

 

[Big Chiller]

And now you resort to ad hominem.

 

[GeoffP]

Well, I did give you a choice...

So, what was it about the answers I gave you that lead you to assert that they were no answers at all? I'm trying to find some common ground here but it's complicated by the fact that your replies don't jive with the material you're responding to.

 

[GeoffP]

And?

How many Christians do you see here gleefully declaring that men and women are not equal because apparently, 'God said so'? Last I knew, Geoffy boy there was a Christian

Just a mo', here: Geoffy boy?

Them's some rage you're wrangling. I thought diminunitives weren't allowed wi'in 'er rules an' all that? Some folks call it a sling blade.

 

[Bells]

Just a mo', here: Geoffy boy?

Them's some rage you're wrangling. I thought diminunitives weren't allowed wi'in 'er rules an' all that? Some folks call it a sling blade.

Let me get this straight.. We have a member saying that he does not think men and women are equal and that it is unfair to refer to them as being equal. And you are complaining that I called you 'Geoffy'? I did not turn your name into something rude, which is what the rules are meant to be for, but somewhat cutified your name for argument's sake. That is what you do isn't it? I am sure you have a macro for 'why she should not be moderator' by now, so PM away. But go on, report me. Don't forget to mention that I also said I thought you were a pleb in my sarcastic reply above, since you know, you seemed to not be indignant about that but more about the fact that I called you 'Geoffy'. If you are going to complain, find something at least worthwhile GeoffP.

Thousand apologies GeoffP.

I regret the day I took you off ignore (the downside of being a moderator). But back on it you go for now. There is only so much of you I can take in a day without wanting to throw up and I am already plenty nauseous.

 

[GeoffP]

Let me get this straight.. We have a member saying that he does not think men and women are equal and that it is unfair to refer to them as being equal. And you are complaining that I called you 'Geoffy'?

Sorry: is the one related to the other? Stick your 'cuteness'. No diminutives allowed. Read, or something.

 

[greenboy]

Here is another one

The Muslim cult, force the women to fulfill only their assigned role by force, the Christian world allows women the freedom to fulfill the role she wants and the men wants, do not force one role or another, we have brilliant women minds and men minds assuming the role they want and making society a better place, any culture or in this case any cult forcing any gender any role developed by men. Is not from God. let me tell you, is segregation for optimization is done by personal choice I will agreed this is a good thing, but is imposed by force to the female gender mainly, and this is absolutly no acceptable, the Muslim religion fail as a religion and they impose themself because there is not other option.

it doesn't, as much as no biology text book states that male and female are equal. "equal" here is meant in the mathematical sense, in that what is to the left and right of the = sign amount to the same exact value and form.

islam and the quran builds society with recognizing what men do best and what women do best and separating each sex to do what it does better than the other.
secular societies mush the two genders together and set them fully interchangeable in any task or position available to a citizen.

in practice both societies suffer from problems, but the islamic model of "segregation for optimization" is the theoretically perfect one. (because it's from god) .

 

[Arioch]

@Greenboy --

The Muslim cult, force the women to fulfill only their assigned role by force, the Christian world allows women the freedom to fulfill the role she wants and the men wants

Correction, the Post-Enlightenment world allows women the freedom to fulfill the roles they want to. Freedom isn't exactly a christian value, it's an Enlightenment value.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Tthe Christian world allows women the freedom to fulfill the role she wants and the men wants, do not force one role or another

This happens to be incorrect.

1 Corinthians 11
9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.

1 Corinthians 14
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

1 Timothy 2
Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

Etc.
Christianity is misogynist.

 

[NMSquirrel]

1 Corinthians 11
9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.
1 Corinthians 14
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 11
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Christianity is misogynist.

christian tradition is misogynist..
I corinthians 11
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

he is explaining the traditions..not the rules.

and it goes on to explain that women are not supposed to be sheep..IE
I corinthians 11
10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless,in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God

it also goes on to equalize man and women..to put a disclaimer, so to speak, saying that those verses should not be used to propose that women are inferior to men.

so then if you really want to take verses out of context what about this one;
14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,

so is this saying because jesus had long hair, he is disgraceful?

then also the final disclaimer..
16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

i think this says that if you want to make this an issue then there is no place for you in the church.

context,context,context..

 

[Dywyddyr]

Hey, I'm just quoting the bible.
Greenboy made a stupid over-generalised claim in his haste to condemn the Quran.
Historically Christianity has made women into second-class citizens (if they let them THAT high in society).
Women are freer now because most "Christian" societies tend to ignore the "rules" and go with rationality.

Maybe we should go find a female Catholic priest and ask her opinion on misogyny in the church?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Hey, I'm just quoting the bible.

and using it to support your statement of his being incorrect.
so in essence you are pulling verses out of context to support your argument..so..back at you..WRONG!

Greenboy made a stupid over-generalised claim in his haste to condemn the Quran.

i was just arguing context..

Historically Christianity has made women into second-class citizens (if they let them THAT high in society).

True..doesn't make it right.

Women are freer now because most "Christian" societies tend to ignore the "rules" and go with rationality.

careful..you may be accused of being a christian sympathizer..

 

[Dywyddyr]

and using it to support your statement of his being incorrect.
so in essence you are pulling verses out of context to support your argument..so..back at you..WRONG!

Nope.
If he wants to over-generalise then so can I.
I was being a mirror for him in the hopes he'd realise.
(Maybe too subtle).

careful..you may be accused of being a christian sympathizer..

Aargh! God forbi..., er, I hope not.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Nope.
If he wants to over-generalise then so can I.

two wrongs, eh?

 

[Arioch]

@NM --

It's called a reductio ad absurdum.