The Holy Quran
- Thread starter EmptyForceOfChi
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this is under discussion, i mean, does animals get judged like humans? there are some proofs that let us say yes, and also, animals are just like humans, nations and tribes, and they have their own social life, like you see in the animal nature shows, and etc... and yes they get judged, while us humans, are more intelligent, and blessed, that we can speak complicated languages comparing to animals, we can learn, we can build and etc... we can find ways, we can controll our instincts like the sexuality needs, and etc... there are series about, the human body, and how does it work and etc... i mean, the special thing, and esspecially the brain and all, it's very special, and allow us to do anything, by training and learning
this is under discussion, i mean, does animals get judged like humans? there are some proofs that let us say yes, and also, animals are just like humans, nations and tribes, and they have their own social life, like you see in the animal nature shows, and etc... and yes they get judged, while us humans, are more intelligent, and blessed, that we can speak complicated languages comparing to animals, we can learn, we can build and etc... we can find ways, we can controll our instincts like the sexuality needs, and etc... there are series about, the human body, and how does it work and etc... i mean, the special thing, and esspecially the brain and all, it's very special, and allow us to do anything, by training and learning
OK, here we are, so this is it. What we are reading here and now is the Voice of a being so powerful It created reality Itself. The God head, infinate power of our Universe. Here, the God head has imparted an insight into the human condition, so deep and meaningful, so enlightened, as to benefit all of Humanity for all of recorded time.
We must remember, this Wisdom has been derived from a Being older than time itself and - a mind more vast than the farthest recesses of the Universe.
Anything a Human mind could conceive of WILL pale in comparison.
Kind Lady's and Gentle Men, I give you God:
He got neither the berries of Sham nor the grapes of Yemen.
OK, I'm observing this. It seems to me, on first blush, that this is being said to a greedy person who either lost every thing or never obtained anything. Either way, this greedy person ended up with nothing specifically for BEING greedy. The act of greed has led this chap to his demise.
So, let's debate it.
Firstly, before we really begin, do we all agree on what this means?
Again, to me, it seems to be suggesting (at it's core). Greed is bad. Obviously the grapes and berries represent wealth. The parable seems to suggest he wanted it all and ended up with nothing. IOWs in his greedy state of being, he overreached**.
Also, we should establish: Is this a Novel insight into the human condition? There's no point discussing this particular imparting of Wisdom if it's not novel.
** note: This is my interpretation of the passage. Does everyone agree?
then it was a loaded question..what is novel for you is not novel to others..
novel = new? (i keep thinking book)
also was it spidergoat that said he read the quran twice?
why can't he supply the material here to discuss?
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Novel, in this case = new.
No it wasn't a request for "new to me (Michael actually)" but rather: Does the Qur'an proffer any novel and enlightening reflection on the human condition that has not been stated elsewhere before? And, as I pointed out to Chi, those supposedly novel insights were also available in other texts, or as folk-wisdom.
No it wasn't a request for "new to me (Michael actually)" but rather: Does the Qur'an proffer any novel and enlightening reflection on the human condition that has not been stated elsewhere before? And, as I pointed out to Chi, those supposedly novel insights were also available in other texts, or as folk-wisdom.
the book is thousands of years old..of course the wisdom has been stated before..
its more like to look for the wisdom that has been with us the longest and still holds true.
I agree, but I think the reasoning behind Michael's question is somewhat more piercing than that.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2700475&postcount=391
that is my point..how can anything from it be new and not resembling something formerly known,? its thousands of years old, how can any book last that long and still contain something new??
then there is the issue of the term 'known'...
Firstly, and again, IF the answer is NO then this is the answer to my question.
Secondly, God can do anything, therefor It can come up with something novel.
Immanuel Kant did.
Lastly, does the stated Insightful position that being greedy is bad (perhaps immoral), meet the definition of being novel? I think a literary search into other earlier Philosophies on Greed is in order. THAT is how these debates are supposed to go isn't it? I was thinking before that the Qur'an appeared to play off (for now we'll say 'model itself after') Biblical Ideals. Greed, being one of the Seven Cardinal Sins, well - it's been written about .... in depth. Not to mention other cultures. Doesn't Buddha speak about greed in terms of suffering? The Hindu don't mention Greed? Doesn't Confucius speak about greed and society? Doesn't Socrates talk through Plato about Greed and the ideal?
Look, Greed is a timely subject for sure. Just look at how the Banksters screwed over society. I even have some personal philosophy on greed. Not completely novel, but, I think a reduced volume of the amygdala decreases fear making risk aversion less prominent in "Titans of the Financial Industry" who through sheer luck and/or reduced moral standing, clawed their way to the top. Small Amygdala would equate to less fear, more risky behavior, screwed over society (well, only because people were scared [there's that amygdala again] into paying the Banksters/Racketeer's Protection Money. Interestingly, a similar shrunken amaygdala can be found in serial killers. The neurological comparisons are obvious and the social ramifications, almost, predictable.
See, so there's all sorts of novel insights into greed
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not so fast buddy..
what about the concept of having wisdom put in a form that one can understand?
i mean there are some concepts our parents try to teach us, that we just don't get, until someone comes along and explains it in a completely different way that makes more sense to us...
the bible (and by default of my argument) any religious texts, contains wisdom in a certain form, not always understandable unless you know what to look for..
hindsite lets you see it better, IE after you aquire a particular wisdom,then you can see how the bible relates to that wisdom.
or are you asking if reading the quran will make your lite bulb, lite up?
what is it that causes that? so then if the quran stated a wisdom in such a way, that it made the lite bulb go on, wouldn't that qualify as Novel?
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The parable could easily be novel and the lesson not. If that is the case, then the Qur'an proffers no novel insights, but retells the SAME insights all other cultures and all other philosophers devised. I.e: There is no special knowledge in the Qur'an.
If that is the case, then that is the case.
And, TTYTT, if I remember correctly, that is exactly what one Muslim here has concluded.
I really don't see what the fuss is about. When people discuss Kant, they often speak about his novel ideas - a new way of conceiving the human condition. The Qur'an is supposedly a Perfect Book that will stand for all recorded history above all other Philosophical treaties. OK then, I asked for one of these treaties. the reply came back, and seemingly said, greed is bad. OK, yes, I agree, that does have some insight into it. All children in all societies are taught to share and not to be greedy. So, excuse me if I'm not really feeling the depth and insight - nor the novelty in the proposed "novel" insight into the human condition.
So, now I would expect that Chi will explain further why this particular nugget of truth was offered as an exemplary of the God Heads eternal and timeless Wisdom.
knowledge you can test, how do you test wisdom?
i think there is a context misunderstanding here..and yes he doesn't like to answer direct questions..i think he threw a bunch of stuff up and that got pulled out of context.
so you blame him cause you didn't have an epiphany?
now this just sounds like you were expecting a miracle..
not saying anything he said had to do with anything...
but of what were you trying to get from it?
The proposition that greed is bad, as was stated in the simple parable, is not novel. That's irregardless of me and any epiphanies I may or may not have had. Not being greedy is an essential social moral taught in all societies. So, epiphanies aside, there's no novelty to this particular insight into the human condition. Perhaps Chi would like to expound on why he used that particular exemplar of the God Heads timeless and eternal Wisdom?
It should be noted that Kant's philosophy can be and is discussed in historical context. The God Head's philosophy, like Kant's Philosophy, can also be discussed in context. The novelty of said Philosophy being of primary concern. Yes, as it just so happens, I was already of the opinion that being greedy is bad. So, the epiphany wasn't forthcoming for this particular insightful reflection on the human condition. That's neither here nor there -as it's not novel it doesn't meet the criteria set. Hindu, Buddhist, Greek Polytheists, Roman Christians, Zoroastrians, Confucians, Shinto, et.al. all of these societies unequivocally state such moral prerogatives. It's a common moral theme - even making an appearance as one of the Seven Cardinal Sins found in Biblical Philosophy.
As I said, IF there is no special and unique knowledge in the Qur'an, then there isn't. Pretty simply really. We're here to discuss Qur'anic Philosophy, then let's do so. Show me something that is novel so we can consider it Qur'anic and discuss it.
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show me something novel. period. whether religious or not..