The Few and the Many: On Death and Culpability

Well you can prove the sanctions worked like you can prove the girls soul was saved.

:)

I never suggested that sanctions were proven to work, only that western nations should not be complicit in the production of WMDs by a brutal dictator. If they had, no doubt you would be crying about that too.
 
I never suggested that sanctions were proven to work, only that western nations should not be complicit in the production of WMDs by a brutal dictator. If they had, no doubt you would be crying about that too.

Perhaps you can look at that statement yourself and tell me whats wrong with your conclusion.
 
You need to look at the Iraq sanctions again, since the UK signed off on them. Definitely witholding food and medicine, even after the doctors kept asking for medicines and showing them figures of how many children were dying. I wonder what you would do if it were your children under those conditions?

So tell me why you support your government killing half a million children but get so worked up over one ignorant mother?

Reported:

Totally offtopic post. sam's inability to put down her problems with the west and address the issues of the thread need to be addressed. It's especially alarming, given that she is a mod.
 
Reported:

Totally offtopic post. sam's inability to put down her problems with the west and address the issues of the thread need to be addressed. It's especially alarming, given that she is a mod.

Why is witholding medicine by a state or state entities not illegal, but by an individual is? Given that the state knows it to be fatal and the individual probably did not?

What exactly is the crime that is culpable? Ignorance or intent?
 
If the parents withheld medicine for some complicated reason that had to do with the child using the medicine for nefarious purposes, perhaps they could be forgiven. Besides that, can we agree that international politics is somewhat more complex than pediatric medicine?

UN sanctions were the equivalent of a court deciding that the parents could not get the medicine. Therefore, sanctions had legal standing, and the parents do not.
 
If the parents withheld medicine for some complicated reason that had to do with the child using the medicine for nefarious purposes, perhaps they could be forgiven. Besides that, can we agree that international politics is somewhat more complex than pediatric medicine?

UN sanctions were the equivalent of a court deciding that the parents could not get the medicine. Therefore, sanctions had legal standing, and the parents do not.

So what is the culpable crime here? Is it the fact that the child did not receive the medicine or that the child died because it did not receive the medicine?
 
In that case, the mother saved her childs soul and her own, based on what she knew at the time. Was that the better choice?

The thing is that whether the child's soul was saved or not cannot be proven for the time being.

We would all have to believe in God the same way that girl's parents did, and we would have to wait until Judgment Day to find out for sure.

This does not seem feasible to do, and certainly not everyone would wish to do it. This is why we rather employ some form of human law.
 
I think SAM's raising of the issue is fair and appropriate. Also that it was wise of Tiassa to respect that and also the original thread's integrity by splitting thread.

The Nestle's company baby formula campaign is a similar issue. A large corporation figured out ways to manipulate 3rd world mothers into using baby formula instead of breast feeding their children. This practice leads to greater infant mortality. The officials in the company will never, ever see prison time. There is no widespread moral outrage only a relatively small boycott and campaign against the company. Best hopes the company stops its practice. Not only is the company increasing infant mortalities, it is making money off of it. So here we have some people profiting off the deaths and reduced health of third world babies
compared to one woman who did not care for her child according to generally accepted standards. Standards I agree with.
Her motive: to do what she thought was best for the souls of herself and her child.
Do I agree with her? No.
Does her intention make the crime seem less heinous to me than people who are making money of child deaths? Yes.

If we as a society are going to aim more rage at those who damage members of our tribe and not give a shit about other tribes babies, we should be less surprised when other tribes do not give a shit about our babies. YET we always seem to react to indifference or anger directed at us from other tribes AS CONFIRMATION OF THEIR BARBARIC NATURE. Never noticing how little we regard THEM as human and worthy of concern or proper care or respect.
 
Why is witholding medicine by a state or state entities not illegal, but by an individual is? Given that the state knows it to be fatal and the individual probably did not?

Despite international law and international organizations, there still is no higher legal entity than the state. You cannot put a state in prison.

A state can be sued, sanctions can be used against it, but this is abstract in comparison to putting a person to prison.
 
I think SAM's raising of the issue is fair and appropriate. Also that it was wise of Tiassa to respect that and also the original thread's integrity by splitting thread.

The Nestle's company baby formula campaign is a similar issue. A large corporation figured out ways to manipulate 3rd world mothers into using baby formula instead of breast feeding their children. This practice leads to greater infant mortality. The officials in the company will never, ever see prison time. There is no widespread moral outrage only a relatively small boycott and campaign against the company. Best hopes the company stops its practice. Not only is the company increasing infant mortalities, it is making money off of it. So here we have some people profiting off the deaths and reduced health of third world babies
compared to one woman who did not care for her child according to generally accepted standards. Standards I agree with.
Her motive: to do what she thought was best for the souls of herself and her child.
Do I agree with her? No.
Does her intention make the crime seem less heinous to me than people who are making money of child deaths? Yes.

If we as a society are going to aim more rage at those who damage members of our tribe and not give a shit about other tribes babies, we should be less surprised when other tribes do not give a shit about our babies. YET we always seem to react to indifference or anger directed at us from other tribes AS CONFIRMATION OF THEIR BARBARIC NATURE. Never noticing how little we regard THEM as human and worthy of concern or proper care or respect.

Excellent example of what I was getting at. What is the crime? Is it the fact that children die? Or is it that the death was avoidable?
 
another dietary example: (I suppose coincidentally in honor of SAM's profession field).

The privitization of school cafeterias and the handing over of children's nutrition to Coca cola and fast food chains. Right as children are developing there 'independent' dietary habits they are getting addicted to foods that will kill them in the long run. Not right off. No cult members behind this - at least not cults as we usually define them but corporate culture seems very cultish to me. Just big business and profit making and a lack of community care. These practices will lead to many deaths. Not so fast as an untreated diabetic child but just as effectively and vastly more cynically.

Is supernatural belief the factor that makes one a real killer?
Have we sublimated supernatural beliefs into thing like profit making (is God) and does this make it less immoral?
 
Is supernatural belief the factor that makes one a real killer?

Yes. Whereby supernatural beliefs are also things like:
"Children have the right to choose what they will eat"
"Everyone is reponsible for themselves"

and more implicit ones like:
"Anyone can change anything overnight"
"Nah, this not so healthy thing I'm doing every day won't turn into a habit"
"I'm in control of what I do and what happens to me"

- Of course, not that I think the broad public would accept these as "supernatural beliefs". But, given their content, they actually are supernatural.


Have we sublimated supernatural beliefs into thing like profit making (is God)

Yes.

and does this make it less immoral?

No.
 
Yes. Whereby supernatural beliefs are also things like:
"Children have the right to choose what they will eat"
"Everyone is reponsible for themselves"

and more implicit ones like:
"Anyone can change anything overnight"
"Nah, this not so healthy thing I'm doing every day won't turn into a habit"
"I'm in control of what I do and what happens to me"

- Of course, not that I think the broad public would accept these as "supernatural beliefs". But, given their content, they actually are supernatural.
I think this is a place you and I have long overlapped on. We both see what one side calls 'religious' or 'superstitious' to be endemic and that there is something facile and even is a lack of self-care in not noticing how widespread superstition really is. Your examples above are barely scratching the surface and under that surface are beliefs held by everyone from the most hardened atheist/skeptic/rationalists outward.

Faith is everywhere.
Mental habit and assumption is everywhere.

And any compacency about how illogical 'those guys over there is' is not really noticing one's self. In fact it is probably an act designed to help avoid noticing one's self.
 
Your examples above are barely scratching the surface and under that surface are beliefs held by everyone from the most hardened atheist/skeptic/rationalists outward.

Do give some examples of those beliefs that are under the surface.
 
The problem with the argument is its simplicity

S.A.M. said:

Why is witholding medicine by a state or state entities not illegal, but by an individual is? Given that the state knows it to be fatal and the individual probably did not?

The simplicity of the comparison is its downfall. In the case of the zealot parents, ignorance is not bliss, especially when ignorance is chosen. Let's think about that for a moment, S.A.M. This was not a choice to withhold treatment. This was a choice to forbid diagnosis. The kid never had a chance.

I confess that I do not understand the notion that we have kids in order to let them die so that we might feel better about how we stand with God. And that's the thing. If I want to be a demolition derby driver, I enter the demolition derby. What I don't do is go get a job as a school bus driver and then roll the thing when it's full of kids. American society, at least, has certain expectations of parents. Sacrificing children to the God of the Bible is so not on that list that we generally call it antithetical. And, to be clear, that is antithetical to both parenting and Christian faith.

The parents didn't just withhold medicine. They withheld every fair shot the kid had of coming through alive, for a godforsaken religious delusion.

The flip side is the question of where one wishes to assume their culpability.

Historically, we know that Saddam Hussein was a bad person. Even as a literary character, it would be hard to redeem him. Have you ever seen footage of the purge, when they read out the names and men wept and pleaded, cursed and fought, and were hauled outside and gunned down within earshot of the next victims?

Yeah. This is the guy we backed.

He was someone willing to murder large numbers of the people he was supposed to protect. The American idea of government, however perversely exploited, explicitly rejects such methods. Our social contract purports that government exists for the benefit and by the consent of the governed.

And no, nobody can justify our meddling with Iran. Don't start.

So no, nobody can justify propping up Saddam Hussein.

I used to think that maybe he was preparing for a regional water war. I couldn't figure any other practical reason for murdering a bunch of marsh-dwellers and then draining the marshes.

One of the toughest moments I've seen a war-dog endure is when retired General Schwarzkopf discussed what may be the greatest mistake of his career; he allowed the helicopters to fly after Desert Storm. And he pretty much knows what his impatience that day cost him. Yeah. That's right. He was irritated with the Iraqi negotiators. He was tired from running a war. He had orders to get the whole thing wrapped up cleanly. They asked about the helicopters, and he said, "Yeah, okay, whatever." The implications of what they were asking didn't occur to him. The possibilities slipped right by him.

How many Shi'a died in the following days?

So here's the question on culpability, S.A.M. What were the sanctions designed to accomplish? They were allegedly designed to disrupt nefarious weapons programs. And those programs did exist at one time.

Do you want to argue that the sanctions were ineptly structured? Fine. I won't disagree.

Do you want to argue that the sanctions were poorly implemented? Do so. I won't get in your way.

Saddam Hussein had already deployed weapons of mass destruction against human beings. He had already gassed women and children. And like pretty much any tyrant, any civil resource that could be exploited for military advantage was being exploited.

So a question, then. Are you like me in the sense that when Donald Rumsfeld reminded us that Saddam Hussein had gassed women and children, you looked incredulously at your television set and said, "Well, yeah. You helped him get the weapons!"

I think that counts as culpability. How about you?

Now if you want to hang the discussion on that point—why aren't Rumsfeld and others in jail for that—I would simply note that, while I understand and agree, we still would not have addressed the issues at hand.

So let's warp back to the nineties for a moment.

What would you have said?

If the sanctions weren't in place, and Saddam Hussein managed to gas more people in the late nineties, what would you have said? What would American and international culpability have been? Enormous.

What would I have said? I can't imagine, to be honest.

I won't tell you the sanctions were right. I won't tell you they were smart, or even decent. Rather, I would only remind you that the situation was not as simple as your comparison demands.

To destroy evidence of a chemical weapons attack, the dead were thrown into a pit in a field and then covered with asphalt. It is these remains which are now re-buried at Balisan Cemetery. But for many Kurds, the attack and what followed stand as testament to the West's complicity with Saddam Hussein.

(Lyden)
____________________

Notes:

Lyden, Jacki. "A Lethal First Chapter in Iraq's Gas Attacks". Weekend Edition Saturday. June 11, 2005. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4695648
 
If the sanctions weren't in place, and Saddam Hussein managed to gas more people in the late nineties, what would you have said? What would American and international culpability have been? Enormous.

Again, does this mean you think half a million children dying from malnutrition is the better option here?

You understand that in a society where obesity was the primary concern among parents, children were dying of manlnutrition and diarrhoea?
 
Again, does this mean you think half a million children dying from malnutrition is the better option here?

I'm not sure this line of questioning is efficient, though.
I suppose you are pursuing your own agenda, and I don't have a problem with that.
However, I don't think anyone can really answer such questions in brief, other than if they are somewhere low on the Kohlberg Scala of moral reasoning.
Those in higher stages see the issue as complex, and questions like the one above simply corner them. Myself, I think I would have to write a proper essay to answer the above question to my satisfaciton - but I really am not motivated enough to do that.
 
if you have then you take on the responsibilty of caring and nuturing them, and if you cause the death of that child by, "faith" or whatever means then you should be help responisble
 
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