The Evangelical Atheist

[James R]

SAM:

Out of curiosity, lets put your secular humanism to the test-

You bought some 20 teddy bears for that teacher in Sudan.

What did you do for the illegal detentions in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?

Oh, come now. This is silly.

What happened in Abu Ghraib and what is happening at Gitmo has nothing to do with religion or humanism, and you know it.

And if you polled the Americans who work at both of those places, you will find that, like other Americans, 96% claim to be religious.

You could also provide evidence for your claim of a better society, considering that previous experiments with atheism have led to worse atrocities than any on earth.

You seem unable to distinguish between politics and religion. Maybe it is a Muslim thing...

---

Also, I note that you have not replied to the other thread recent on atheism, following several people showing up the ridiculousness of your arguments. I sense some intellectual dishonesty in that instead of facing inconvenient facts you prefer to just ignore them and start a new thread on the same topic.

 

[Bells]

And I dispute your claim on the basis that atheists have done nothing to make the world safer or better for others.

And at their worst (one Stalin = 20 million dead) have been far far worse.

I take it you are completely ignoring the atheists and atheistic organisations who are fighting for human rights and demanding an end to the conflict around the world? But I guess they just don't count, do they?

Tell me Sam, what have theists done in recent times to "make the world safer and better for others"? At present the world has seen a theist attack another country and kill over 3 thousand innocent civilians going about their daily lives, and in retaliation, a theist in power has invaded two countries and killed thousands in the process, stating God told him it was the right thing to do. Hmmm, are they making the world safer?

For example, you protest against Israel's occupation of the Palestine, you do realise they are theists, don't you? Tell me, are they making the world a better place? After all, theists are meant to be moral and have a conscience, aren't they? If that were indeed the case, they would have refused accepting Israel as a nation, when it was offered to them by secular countries, because it is immoral to forcibly remove people from their homes and land for one's own benefit. But they did not. And they are theists...

He was already damaged from birth. Just like Dawkins. What happens to these atheist types in middle age?

You tell me? Am I suddenly supposed to start hating my children? Or am I meant to turn into a monster and eat them? You know, since "atheist types" like me are not meant to have any moral fibre or know the difference between right and wrong.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

As incidental as Islam in suicide bombers.

As incidental as it was in Mussolini, Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Jong

You have evidence that atheists can do horrible things.
Do you still see no evidence that atheists can develop or have ethical principles that you would approve of?

You need to associate with more atheists in person. My father is one of the most ethical people I know and he is about as atheist as it goes. My circles overlap religious people and atheists and I cannot pick the group that is more ethical.

 

[(Q)]

As incidental as it was in Mussolini, Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Jong

You know, it's a good thing someone doesn't own the rights to using those names, you'd have spent a fortune in royalties by now.

oke:

 

[KennyJC]

Sam has a hard-on for atheists with power in dictatorial fascist regimes. How about we simply observe the behavior of both theists and atheists in a free society. I see no atheists in free societies making the front pages of news papers... :shrug:

 

[phlogistician]

I recall the Pope opposing the war.

Well, the previous one he was involved in, as part of the Hitler Youth Movement, didn't go so well for his side. Maybe he's learned his lesson?

 

[phlogistician]

You could also provide evidence for your claim of a better society, considering that previous experiments with atheism have led to worse atrocities than any on earth.

I challenge you to provide historical evidence that there has ever been an atrocity committed in the name of atheism.

You need to separate polical movements, from religious ones, or you are being dishonest.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

And I dispute your claim on the basis that atheists have done nothing to make the world safer or better for others.

How would you know? There have never been enough of us to form a society. You can hardly call 150 million Russian Christians led by Stalin (an apostate Christian) an atheist society. Especially since communism is an offshoot of Christian philosophy: just add a new prophet. Christians follow prophets, that's what they do!

And Confucians follow their elders, if you're about to throw Mao at me. It's been pointed out that Kim enjoys such unquestioning loyalty in Korea, not because they support communism, but because they're good Confucians and he's their patriarch.

Atheists aren't so easy to keep in line. We have no prophets and no patriarchs.

And at their worst (one Stalin = 20 million dead) have been far far worse.

We've been here before and I keep having to correct you. One Caliph Omar plus one Pope Urban = THREE OBLITERATED CIVILIZATIONS. "Heathen" civilizations destroyed in the name of your own deity. Half of the six precious civilizations that human beings have ever created. Abrahamism can never be redeemed for those sins.

If the good Christians of Germany had had a little more time, they would have happily matched Stalin's stats.

 

[KennyJC]

How would you know? There have never been enough of us to form a society.

Sweden?

 

[iceaura]

How do you know? Oh wait, because they say so?

And they pray a lot, go to theistic religious worship houses, give money and respect to clerics, etc etc etc.

What does mild mannered have to do with it? Some of the most famous serial killers were mild mannered boys next door. He's insane.

So you do agree that he is not vitriolic, badtemptered, etc, in his public image anyway - contrary to your posted OP ? We make a little progress - - - -

Any scientist who thinks the outliers are the mean is clearly insane.

Dawkins does not make any such error - which would be an error of reason, correctable by reason, not an insanity.

If he wanted to show the effect of theism, why not go to Al-Azhar and speak to one of the Islamic scholars? Surely, by his own thesis, they should be the worst offenders.

No, not by his thesis. You seem to have a very strange idea of what Dawkins's "thesis" is.

How do you identify theists ? Like this ? :

Who is more moral? The capitalist from the urban secular society or the Bushman from Africa?

I don't know who is more moral, but the capitalist is probably more theistic - definitely more likely to be monotheistic with a theologically derived set of moral rules etc.

You have got to be kidding me. Science is the most male-dominated and conservative field there is.

Monotheistic religion beats it there by an order of magnitude. "Conservative" ?

Only because atheists have yet to have reached unrestrained power in those places.

Since when does theism restrain power ?

 

[phlogistician]

And at their worst (one Stalin = 20 million dead) have been far far worse.

Stalin, so he was an atheist, but he did not commit atrocities in the name of atheism, but rather due to his political affiliations.

Karl Marx did not blame societies ills on religion, but saw religion as a symptom of a sick society, that it was a tool used to give the oppressed false hope, and so to maintain the status quo. He didn't seek to rid the world of religion, just to create an equal society, and then religion would be unnecessary. As the father of communism, you cannot therefore equate atheism to communism, and cite atheism as the root of some communists atrocities, you have to blame the political system for that.

So, I re-issue the challenge, show me historical proof of an atrocity committed in the name of atheism.

Here's the thing Sam, I don't count Hitler killing six million Jews as a Catholic atrocity, but as a political one. Let's be honest in our designations, shall we?

 

[John99]

You should do a little more research. The first and most obvious fact is that Hitler went to war with Christianity, he certainly killed plenty of them. But really hitler went to war against organized religion and most likely he used it as a way to control the masses. I have not seen anything that points to Hitler being religious except in his own propaganda, as a matter of fact after childhood Hitler probably had no true Christian beliefs at all.

Consider this fact:

Hitler wanted to create a master race.

Hitler was responsible for what happened to the Jews but he sure as hell killed a lot of Christians too. Some would argue that Hitler became corrupt by what he read and had some seriously distorted views about biology, in some ways hitler really went to war against nature. Just look at the experiments on humans done by the Nazi's, and obviously they are the complete opposite of what is taught in Christianity. But many people consider him to be the anti Christ or possibly a version of one.

In 1942 Martin Bormann who was Hitlers closest collaborator and deputy wrote:

'The Christian Churches must absolutely and finally be broken.'

Not that it matters but the question is - was Hitler an Atheist? Honestly i am not sure and dont think it really matters in this case.

Edit: Like i said, i dont care one way or another what if any religious beliefs Hitler had. It is interesting to discuss but are you sure you really want to?

 

[iceaura]

I have not seen anything that points to Hitler being religious except in his own propaganda, as a matter of fact after childhood Hitler probably had no true Christian beliefs at all.

That wouldn't necessarily matter, in the argument - he used religion, was given power according to his manipulation of other people's faiths, took advantage of the groomed believers prepared for him.

The various evils of religion do not all depend on the sincerity of the evildoer's professions.

Hitler made many statements that seem to reflect at the least a sincere mysticism.

 

[S.A.M.]

I challenge you to provide historical evidence that there has ever been an atrocity committed in the name of atheism.

You need to separate polical movements, from religious ones, or you are being dishonest.

Name one communist dictator who was a theist.

 

[iceaura]

Name one communist dictator who was a theist.

Hmmm. Saddam Hussein ? Gamel Nasser ? Qahdaffi ?

We know that Stalin trained for the Catholic priesthood. But he was power hungry among a revolt against the devoutly theistic Tsarist tradition of oppression, and needed territory. Hard to read minds, there.

How about a fascist dictator who was atheist ?

 

[phlogistician]

Name one communist dictator who was a theist.

See there Sam, I gave you the opportunity to be honest, explained the framework, and still you went for the low blow. That's rather disappointing.

The atrocities were not committed in the name of atheism; religion is the product of a sick society, not the cause of the sickness, and the need for religion would be removed, once society was perfected, that was the plan. Once society was perfect, atheism itself becomes unnecessary, because citizens believe in themselves, and never need to consider a higher power in God, because they collective efforts is more than themselves, and that is enough.

Now, if you keep banging on about the religious persuasions of those that do evil, I'll have to remind you that Stalin was trained in a Catholic seminary, and that Hitler too, was a Catholic. But, like I said, I'm not going to claim that Hitler was inspired to do what he did because of his religion, so please, you must stop banging on about Stalin, and his supposed atheism.

 

[S.A.M.]

See there Sam, I gave you the opportunity to be honest, explained the framework, and still you went for the low blow. That's rather disappointing.

The atrocities were not committed in the name of atheism; religion is the product of a sick society, not the cause of the sickness, and the need for religion would be removed, once society was perfected, that was the plan. Once society was perfect, atheism itself becomes unnecessary, because citizens believe in themselves, and never need to consider a higher power in God, because they collective efforts is more than themselves, and that is enough.

Now, if you keep banging on about the religious persuasions of those that do evil, I'll have to remind you that Stalin was trained in a Catholic seminary, and that Hitler too, was a Catholic. But, like I said, I'm not going to claim that Hitler was inspired to do what he did because of his religion, so please, you must stop banging on about Stalin, and his supposed atheism.

Stalin was trained in a Catholic seminary, yes.

Does this sound like orthodox Christianity?

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed. Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[13][14] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions.[15][16]

Thousands of churches and monasteries were taken over by the government and either destroyed or converted to secular use. It was impossible to build new churches. Practising Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshippers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.

The history of Orthodoxy (and other religions) under Communism was not limited to this story of repression and secularization. Bolshevik policies toward religious belief and practice tended to vacillate over time between, on the one hand, a utopian determination to substitute secular rationalism for what they considered to be an unmodern, "superstitious" worldview and, on the other, pragmatic acceptance of the tenaciousness of religious faith and institutions. In any case, religious beliefs and practices did persist, in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognized its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.[17]

 

[John99]

I read that Hitler was a PAGAN.

 

[John99]

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."

HITLER

 

[John99]

Perhaps DEMONS entered them....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons