The Evangelical Atheist
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/21/ret.afghan.taliban/
Do the people in Gitmo have internet access?
Or religious politics. Which are more visible there than any philosophy at all, no?SAM said:
And you recognise them as "secular morals" how, SAM ? The US share of the bombing, at least, is overwhelmingly directed and accomplished by theistic religionists.SAM said:
Only because atheists have yet to have reached unrestrained power in those places. On wonders what such men of "reason" as Dawkins would be capable of if given the reins of society. After all even Bernard Shaw thought Stalin was doing the world a favor before he went on to liberate 20 million from the shackles of fantasies.
The silence from the rest of the world is deafening, their participation even more perplexing.
SAM, if you like your freedom, you like to wear what you want, you like to express yourself on your .mac then why wouldnt you want the same for everyone?
I dont know. People are actually treated very well in American prisons. The real danger comes from the inmates.
An interesting fact is that there are actually people who commit crime just so they can go to prison. Three hots and a cot and get to see their friends.
No, they are based on reason. Bombing certain areas of Afghanistan was deemed necessary as part of our war on terrorists living in the region. It's not like non-secular countries never bombed anyone. In any case, our secular nation is ostensibly informed by religious values. Secularism has little to do with atheism. An atheist or a religious person could have arrived at the same decision here.
Clearly these people are being provided the full range of freedom of expression.
How inconsiderate of them to disturb the people liberating them.
Those terrorists were also created due to interference in the region. Or do you believe only Americans/Europeans have a right to protest against collateral damages? Who is accountable for the deaths of possibly millions in the last 7 years?
Will the real "terrorist" please stand up?
Clearly "secularists" have killed more people in Afghanistan than any Afghanis have anywhere in the world. Who would want these people to govern their society?
They were religiously inspired. They have a vision of "corrupt" western ways like dancing with girls, and they want a pan-Arabic empire based on Islamic values.
Please don't make this about your pet issues. Secularist countries can make good or bad decisions.
?SAM said:
We have few comparisons to guide us in our wondering, there. Presumably he would grade out as inferior to, say, Thomas Jefferson.SAM said:
So many religious theists with consciences and morals, and not a peep out of them - unless they are political enemies of the evildoers. Is that what is surprising you ?SAM said:
The people in charge of the Afghan War, and the people who set up and are now running Gitmo (as well as the people who captured its inmates, and sold them into Gitmo for money) are religious theists.SAM said:
Thanks for making my point.
I didn't see any point of yours listed in the op so feel free to state what it is. I showed that video in particular because that is by far the most extreme behavior to anything resembling 'vitrol' and 'bad-temperedness' that Dawkins has ever displayed. The contrast between his behavior and the theist he's talking to is quite stark.
Thanks for making my point.
Dawkins is such a mild-mannered and reasonable man, to equate him with some kind of fanatic is beyond ridiculous. Obviously, if so much strife is the result of religion, no one would want more strife as a result of pushing some dogmatic kind of atheism too.
What does mild mannered have to do with it? Some of the most famous serial killers were mild mannered boys next door. He's insane.
Dawkins is a far from insane as it is possible to be. Care to back up your fanatical rant?
Any scientist who thinks the outliers are the mean is clearly insane.
If he wanted to show the effect of theism, why not go to Al-Azhar and speak to one of the Islamic scholars? Surely, by his own thesis, they should be the worst offenders.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Sure, we can say that some of the specific motifs of the various religions are "false beyond a reasonable doubt." But we cannot falsify their basic premise that our lives and all of the natural universe are controlled by unobservable supernatural beings in ways that are not logical. A theory like that cannot be falsified because it cannot be tested. Theists are always ragging on us because we have such weak and puny evidence for abiogenesis. Yet they have no evidence at all for their theory of a supernatural universe.
It's important to make this distinction. We don't dismiss religion because we have proven it false. We dismiss religion because it is an extraordinary claim unsupported by extraordinary evidence. By the rules of science--which have been continuously tested and peer-reviewed for 500 years--we are under no obligation to treat such claims with respect.
Before America became a theocracy and the Muslim Middle Eastern nations became a threat to anybody except the Israelis, I knew lots of people in America who were "secular Muslims." Primarily Iranians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Egyptians. They ran the whole gamut of "secular Christians." Some of them believed in the general thesis of Islam, the part it shares with the other Abrahamic faiths plus the overall wisdom of Mohammed, but they thought the rest of it had to be regarded as medieval and needed to be outgrown. Others were almost apostate, about all you could say about them was that they weren't atheists. No matter where these people fell on that spectrum of secularism, most of them drank beer, kept dogs, engaged in premarital sex and treated women about as well as any of us did back in those unenlightened days.
This is empathy. I think there's already a thread on that somewhere. It's not the same as sympathy. You can understand someone without being sympathetic to him, and definitely also vice versa. Even with your sworn enemies, it is very valuable to be able to empathize with them, because then you have some hope of knowing what motivates them.
Communism was one of the most evangelical philosophies ever created. It was just as aggressive toward external competitors as the worst religions, and harder on its internal dissidents than most religions have been since the Dark Ages.
You continue to ignore my oft-repeated assertion that morality can be derived rationally from the appreciation of civilization. I think it's time you addressed that before skipping past it like you never heard it. My parents taught me that all of this wonderful stuff I was taking advantage could only be there if everybody including me was reasonably kind to everybody else and if everybody at least tried diligently to do their part in keep it running. I really love all that wonderful stuff and I have always wanted to be kind and do my part. Nobody had to make me believe in supernatural critters to motivate me to try to be a good human being. So why should anybody else need that kind of fraudulent motivation?
Are you talking about Osama? Don't his videos count as evidence of his complicity in 9/11 and the entire campaign of anti-Western terrorism? Nonetheless my quibbling with you over that fine point should not be construed as support for punishing the people of Afghanistan. As I have often said, if we really wanted Osama's head all we have to do is threaten to start bombing Saudi Arabia, which provides most of the financial support for anti-American terrorism worldwide--or as we say in my country, "Follow the money." King Abdullah would deliver Osama's gift-wrapped head via FedEx overnight service.
Hey, you're not old enough to have met people who remembered the Tsar's regime. It was really horrible. It wasn't too hard to believe that communism was at least better than that. My aunt and her husband emigrated to the USSR in the 1920s. She was Czech and he was Croatian and they thought the Russians were finally going to show the world that the Slavic people could accomplish something important and noble. He shot his mouth off and died in a gulag. She came back enlightened.