The dinosaurs.
- Thread starter Mucker
- Start date
I'm sorry?
Right, but we know that the Sun is what provides light. The Bible does not accredit it with that, though.
Why wouldn't it? If you are using that logic, what would any of the details matter to Man? Genesis mentions how the land and the waters were seperated...but why should that matter, and what exactly stars are not matter? The Creation part of Genesis appears to be "Here's how it all works" story, so why not mention the connection between stars (which are only mentioned briefly) and our Sun?
Considering that the stars were of great interest to everyone else, before the ancient Jews and after them, I can't imagine why an omnipotent being wouldn't mention them. And if you need proof, then take a look at the allignment of the pryamids and Sphynx to the night sky in 10,500 B.C..
So are you saying that Moses just assumed what happened during creation? Or are you saying that God was all like "Ok, I'm only gonna say this once...?"
Unless you've gone from a branch of Judaism to Muslim or Buddism, then you really do still believe in the fundamentals of what you were taught as a child. And please don't underestimate what you learned in your youth, because right or wrong, words and images from back then will stay with you forever.
Well, if you believe in the Bible, then yes, you do.
Simple. Ghosts are of a spiritual world, which, according to science, does not exist. And UFOs, according to religion, does not exist. To see them both is a contradiction.
When I said "Personal experience will not suffice," I meant that sometimes, things that are something else can be misunderstood. Like, for example, the UFO I saw may very well have been a secret government aircraft. After all, do you know how many UFO sightings were attributed to the first flights of the B-2 bombers? If you said "I just had this feeling..." about God or something, that's not enough to validate him. For example, I've had panic attacks where I KNEW I was going to die. But did I? Nope.
Not everything is based on our own personal experience.
What principals, exactly, are in the Torah that modern science agrees with?
Maybe not, except that if you don't, then you don't follow the Bible, which is the Word of God.
Since when does Christian mean "Christ-Like?" It's meaning, actually, is "One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ," and/or "A member of one of the Churches of Christ." To be Christian is to be one who believes in the teachings of Christ, so to disagree with Christians on their fundamental beliefs would mean you are not a Christian.
Fine, but please explain how you got from "Does he exist" to "He does exist" ?
No, I'm sure they do wonder and doubt. But the fact that they can actually come to the fiercely firm conclusion that God does exist is mind-numbing. There is no factual basis to God, Jesus, or any other Biblical figure, and ALL of their faith is based on this one single collection of letters and hyms and poems...it just makes me nuts, becuase they simply have to be brainwashed or ignorant to reach that conclusion.
But your example concludes that the Sumerian story is the accurate one, and your story is the one that is skewed. Because, and obviously you've never read any Sumerian texts, the texts in Sumer tell similar stories, but the difference in the diety structure is enough to make anyone who believes it a heathen to Jews or Christians. For example, the main diety in the story (The equivilent to the Jewish God) is actually the SON of the creator of the universe. You aren't grasping this, I see, becuase you still insist they are the same story when they aren't.
Also, which story is correct? The Jewish version or the Sumerian?
Nice try, but you can't duck this one. You called yourself a Christian, and all Christians have fundamental beliefs.
It's only the most closely based because it is the most recent to it. Judaism, overall, is based on the Sumerian religion.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! I will see that when I believe it!
(Yes, I meant to write it that way...)
JD
Agent Smith
Registered Senior Member
Dude, the whole point of The Genisis Creation Story is not supposed to be an exact 100% account on how the world was created. The whole point of it is
A. God created the earth and everything
B. God made mankind and were unique to all living beings that were created on Earth since humans have souls.
C. Satan, the tempter , sowed the seeds of destruction among The first people. By their agreeing and listening to Satan, They disobeyed God in some aspect and were cast out of paradise, where they hadh to work hard for thier living, Satan and Humans became enemies.
D. Humanity further declined to wickedness by murdering each other. E. With the apperence of the Nephillim (Giants, who came from Wicked angels and humans) humanity morally collapsed and Evil was rampant. Everything on earth was so wicked GOd decided to destroy every living thing on earth he made.
F. Only Noah and his Sons were righteous, he decided to "restart" life on earth through them, God destroyed everything on earth with the exception of what was on the ark.
G. Humanity wanted to create an urban culture apart from God and so Created what is probably a Ziggurat to give a name for them selves.
A. God created the earth and everything
B. God made mankind and were unique to all living beings that were created on Earth since humans have souls.
C. Satan, the tempter , sowed the seeds of destruction among The first people. By their agreeing and listening to Satan, They disobeyed God in some aspect and were cast out of paradise, where they hadh to work hard for thier living, Satan and Humans became enemies.
D. Humanity further declined to wickedness by murdering each other. E. With the apperence of the Nephillim (Giants, who came from Wicked angels and humans) humanity morally collapsed and Evil was rampant. Everything on earth was so wicked GOd decided to destroy every living thing on earth he made.
F. Only Noah and his Sons were righteous, he decided to "restart" life on earth through them, God destroyed everything on earth with the exception of what was on the ark.
G. Humanity wanted to create an urban culture apart from God and so Created what is probably a Ziggurat to give a name for them selves.
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Woah! Slow down.... How can you state what the 'whole point of it' is? It's not even an original piece of work- but a copied/translated/chinese whispered text based on the writings of cultures that had come beforehand. If there's a "whole point", it's in the original, not the copy.
A. <s>God</s> The Gods created the earth and everything
B. <s>God</s> The Gods made mankind <s>and were unique to all living beings that were created on Earth since humans have souls.</s>
C. <s>Satan, the tempter , sowed the seeds of destruction among The first people.</s> While the original texts do include serpents, they are in no way related to the bizarre belief of a nasty dude with red horns. In the case of Gilgamesh, while swimming the serpent came and ate the plant of life he had on his boat, and thus inherited eternal life instead of gilgamesh. There are also texts relating to the tree with the fruit of life and fruit of enlightenment guarded by a serpent. The issues of the serpent being evil most likely stem from Tiamat.
E. With the apperence of the <s>Nephillim</s> Anunnaki <s>(Giants, who came from Wicked angels and humans)</s> (Alien beings who actually cried while mankind was drowning during the localised flood)
<s>God</s> A localised flood <s>destroyed everything on earth</s> caused Ziusudra to float down the euphrates and into the persian gulf. <s>with the exception of what was on the ark.</s> With a few animals he was taking to the local market.
Agent Smith
Registered Senior Member
Oh ok now i see it, you posses the original texts and thats where you got all that crap from.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
And where did you get the basis for all of your "crap"? By what feat of revelation did you come to know "the whole point of The Genisis Creation Story"?
Yes, I would imagine so. You can find them on the internet on millions of sites. I will NOT endorse the Nephilim being "Alien Beings" because that is as much of a stretch as anything Christians believe, but the fact is, the Old Testament, and some of the New Testament stories are based on old Sumerian texts. It's reasonable to say that if you've read them.
You, Agent Smith, refuse to see this because you have decided to be blind to fact and refuse to read the Sumerian texts. If you had, you would see where the Jews got their stories from.
JD
I wouldn't call it a copy, Snakelord. A copy would include all of the Sumerian characters, not just certain ones given different names and put in different situations.
What the Bible appears to be is the result of a millenium of passed-down stories from generation to generation, and the changes that occur (Be it on intentionally or not) because of the expanding seperation from the origional sources.
It wasn't a crime, it most likely wasn't intentional, because stories change from person to person, not to mention over the course of a thousand+ years, and it shouldn't be treated as such. The best we can do is enlighten theists to this fact, and try to convince them to study the origins of their faith.
JD
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
JDawg:
I am questioning whether to continue this discussion as I think we will never reach a point of agreement on anything. I would say you are just as brainwashed as you claim I am. You insist on pigeon-holing me and saying I have to do this or believe this or say this, whatever.... I don't think that telling someone what they believe and then refuting it is the right way to debate. You can't tell me how I have to interpret the Bible to be a Christian. You can't just decide that I haven't read any of the Sumerian texts (or translations)... I have.
As to my statement of "the sun makes the light not the light". Here is what I mean. You make it sound like light didn't exist before the sun. In your last statement you STILL make it sound that way. As if you don't understand that there are billions of light sources in the universe and light existed long before our sun did.
There is the quote that shows what I'm talking about. Also, clearly ancient Jews knew that the sun provided light to the earth. Romans and Greeks knew the same thing. It is obvious when looking at the sky where the light is coming from.
Because since when has the fact that the sun is a star affected you? Tell me one time when it changed how things worked for you in your daily life. The creation story in genesis is not a "here's how it works" story. It is a story that establishes the order of events for the creation of the universe and sets up the idea of a seven day week. It doesn't really explain how anything works to my knowledge, at least not without some very insightful reading and some kind of divine inspiration.
Are you implying that the Bible never mentions the existence of stars or that the Bible never mentions the sun is a star? The Bible mentions stars, it just never says the sun is a star. Also the Bible was written by collection of men. I don't think any of them were omnipotent, but i could be wrong.
As far as I know the creation story was passed down the Hebrew line from the time of Abraham. The way that Moses wrote it is special as there are meanings there beyond the literal. However, as I said, I don't think God stood over Moses's shoulder in a literal sense.
I don't underestimate what I learned in my youth, it has an effect on you forever but you don't believe it forever. That is an absurd thing to even imply. In my youth I believed in santa clause, I don't now. Beliefs change, even ones you were taught in your youth.
More bullshit, plain and simple. You are basically saying that if aliens exist, ghosts can't. That is absolute hogwash and anyone could tell you otherwise. Besides which science doesn't say a spiritual world doesn't exist. It says there isn't enough evidence to prove one. Your remark gives away a huge misunderstanding about the nature of science. And according to what religion do UFO's not exist!? I am sure there are religions that believe in both UFO's and an afterlife.
I am well aware that there are things that can be misunderstood. However, I don't think you can rule out personal experience completely. No my personal experience was not, "I just had this feeling..." What feeling? My personal experience is my own and this isn't the place to discuss it, but if you really wanted to talk we could find a way to do so privately (IM or something).
Tell me something you know that isn't based on personal experience. I guarantee you, there is not a thing.
I would count myself in that category.
That is all I feel like doing right now as I have spent most of my day nailing shingles to a very hot roof. I might do more later.
My AIM name is m1a127. Feel free to throw me on a buddy list and AIM me sometime as long as you are really wanting to discuss (that goes for everyone not just JDawg, I am more than happy to talk to anyone that wants to talk to me. Just don't be mean please, I'm sensitive
.
I am questioning whether to continue this discussion as I think we will never reach a point of agreement on anything. I would say you are just as brainwashed as you claim I am. You insist on pigeon-holing me and saying I have to do this or believe this or say this, whatever.... I don't think that telling someone what they believe and then refuting it is the right way to debate. You can't tell me how I have to interpret the Bible to be a Christian. You can't just decide that I haven't read any of the Sumerian texts (or translations)... I have.
As to my statement of "the sun makes the light not the light". Here is what I mean. You make it sound like light didn't exist before the sun. In your last statement you STILL make it sound that way. As if you don't understand that there are billions of light sources in the universe and light existed long before our sun did.
There is the quote that shows what I'm talking about. Also, clearly ancient Jews knew that the sun provided light to the earth. Romans and Greeks knew the same thing. It is obvious when looking at the sky where the light is coming from.
Because since when has the fact that the sun is a star affected you? Tell me one time when it changed how things worked for you in your daily life. The creation story in genesis is not a "here's how it works" story. It is a story that establishes the order of events for the creation of the universe and sets up the idea of a seven day week. It doesn't really explain how anything works to my knowledge, at least not without some very insightful reading and some kind of divine inspiration.
Are you implying that the Bible never mentions the existence of stars or that the Bible never mentions the sun is a star? The Bible mentions stars, it just never says the sun is a star. Also the Bible was written by collection of men. I don't think any of them were omnipotent, but i could be wrong.
As far as I know the creation story was passed down the Hebrew line from the time of Abraham. The way that Moses wrote it is special as there are meanings there beyond the literal. However, as I said, I don't think God stood over Moses's shoulder in a literal sense.
I don't underestimate what I learned in my youth, it has an effect on you forever but you don't believe it forever. That is an absurd thing to even imply. In my youth I believed in santa clause, I don't now. Beliefs change, even ones you were taught in your youth.
More bullshit, plain and simple. You are basically saying that if aliens exist, ghosts can't. That is absolute hogwash and anyone could tell you otherwise. Besides which science doesn't say a spiritual world doesn't exist. It says there isn't enough evidence to prove one. Your remark gives away a huge misunderstanding about the nature of science. And according to what religion do UFO's not exist!? I am sure there are religions that believe in both UFO's and an afterlife.
I am well aware that there are things that can be misunderstood. However, I don't think you can rule out personal experience completely. No my personal experience was not, "I just had this feeling..." What feeling? My personal experience is my own and this isn't the place to discuss it, but if you really wanted to talk we could find a way to do so privately (IM or something).
Tell me something you know that isn't based on personal experience. I guarantee you, there is not a thing.
I would count myself in that category.
That is all I feel like doing right now as I have spent most of my day nailing shingles to a very hot roof. I might do more later.
My AIM name is m1a127. Feel free to throw me on a buddy list and AIM me sometime as long as you are really wanting to discuss (that goes for everyone not just JDawg, I am more than happy to talk to anyone that wants to talk to me. Just don't be mean please, I'm sensitive
.You are right. I am brainwashed against believing things without facts to back them. What a sad, sad person I am.
You are overly sensitive to this "Having" to believe idea. I've noticed that most Christians are that way. They feel insulted if the idea that their religion was forced upon them is even insinuated. Calm down, I have not once said you had to believe a damn thing. Feel free to believe what you like.
Right, becuase it means you're losing! I can't believe you just said that!
Oh, I see what you meant now...Ok, just to get something straight with you: YES. YOU. DO. You MUST believe in the word of god, and you MUST believe that Jesus was the son of God, his miracles were the signs of this, and that he really rose from the dead into Heaven. Those things you MUST believe to be a Christian. You MUST believe in his works and the stories that tell them. Otherwise, you are not a Christian. Tell me how I'm wrong!
No, that's not what I meant.
Yeah, I understand. But the way it is written in Genesis makes it very clear that the sun has nothing to do with the light provided on Earth. And, the fact is, there is no light on Earth without the Sun. OK, the stars are still there, but that doesn't provide the light they are talking about in Genesis. Again, so you can understand...The Bible does not credit our Sun with providing light for the planet.
Ok, that's just petty. You knew exactly what I meant by that.
Right, but whoever wrote Genesis didn't.
When I put 2 and 2 together, and realized that every little star out there is somewhat like our very own life-giving, life-sustaining Sun, I realized that there was a good chance, with all the stars out there, that SOME of them MUST have a planet orbiting it with intelligent life on it. That, my friend, changed my life.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to the author.
Ok, so it was more of a "Here's how it happened" story.
Well, it tells you that the Sun is there to rule the day, and the moon is there to rule the night. It says that rain comes from an ocean in the sky, and it says that there is a dome which keeps Heaven seperate from earth.
My bad, I didn't word that correctly. But if you had read my posts before that, I clearly state that Genesis makes a small mention of the stars.
But in my opinion, not making mention that the stars and the sun are the same type of heavenly body is a huge red flag to the author's ignorace.
I can't believe you don't see this as a HUGE omission. If the Sun died today, we'd all be dead tomarrow. The Sun is the single most important element of our lives that to NOT clearly explain it's function and purpose and how it is one of an innumerable amount of stars in the sky, strikes me as rediculous.
No shit, Captain Obvious. The point is that the writings are the Word of God, correct? Otherwise, how would the author know about Genesis? Or Adam and Eve? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't God have to tell someone what happened during those 7 days for it to be written? The point was that God is omnipotent, and when he told WHOEVER about Genesis, he should have known the workings of the universe and our solar system. But, by the way it was written, he didn't.
From long before Abraham, actually. Didn't we already talk about the Sumerians? I could have sworn....
Oh, and you would know this how?
And what makes you think that? You are making a whole hell of a lot of assumptions for a believer.
Is it? Tell me then, does the fear of God not stay with you from youth, even if you stop believing? Of course it does. The point is, that aversions last until you get them taken care of through counciling. If you were told that God existed by your mommy, no matter how sure you are that God doesn't exist 20 years down the road, there is that aversion to saying it aloud, there is that fear of God despite the fact you are sure he doesn't exist. It's the same as if you were attacked by a dog as a child. No matter what kind of dog you see, you are most likely going to avoid them for the rest of your life.
Yeah, I guess you got me on that one. My whole life, I saw it as a contradiction to believe both, but then as I wrote it here, I realized that ghosts aren't religious in nature, as much as they are spiritual. My bad.
No, but there isn't anything to say that one does exist.
"Enough evidence?" There isn't ANY evidence! Of course, it can change, but as of right this moment, there isn't anything to say that one exists.
Judaism, Christianity, and all the cults that branch from it. In the Bible, the universe is in the order it's in only so the Earth can work, not to support life elsewhere.
And why not? Don't hide it, man! For you, this experience brought you to your god, it should be something to be rejoiced and shared with others, right? Or are ashamed of it?
Anything you learned from a textbook. How do you know about the Pyramids? Have you been there? Did you discover them whilst traveling about Egypt? Didn't think so. You didn't learn of them through your own personal experience, pal.
Then all I have said about the way you must accept and understand the Bible holds true. Face it, or prove me wrong.
JD
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Do you have any extra-Biblical evidence that someone named Mose wrote anything whatsoever? Also, by what special act of revelation did you come to know Moses' intent?
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
JDawg, I'm done talking to you about my beliefs. Your comments have gone from constructive to destructive. You still insist on deciding what I believe and then arguing against me on those grounds instead of listening to what I believe and deciding if you agree or not. There is simply no way to debate that. None. How can you win if you don't even get to choose what side you are on? You are making me defend beliefs I don't even agree with. I think it would be a good idea if we stopped arguing as it gets us nowhere.
There is one thing I would like to correct though.
You know things you learned from a textbook by personal experience. The experience of reading the textbook. You know things you saw on the discovery channel by personally seeing the discovery channel. Everything you see, hear, or percieve is all personal experience. Is it true that you can't trust personal experience all of the time? Yeah, but it is ALL you have.
You would lose that money as I have read portions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, specifically the Noah-esque parts.
There is one thing I would like to correct though.
You know things you learned from a textbook by personal experience. The experience of reading the textbook. You know things you saw on the discovery channel by personally seeing the discovery channel. Everything you see, hear, or percieve is all personal experience. Is it true that you can't trust personal experience all of the time? Yeah, but it is ALL you have.
You would lose that money as I have read portions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, specifically the Noah-esque parts.
Who's arguing your beliefs?
You've had every oppertunity to tell me exactly what you believe, and you have:
You said "I don't exactly see eye to with other Christians on a lot of issues." but what issues did you mean? You think self-expression is fine (Dancing), you don't hate gays, and you think premarital sex is OK. Besides the premarital sex, tell me where you differ in fundamental, biblical values with Christians? Are my assumptions of you being a Christian unfounded?
NO. Becuase you said "I call myself a Christian." And with that comes a set of beliefs, Spoilsport. If you call yourself a Christian, then why would I not assume that you believe in the teachings of Christ and the Bible? As a matter of fact, when I tried to dispel and misunderstandings on a semantic level by giving the defenition of the word Christian, which is "One who professes a belief in the teachings of Christ," you said:
"I would count myself in that category."
So let's get this straight. When you call yourself a Christian, I point out that you must believe in certain things. Otherwise, you aren't a Christian. That's when you freak out.
Then why did you not make yourself clear in what your beliefs are? Oh, wait, you already did!
"I call myself a Christian..."
Well, buddy, there are a set of beliefs that come along with that moniker.
So you don't believe that the world was formed in 7 days? You don't believe that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit? You don't believe in the ten commandments? You don't believe that Noah built an ark for all the animals of the world? You don't believe that Jesus was the son of God? You don't believe that Christ performed miracles? You don't believe that he died on the cross? You don't believe that he rose from the dead? Well, you can't have your Christ and eat it, too. If you believe in Christ, you have to believe in ALL of those things in order to be a Christian. If you don't, then maybe you ought to be careful what you call yourself, becuase you wouldn't be Christian if you differ in opinion with any of that.
Ok, I think we're getting into shady area here, because when I say personal experience, I mean things you have experienced for yourself. When you say "I know of Christ through personal experience" I would imagine that you meant you had spoken with him, or seen him. And to say "I know of the pyramids through personal experience" would follow suit. You didn't see the pyramids for yourself. And because of that, I would call reading of something through a textbook second-hand experience.
And you couldn't see that the stories of the Jewish Bible are just ripoffs of that?
JD
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
Tell me where Christ said:
1) The Bible is the whole and complete Word of God. He didn't. You say I must believe it is. Christ NEVER said that. Not in the Bible and I don't think I've even heard legends or rumors of it. Obviously the Bible didn't exist at the time.
2) The Bible will be perfectly translated into English because God wouldn't let His word become impure. Once more, didn't happen.
3) The earth was formed in 6, 24 hour days from the frame of reference of humans. Neglect the fact that it was formed before humans were here or that there is no Universal time as relativity prevents such a thing from existing.
I agree, but I don't think you know what they are.
From someone's or something's frame of reference, yeah, the world was formed in seven days, but relativity says that it is ok for two different beings to have two separate time lines. The seven days and 14.6 billion years(?) happened simultaneously, or at least that is what I believe. I could be wrong. As to Adam and Eve, whether they existed for real or are a parable I couldn't say. I don't believe Noah put all the animals in the world on the Ark, however, there is evidence of a localized flood. I do believe Christ performed miracles, I do believe he rose from the dead.
There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who don't believe in a literal reading of the old testament, or at least not it's entirety. Just because you haven't met them doesn't mean they are any less real. They are just less vocal.
True, reading about the pyramids means you didn't experience them first hand, but reading the book was a personal experience. My point is that everything you know was learned through the use of your five senses. To say you know anything you have to trust those senses.
I have already talked in many posts above about why you would expect there to be similar stories in the Torah. I don't think I need to post it again.
Didn't the Old Testament exist back then? And if Christ did not want you to believe the whole thing, why didn't he say not to? Didn't he ever say "Believe in the word of god?" Well, isn't the Bible the word of God? If Jesus intended people to ignore parts, or not take them literally, why wouldn't he have said so?
And let's be honest here...Jesus was God, right? Then why would he not want you to follow his word? Any part of it.
...What are you rebuking here?
Oh, I don't? Except for the fact that both my parents are Christian, and I attended a Christian academy, and have studied teh Bible at length...you're right, I don't know what a Christian is supposed to believe.
Ok, explain to me where you get the gall to believe some things and not others? See, this is one of the worst things about some theist, and that's the selective belief system. Some people believe and don't believe things that are convienient to them. Like you, for example, believing that it's OK to have premarital sex. Well, isn't that convienient for you. (I'm not arguing you on this point, I'm just saying that it goes against your Christian foundation)
And please, please tell me where there is evidence of a localized flood.
Right, and mostly it's becuase they don't read past what they are told to read in church, and they take the words of their priests, whom of course are selecting what to believe and what not to believe based on what's convienient. There is one branch of Christianity that believes, literally, in the Bible and only the Bible, and that's the Jehova's Witness.
Got ya. We just had a little misunderstanding there.
Yeah, but if I recall correctly, none of them held much water. (no pun intended) Was it you who said that the Abraham passed it down orally, and it was changed a bit, but the characters stayed the same?
Because the fact of the matter is this: The stories aren't similar to the point where you say "Oh my goodness, this is proof of the Jewish God!" No, the stories are similar to the point of "Ok, they are both flood stories, and someone gets the inside scoop beforehand, and builds a ship to save some creatures." The differences lie in the dieties, and the locations (If I remember correctly) and those are HUGE differences.
JD
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
The Old Testament existed back then in a way. Jewish cannon at the time was what we call the Law or the Torah. The first five books of what is now the Old Testament. However, the prophets and writings were not yet cannon, although they were studied from. This is comparable to Billy Graham books for modern Christians. They are studied and used, but not considered Holy.
Jesus did advise people not to follow the Law to the letter going so far as accusing the pharisees of legalism. Later Paul discusses legalism and is also against it.
Jesus also taught by means of parable. Which shows that he considered it a legitimate way to the teach. It is doubtful that he would have specifically said "this or that is a parable". He never called the stories he told parables in the Bible. It is simply understood.
Jesus never called the Bible the word of God. The Bible never called itself the word of God. I have already said that I don't think God was looking over Moses's shoulder while he wrote it. I think Paul's epistles are the word of Paul. Even if they are inspired by God or a desire to please God they were still written by a man.
Nothing. You asked if I believed the earth was formed in 7 days. I told you what I believed.
If you studied the Bible at length you don't show it. I feel it is more like you were told what to believe about the Bible because if you had read it you would realize that it never claims to be the word of God and Jesus never claims it to be.
The gall to believe some things and not others? The Bible is NOT ONE FUCKING BOOK. Get it through your skull. It is a collection written by many different people. Parts can be right and parts can be wrong. Seeing as I don't believe the Bible is the word of God then I don't see how I am supposed to take the whole thing as the most perfect book ever. You are busting my balls for not being dogmatic and here's why. You are just as dogmatic as most Christians are. You aren't open to listening or learning or anyone elses ideas.
Also, find a verse of the Bible specifically discussing premarital sex. Find a part in the Old Testament where polygamy is rebuked. You won't. I am not going against my Christian foundation. I am just smart enough to realize that most Christians are brainwashed morons and I won't join their ranks.
I'll look some up. It was around the area where the Tigris meets the Euphrates. The evidence was something along the lines of the civilization there had big setback from the rest of the area. That flood is likely what influenced the Gilgamesh Epic.
I am failing to see how the differences would either prove or disprove the existence of the Jewish God. Maybe you can enlighten me? I think the stories lend creedence to Abram's stated place of birth, Ur, and to the Jews being descended from the Sumerians.
The similarities between various Sumerian stories and the genesis flood are overwhelming. These would include:
"Side-wall... pay attention" Ziusudra iv,155
"Wall, listen to me." Atrahasis III,i,20
"Wall, pay attention" Gilgamesh XI,22
"Destroy your house, spurn property, save life" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Tear down house, abandon property, save life" Gilgamesh XI,24-26
"the decision that mankind is to be destroyed" Ziusudra iv,157-158
"The gods commanded total destruction" Atrahasis II,viii,34
"The great gods decided to make a deluge" Gilgamesh XI,14
"God...decided to make an end of all flesh" Genesis 6:13
"...the huge boat" Ziusudra v,207
"Build a ship" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Build a ship" Gilgamesh XI,24
"Make yourself an ark" Genesis 6:14
"build a boat" Berossus
"who protected the seed of mankind" Ziusudra vi,259
"Bring into the ship the seed of life of everything" Gilgamesh XI,27
"to keep their seed alive" Genesis 7:3 (KJV)
"coming of the flood on the seventh night" Atrahasis,III,i,37
"after seven days the waters of the flood came" Genesis 7:10
"pitch I poured into the inside" Gilgamesh XI,66
"cover it inside and out with pitch" Genesis 6:14
"some people scrape pitch off the boat" Berossus
"your family, your relatives" Atrahasis DT,42(w),8
"he sent his family on board" Atrahasis III,ii,42
"into the ship all my family and relatives" Gilgamesh XI,84
"Go into the ark, you and all your household" Genesis 7:1
"he sent his wife and children and friends on board" Berossus
"animals which emerge from the earth" Ziusudra vi,253
"all the wild creatures of the steppe" Atrahasis DT,42(w),9
"The cattle of the field, the beast of the plain" Gilgamesh XI,85
"clean animals and of animals that are not clean" Genesis 7:8
"and put both birds and animals on board" Berossus
"Ziusudra made an opening in the large boat" Ziusudra vi,207
"I opened the window" Gilgamesh XI,135
"Noah opened the window of the ark" Genesis 8:6
"he pried open a portion of the boat" Berossus
"On Mount Nisir the boat grounded" Gilgamesh XI,140
"the ark came to rest upon the mountains" Genesis 8:4
"the boat had grounded upon a mountain" Berossus
"After Khsisuthros... landed ... a long mountain" Moses of Khoren.
"The dove went out and returned" Gilgamesh XI,147
"sent forth the dove and the dove came back to him" Genesis 8:10b-11
"let out the birds and they again returned to the ship" Berossus.
"I sent forth a raven" Gilgamesh XI,152
"Noah... sent forth a raven" Genesis 8:7
"The king slaughtered...bulls and sheep" Ziusudra vi,211
"He offered [a sacrifice]" Atrahasis III,v,31
"And offered a sacrifice" Gilgamesh XI,155
"offered burnt offerings on the altar" Genesis 8:20
"built an altar and sacrificed to the gods" Berossus
"[The gods smelled] the savor" Atrahasis III,v,34
"The gods smelled the sweet savor" Gilgamesh XI,160
"And the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma..." Genesis 8:21
(There is also another common element in this area from some Akaadian texts: After Utnapishtim lands, he builds a fire to cook and "... the gods smelt the fragrance, the gods smelt the pleasant fragrance...")
And so on and so forth. It is quite prevalent to say that these stories share a common ancestry.
What we are left with is a huge bunch of what's, why's, how's and who's. You can't tell me if/what god/s were in charge, can't tell me who was on the boat, where the flood was, etc etc etc.
With so many outstanding questions how can anyone just snap their fingers and accept the first version they see? In this day and age a child is more likely to hear of, or read the noah version and while being taught the more modern versions of this story, they will most likely never read the others.
So, someone tell me..... What gods? what person? What details? Can we just accept what it says in the biblical version? Now apply that question to the rest of the bible.
"Side-wall... pay attention" Ziusudra iv,155
"Wall, listen to me." Atrahasis III,i,20
"Wall, pay attention" Gilgamesh XI,22
"Destroy your house, spurn property, save life" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Tear down house, abandon property, save life" Gilgamesh XI,24-26
"the decision that mankind is to be destroyed" Ziusudra iv,157-158
"The gods commanded total destruction" Atrahasis II,viii,34
"The great gods decided to make a deluge" Gilgamesh XI,14
"God...decided to make an end of all flesh" Genesis 6:13
"...the huge boat" Ziusudra v,207
"Build a ship" Atrahasis III,i,22
"Build a ship" Gilgamesh XI,24
"Make yourself an ark" Genesis 6:14
"build a boat" Berossus
"who protected the seed of mankind" Ziusudra vi,259
"Bring into the ship the seed of life of everything" Gilgamesh XI,27
"to keep their seed alive" Genesis 7:3 (KJV)
"coming of the flood on the seventh night" Atrahasis,III,i,37
"after seven days the waters of the flood came" Genesis 7:10
"pitch I poured into the inside" Gilgamesh XI,66
"cover it inside and out with pitch" Genesis 6:14
"some people scrape pitch off the boat" Berossus
"your family, your relatives" Atrahasis DT,42(w),8
"he sent his family on board" Atrahasis III,ii,42
"into the ship all my family and relatives" Gilgamesh XI,84
"Go into the ark, you and all your household" Genesis 7:1
"he sent his wife and children and friends on board" Berossus
"animals which emerge from the earth" Ziusudra vi,253
"all the wild creatures of the steppe" Atrahasis DT,42(w),9
"The cattle of the field, the beast of the plain" Gilgamesh XI,85
"clean animals and of animals that are not clean" Genesis 7:8
"and put both birds and animals on board" Berossus
"Ziusudra made an opening in the large boat" Ziusudra vi,207
"I opened the window" Gilgamesh XI,135
"Noah opened the window of the ark" Genesis 8:6
"he pried open a portion of the boat" Berossus
"On Mount Nisir the boat grounded" Gilgamesh XI,140
"the ark came to rest upon the mountains" Genesis 8:4
"the boat had grounded upon a mountain" Berossus
"After Khsisuthros... landed ... a long mountain" Moses of Khoren.
"The dove went out and returned" Gilgamesh XI,147
"sent forth the dove and the dove came back to him" Genesis 8:10b-11
"let out the birds and they again returned to the ship" Berossus.
"I sent forth a raven" Gilgamesh XI,152
"Noah... sent forth a raven" Genesis 8:7
"The king slaughtered...bulls and sheep" Ziusudra vi,211
"He offered [a sacrifice]" Atrahasis III,v,31
"And offered a sacrifice" Gilgamesh XI,155
"offered burnt offerings on the altar" Genesis 8:20
"built an altar and sacrificed to the gods" Berossus
"[The gods smelled] the savor" Atrahasis III,v,34
"The gods smelled the sweet savor" Gilgamesh XI,160
"And the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma..." Genesis 8:21
(There is also another common element in this area from some Akaadian texts: After Utnapishtim lands, he builds a fire to cook and "... the gods smelt the fragrance, the gods smelt the pleasant fragrance...")
And so on and so forth. It is quite prevalent to say that these stories share a common ancestry.
What we are left with is a huge bunch of what's, why's, how's and who's. You can't tell me if/what god/s were in charge, can't tell me who was on the boat, where the flood was, etc etc etc.
With so many outstanding questions how can anyone just snap their fingers and accept the first version they see? In this day and age a child is more likely to hear of, or read the noah version and while being taught the more modern versions of this story, they will most likely never read the others.
So, someone tell me..... What gods? what person? What details? Can we just accept what it says in the biblical version? Now apply that question to the rest of the bible.
Well I have seen some things here that I hadn't considered! A meteor (spelling?) could have caused the great flood, but then someone ('Noah') forsaw it. Either God told 'him'...or he was an astronomer.
...but then what are the chances of one person just happening to discover an approaching comet and saving most of the life on Earth...?
...but then what are the chances of one person just happening to discover an approaching comet and saving most of the life on Earth...?
this should be under pseudoscience its not really a religious thing, on top of that note the earliest human fossils and the latest dinosaur fossils are still a huge distance from each other in years, please research something before spouting crap =P, besides we still have a lot of this "natural evil" not eveyr mugger thief or criminal in new york is an athiest chief