Not to youOriginally posted by SnakeLord
Never. Give me an example of something that would require "punishment".
Umm...basically when I did something against my parents wishes(stayed out too late, talked back to them, and other such things, I was punished. The way you do is a very anarchistic way of disciplining your child since she never is subjected to any rules, which means that you have no standard of behavior
What makes you believe that? Oh yes, because some old dood said some old dood wrote something because some invisible dood told him to.
But they have no reason to make this stuff up. they had no axe to grind, and they were obviously sincere in their beliefs, otherwise they wouldn't have died for their beliefs.
Ok, it's the only source of 'evidence' you have, but you can't use something within it to prove something within it. It requires a LOT more than that.
Upon Gilgamesh's journey he came across a place with half man/half scorpion creatures.
Because the text says he did, does that now make it a fact?
I guess it does.
I could have used any scenario. However, re-read the post.
Humans are not perfect by any means. Everyone has insecurities of some type- the list is endless. Everyone deals with this fact in their own way. Some commit suicide because they can't cope, some take prozac and see shrinks, some become religious. My insecurities are also there.... sitting in the background- raising their ugly heads once in a while. However i can't just wash it all away with pills, with a gun, or with god. The insecurities of life are still there- you just learn to ignore them better when you have a "quick fix solution".
Well then, explain to me exactly what "works" is, in your opinion.
Oh cool a greater inheritance. So, is there like different levels of heaven?
If you want to take it that way, yes.
For our works shall be tried by fire. That which have done not to the glory of God is burnt up like wood, hay, and stubble. But that which is done to the glory of God will be like gold, silver, and precious stones--which a fire only refines. Again God is a fair God and will reward those that brought glory and honor to his kingdom, and won't reward those who just got in under the wire.
So like you have downtown slums for those who didn't build up these treasures and then you have like beverly hills for those who did amass a greater inheritance? There's something greater than eternal life?
It's still eternal life, just you have a greater portion of heaven.
What would be so strange if that the Genesis story might have been stolen by the Sumerians instead of the other way around? Here's the theory: Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and so on and so forth. This becomes the story that spreads by word of mouth as Adam and Eve's children populate the Earth. The Sumerians come along, they take this story and put it in the Gilgamesh. But it is still the Adam and Eve story and all, just adapted and stuff changed around for a better story. That explains the deal with the location of Eden and Adamu. Whats wrong with this? Oh wait...this supports Christian beliefs...and we would never think supporting such a narrow-minded religion.
Wouldn't it seem somewhat pertinent to read ancient Sumerian seeings as they were- according to both stories- the origins of all life on the planet? Have you recently read the account of Adamu? But why ever not?
He's the first of the human race and seeings as those texts vastly predate the biblical texts it would be closer to the truth/ a more accurate account.
And why would that be?
Ok, i understand it would pretty much denounce the christian version of one god/3 in 1, but i thought people cared about truth.
So one must ask if this was an original story or an older one that Abraham played no part in whatsoever. As a child born in Ur, Abraham would know the stories, as you yourself have stated. He would share those stories, as you yourself have stated, but is there much reason to then think he was actually the participant in those stories?
So you just assume that as a result of some random idol they found, that the Abraham and Issac story is a copy? Furthermore, are you going to try and tell me that only one ram could ever get his head stuck in the thickets? If he shared the stories, then why would he twist them aroudn--aka lie--about them?
Had the story of the ram caught in the thicket been told years/centuries prior and Abraham was merely retelling an old Sumerian story? So now you believe god told Abraham not to kill his son- when in all likelihood the story entails some Sumerian dood doing the same thing with completely different gods.
This is NOT just "some old poetry" as you like to pass it off as. We are talking the core fundamentals of your belief- The countless people that tell me the importance of how god spared abrahams son yada yada when it might well be completely bogus.
Again what is the motive for Moses to record these things and to twist them?
But yet, faced with the possibility/probability of falsehood you guys just shy away and state it's just "a few poems". How easy, how quick to just wash it aside when it pleases you.
So what do we have so far?
Adam/creation story
Noah
Abraham
Moses.....
wow.... just a few poems right? Of course we could go on, (and i will get to it at some stage), and talk of other demi-gods, story heroes etc that have ressurrected from the dead. 3 days in "stasis" and then buggered off somewhere else/another planet etc etc...
Add all the contradictions.
To you they will always be contradictions, because you wish to look no further. Not to me; all of these contradictions are surface and if you dig deeper you'll realize that they are not contradictions
Add things like celebration of christmas/easter which are purely pagan in origin, again adding to just how "fraud" a religion christianity is and all you have left is this:
"just have faith."
Faith is the cornerstone of this faith--I don't call it religion. That is all I need. You might need more. I'm content with this
That isn't much. Damn, that isn't anything.
The dinosaurs.
- Thread starter Mucker
- Start date
Firstly i'd just like to ask if you could make it a little easier for me to read your responses by separating your text from mine. Either use quotes or make one bold/one normal text. I hate to ask but it's quite hard to dissect as it stands. Thnx
Some people do say that but in this particular instance they're wrong. My daughter never does anything wrong. Ever.
She likes to ask questions about everything, and she learns a lot from her cousins, (who are disciplined yet continually behave badly). She's more than aware of what right and wrong is... she chooses to do right. She spilt a tub of paint on the floor- yes it's a nice carpet. She came in and said: "sorry dad i dropped the paint." In this case i could shout at her, smack her bum, send her to bed- but what would she learn? Having accidents means you get a smacked ass? She could answer back, and i could punish her for it.... but what does she learn? I find it ends up with two conflicting statements:
Respect your elders/parents
Respect must be earnt.
If im a shithead father i'd rather she tell me than order her to respect and obey me. Would you expect her to carry out my orders if they were stupid? Of course not, and yet if you are not given the choice how can you ever expect to do the right thing when nobody is around to give those orders?
I find the key is in teaching/parenting..... not in waiting until something happens then blaming them for it. Accidents will always happen- regardless of who we are, but everything else can be solved via teaching before the event. We don't let our kids get run over and then teach them the code of crossing the road. We, as parents, should be pre-emptive and teach our children in advance.
As for things like staying out late. It's bound to happen to everyone at some stage. Why do parents have a go at their children for staying out late? Is it because they disobeyed or is it because the parents worry about the childs safety? In this day and age you can't really trust anyone, (something to do with upbringing?), so i can understand the concern and worry, especially with girls. These things will inevitably happen but in such instances i'd state that teaching- showing that you're worried/why you're worried etc would be more fruitful than telling them to "go to their room" "you're grounded" etc which merely forces a communication GAP and rebellious instinct.
Sure, it might end up with me failing as a parent- but i haven't seen anyone do any better. It seems everyone turns out a scumbag regardless.
There's even parents going to such extreme lengths as disowning their children simply because their beliefs differ. If they can do that to their own children i'd hate to see what they would be like with everyone else. You'll see people come in here quite frequently asking for advice. Their parents have kicked them out for changing religion etc etc.... Everyone gives that advice, but imo it should be the parent in this forum asking for advice on how to be a parent.
This is used so often it's freaky. It's like someone actually deems this in itself as proof. Hey, no-ones got a reason to die unless it's true. Need i point to what remains of the twin towers? Does that make their beliefs valid? Does that mean everything they believe is true? It's fanaticism. Eventually the belief controls the person, instead of vice versa. There are people, even here, who are fanatical about things such as satan, claiming he has possessed every burger, every video game, and every hairdresser on the planet. There are people who are fanatical about movie stars- eventually turning into stalkers and trying to kill the person they apparently worship beyond all measure. Fanaticism is a real issue in life.
I see...
To keep things nice and simple the starting point would be text age. The Sumerian texts predate biblical texts by a big bunch of numbers.
There's a lot more to it than that though, and we can get into it if you so desire. Let me know.
"narrow minded religion" has nothing to do with this. I do feel people should at least take the time to read ancient texts such as sumerian. Tell me... what do you stand to lose? Nothing.
Perhaps because they were there at the time? What is it you said?..... "they have no reason to make this stuff up. they had no axe to grind, and they were obviously sincere in their beliefs." Anyone who then made a future copy/translation of those texts could not make it as accurate as the originals.
I didn't assume anything. It's possible based on the evidence. Assuming= thinking you've got god figured out to a 't' simply by reading one old book out of a thousand. That, my friend, is assumption.
We must also ask why it would be abraham twisting the stories? Are you telling me he wrote the bible? The accounts are written in third person perspective- showing they would have been written AFTER the events, (unless each of the characters had a personal biographer travelling around with them)- and who's to say exactly how long after?
The ram was not the only artifact found in the temple in Ur. Many artifacts were found with biblical significance. I agree- I'm sure many rams get their heads stuck in thickets but along with the other artifacts the evidence is compelling.
Was moses there at the time? Did he travel side by side with Abraham jotting down every detail or did he work on stories handed down? IF indeed he even existed or contributed to biblical writing. Let me guess.... moses was told what to write by god? But then... why would god copy older stories written over a 1000 years beforehand? Maybe he felt like telling his biography more than once- but that doesn't add up.
ALL of them?? I'll make a webpage, gimme a day.
Lol.
You be content, i'll sit here and weep.
Some people do say that but in this particular instance they're wrong. My daughter never does anything wrong. Ever.
She likes to ask questions about everything, and she learns a lot from her cousins, (who are disciplined yet continually behave badly). She's more than aware of what right and wrong is... she chooses to do right. She spilt a tub of paint on the floor- yes it's a nice carpet. She came in and said: "sorry dad i dropped the paint." In this case i could shout at her, smack her bum, send her to bed- but what would she learn? Having accidents means you get a smacked ass? She could answer back, and i could punish her for it.... but what does she learn? I find it ends up with two conflicting statements:
Respect your elders/parents
Respect must be earnt.
If im a shithead father i'd rather she tell me than order her to respect and obey me. Would you expect her to carry out my orders if they were stupid? Of course not, and yet if you are not given the choice how can you ever expect to do the right thing when nobody is around to give those orders?
I find the key is in teaching/parenting..... not in waiting until something happens then blaming them for it. Accidents will always happen- regardless of who we are, but everything else can be solved via teaching before the event. We don't let our kids get run over and then teach them the code of crossing the road. We, as parents, should be pre-emptive and teach our children in advance.
As for things like staying out late. It's bound to happen to everyone at some stage. Why do parents have a go at their children for staying out late? Is it because they disobeyed or is it because the parents worry about the childs safety? In this day and age you can't really trust anyone, (something to do with upbringing?), so i can understand the concern and worry, especially with girls. These things will inevitably happen but in such instances i'd state that teaching- showing that you're worried/why you're worried etc would be more fruitful than telling them to "go to their room" "you're grounded" etc which merely forces a communication GAP and rebellious instinct.
Sure, it might end up with me failing as a parent- but i haven't seen anyone do any better. It seems everyone turns out a scumbag regardless.
There's even parents going to such extreme lengths as disowning their children simply because their beliefs differ. If they can do that to their own children i'd hate to see what they would be like with everyone else. You'll see people come in here quite frequently asking for advice. Their parents have kicked them out for changing religion etc etc.... Everyone gives that advice, but imo it should be the parent in this forum asking for advice on how to be a parent.
This is used so often it's freaky. It's like someone actually deems this in itself as proof. Hey, no-ones got a reason to die unless it's true. Need i point to what remains of the twin towers? Does that make their beliefs valid? Does that mean everything they believe is true? It's fanaticism. Eventually the belief controls the person, instead of vice versa. There are people, even here, who are fanatical about things such as satan, claiming he has possessed every burger, every video game, and every hairdresser on the planet. There are people who are fanatical about movie stars- eventually turning into stalkers and trying to kill the person they apparently worship beyond all measure. Fanaticism is a real issue in life.
I see...
To keep things nice and simple the starting point would be text age. The Sumerian texts predate biblical texts by a big bunch of numbers.
There's a lot more to it than that though, and we can get into it if you so desire. Let me know.
"narrow minded religion" has nothing to do with this. I do feel people should at least take the time to read ancient texts such as sumerian. Tell me... what do you stand to lose? Nothing.
Perhaps because they were there at the time? What is it you said?..... "they have no reason to make this stuff up. they had no axe to grind, and they were obviously sincere in their beliefs." Anyone who then made a future copy/translation of those texts could not make it as accurate as the originals.
I didn't assume anything. It's possible based on the evidence. Assuming= thinking you've got god figured out to a 't' simply by reading one old book out of a thousand. That, my friend, is assumption.
We must also ask why it would be abraham twisting the stories? Are you telling me he wrote the bible? The accounts are written in third person perspective- showing they would have been written AFTER the events, (unless each of the characters had a personal biographer travelling around with them)- and who's to say exactly how long after?
The ram was not the only artifact found in the temple in Ur. Many artifacts were found with biblical significance. I agree- I'm sure many rams get their heads stuck in thickets but along with the other artifacts the evidence is compelling.
Was moses there at the time? Did he travel side by side with Abraham jotting down every detail or did he work on stories handed down? IF indeed he even existed or contributed to biblical writing. Let me guess.... moses was told what to write by god? But then... why would god copy older stories written over a 1000 years beforehand? Maybe he felt like telling his biography more than once- but that doesn't add up.
ALL of them?? I'll make a webpage, gimme a day.
Lol.
You be content, i'll sit here and weep.Sorry this might not be what you like, but I'm rushed right now
Originally posted by SnakeLord
Some people do say that but in this particular instance they're wrong. My daughter never does anything wrong. Ever.[\i]
I don't know your daughter, but i still find that hard to believe, as everyone does something wrong.[\B]
She likes to ask questions about everything, and she learns a lot from her cousins, (who are disciplined yet continually behave badly).[\i]
Is that bad behavior a direct corollary to discipline? Or are the kids just rebellious?[\B]
She's more than aware of what right and wrong is... she chooses to do right. She spilt a tub of paint on the floor- yes it's a nice carpet. She came in and said: "sorry dad i dropped the paint." In this case i could shout at her, smack her bum, send her to bed- but what would she learn? Having accidents means you get a smacked ass?[\i]
Dropping paint on carpet is nothing really big, as long as it wasn't done intentionally(and I have no reason to believe that she did it on purpose). I don't know how old your daughter is--I'm guessing about 8-9 range--but as she gets older she will do SOMETHING that will warrant punishment.Example: you say,"be home at 11." She gets home at 11:45. Now she disobeyed you didn't she? Wouldn't it be logical to give her a reason to not do that again?[\B]
She could answer back, and i could punish her for it.... but what does she learn? I find it ends up with two conflicting statements
Respect your elders/parents
Respect must be earnt.[\i]
Kids are supposed to respect their parents, but--being of human nature--we tend to want to test them and see how much we can get away with. Thtat's where the parents are to come in and show us who's the boss.[\B]
If im a shithead father i'd rather she tell me than order her to respect and obey me. Would you expect her to carry out my orders if they were stupid?[\i]
That's where you have to know which battles to fight. To send a kid to their room for not eating their broccoli is stupid and will coil the spring of rebellion..[\B]
Of course not, and yet if you are not given the choice how can you ever expect to do the right thing when nobody is around to give those orders?
I find the key is in teaching/parenting..... not in waiting until something happens then blaming them for it. Accidents will always happen- regardless of who we are, but everything else can be solved via teaching before the event. We don't let our kids get run over and then teach them the code of crossing the road. We, as parents, should be pre-emptive and teach our children in advance.[\i]
I agree with the pre-emptive philosophy. However what happens if they still choose wrong..[\B]
As for things like staying out late. It's bound to happen to everyone at some stage. Why do parents have a go at their children for staying out late? Is it because they disobeyed or is it because the parents worry about the childs safety? In this day and age you can't really trust anyone, (something to do with upbringing?), so i can understand the concern and worry, especially with girls. These things will inevitably happen but in such instances i'd state that teaching- showing that you're worried/why you're worried etc would be more fruitful than telling them to "go to their room" "you're grounded" etc which merely forces a communication GAP and rebellious instinct.[\i]
But if you did both, then you would show that you care, and give them an incentive not to do it again..[\B]
There's even parents going to such extreme lengths as disowning their children simply because their beliefs differ. If they can do that to their own children i'd hate to see what they would be like with everyone else. You'll see people come in here quite frequently asking for advice. Their parents have kicked them out for changing religion etc etc.... Everyone gives that advice, but imo it should be the parent in this forum asking for advice on how to be a parent. [\i]
I agree with that. No one should completely disown their children on the basis of beliefs..[\B]
This is used so often it's freaky. It's like someone actually deems this in itself as proof. Hey, no-ones got a reason to die unless it's true.[\i]
What? That whole death part doesn’t make sense..[\B]
Need i point to what remains of the twin towers? Does that make their beliefs valid? Does that mean everything they believe is true? .[\i]
I’m still lost as to what you’re talking about..[\B]
To keep things nice and simple the starting point would be text age. The Sumerian texts predate biblical texts by a big bunch of numbers.
There's a lot more to it than that though, and we can get into it if you so desire. Let me know. .[\B]
"narrow minded religion" has nothing to do with this. I do feel people should at least take the time to read ancient texts such as sumerian. Tell me... what do you stand to lose? Nothing[\i]
The exact reason I want to see them. Please send them to me..[\B]
Perhaps because they were there at the time? What is it you said?..... "they have no reason to make this stuff up. they had no axe to grind, and they were obviously sincere in their beliefs." Anyone who then made a future copy/translation of those texts could not make it as accurate as the originals.[\i]
That’s your theory. I have my own, of which you didn’t try to refute..[\B]
I didn't assume anything. It's possible based on the evidence. Assuming= thinking you've got god figured out to a 't' simply by reading one old book out of a thousand. That, my friend, is assumption.[\i]
The Bible predicts things predicts events hundred of years before they take place. They couldn’t make the stuff..[\B]
We must also ask why it would be abraham twisting the stories? Are you telling me he wrote the bible? The accounts are written in third person perspective- showing they would have been written AFTER the events, (unless each of the characters had a personal biographer travelling around with them)- and who's to say exactly how long after?[\i]
Your right, they were written afterwards, by Moses. Through God’s inspiration. The Sumerian text is similar probably because Abraham and others told the story of the Creation/Adam and Eve. Moses was just told by a divine storyteller .[\B]
The ram was not the only artifact found in the temple in Ur. Many artifacts were found with biblical significance. I agree- I'm sure many rams get their heads stuck in thickets but along with the other artifacts the evidence is compelling.[\i]
The Hebrews and Sumerians—along with other groups in that region had very similar cultures and thus probably told similar stories based upon similar situations. But that still doesn’t mean anything..[\B]
Was moses there at the time? Did he travel side by side with Abraham jotting down every detail or did he work on stories handed down? IF indeed he even existed or contributed to biblical writing Let me guess.... moses was told what to write by god? But then... why would god copy older stories written over a 1000 years beforehand? Maybe he felt like telling his biography more than once- but that doesn't add up. .[\i]
Did Moses live?
Did Mohammed live? Did Buddha live? How about Confucious? Is there real solid evidence that they existed?.
Abraham when he told those stories, would have told them truthfully. Same thing with God..[\B]
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
I never insisted that the man detailed in these stories was in fact Abram (although it very well could have been). I also think it is quite ridiculous for you to pretend to know what I believe or don't believe. How can you know what is the core of my beliefs or not? I think God connects with people on a level they can understand. If that means God appeared to the patriarchs as El, but to Moses as Yawheh then so be it.
Oh, and who is "you guys?" You magically lump me in with a bunch of people I don't even know and probably have never met nor will ever meet. The next time you think you know what I believe think again. If you want to discuss something with me you can ask me, but don't think you have some special insight into the mind of a person you haven't even met.
Moses himself called the Old Testament a psalm, otherwise known as a poem. Any good poem has meaning beyond a literal reading.
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
Once more, I fail to see why this is unexpected as Sumerian cuneiform and Semitic Akkadian are both earlier langauges than Hebrew.
I guess if you are trying to say "God didn't sit and whisper this in Moses's ear, these stories were already known at the time." Then I would say, right on. Absolutely. But I don't think that means there is nothing we can learn from those stories.
Sorry, should have been in speech marks. It was an example. A common argument, like the one you stated, was that people wouldn't die for a belief unless it were true. Nothing need be true in order to kill yourself- just your personal belief that it is true. As for your statement: "They have no reason to make this up", i can say: Neither does Stephen King.
Ok a good starting point Here
This site contains ancient texts from all over the world.
Well i did. I stated the Sumerian texts predate the biblical texts which would show the biblical texts were written AFTER the sumerian texts.
Like what exactly?
Well most obviously they did. To this day the jews still use Babylonian months of the year, (7 out of 12). For example: Tammuz, which is from the Babylonian Damuzi- a god of the underworld. Very strange to wonder why the jews have a month named after a babylonian god. I suppose not all that strange though.... after all don't we refer to the other planets by god names? (Jupiter, Mars, etc).
However i'd like to then ask what gives the bible specific credential above any of the other texts written. What makes the Sumerian gods false and the biblical god a reality?
Ah, now you're getting the hang of it.
Which god? Obviously one of them lied. The earlier sumerian gods stated a differing story to the one that came after. Different gods from all over the planet have stated completely different things. It would seem even the gods can't agree. You have absolutely no basis to claim your god is more valid than anyone elses. As for abraham... his story telling validity isn't in question. If he didn't write the book it's irrelevant whether he told the complete story accurately or not- the onus would be on the author.
Spoilsport:
Maybe so but that causes serious problems. The problem being the massive extent of difference between cultures. Example: How the world was created. If god just appeared differently to different people it would be inconsequential- surely he/they would still tell them the truth to how the planet and man was created? If not, how would you know your version had any truth to it? This goes on and on through everything thats been said. How can anyone claim more credibility than anyone else? So now we should take a look at the hundreds of creation stories and try to figure out which one is truth.
You guys- as in you guys who say "it's just a few poems." I can label you in such a way because you did say "it's just a few poems" thus you are one of those guys who says "it's just a few poems." Simple. There might not be any more of 'those guys' but you're one of them because you said it
You're the one who said it, it required no special insight on my part. You swiftly dismissed the evidence of literary similarity based on the premise that it's "just a few poems". I say it's a lot more significant than to be able to dismiss it quite so easily.
Quick turnabout? Here you say it has meaning, earlier you washed it away as "just a poem".........
My point earlier was if we can show the biblical texts to be copies of older texts then it somewhat denounces that the bible was the inspired word of the jewish god. You've now agreed and that's all it was about. I don't remember saying it wasn't worth reading or we can't learn anything from it. I merely stated a point. You and i might agree- many religious people don't.
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
I think God did tell the truth about how the planet and the universe were created. In fact, if you want some interpretations of Torahnical study from ancient Jews that give a similar story of the universe to what science gives today, I can track them down for you.
By the way, I am not saying that ALL beings humans worship as gods are God. I am simply saying that God does display himself differently to different people, and the Bible accounts for that (although you won't find it in a straight English translation).
My bad, I took "you guys" to be lumping me in with some other people you talk to. Generally you don't address a single person as "you guys". You proceeded to say that it was core to my beliefs, which seems like some kind of assumption to me. I don't think I would tell you what is core to your beliefs.
Calling something a poem is not the same as saying it has no meaning. I don't even see how someone can confuse those to ideas, unless I guess you just have something against poetry.
My statement that the Torah is a poem doesn't mean that it has no value or meaning. You are the one who tried to put words in my mouth by saying that it was all "some old poetry" which is not at all the same as calling "old testament poetry". I definitely think it has meaning and value, despite its origins. Should I automatically discard anything that has its roots in Sumer or Akkadia? The Jews are descended from Sumerians. That is a Biblical truth. If the early Jewish stories weren't similar to those of the Sumerian/Akkadian cultures it would go farther to disprove the old testament. Showing that they are the same is exactly what an educated person would expect. I would be more shocked if they were dissimilar.
Fair enough.
Which version? I could sit here and go through the one's i know step by step, and perhaps one day we should, but it would be a long issue
Look at the state of confusion a vast array of stories can create. In the post after yours Jcarl says every other religion has just been told lies by satan. It creates bias, segregation, distancing between cultures etc. A belief like that kills people. Everyone else believes in the devil, while this person's "kind" have found the true god. If it is the case, then god lied. Many would have it believed that god does not lie. Perhaps then, people would need to look again at this supposed being instead of just running along with faith.Who chooses what's a god and what's God? How does one determine whether their belief is simply in a god instead of God?
Ok, it was a slight generalisation, my apologies. However the point was merely to state that if someone believes the bible is a god inspired completely factual book, then the stories of moses, abraham, adam etc are fundamental to it.
Working from your original question:
"My question is, why should any Christian be bothered by the fact that old testament poetry is similar to traditional middle eastern poetry?"
Ok, now poetry or otherwise, the simple fact that it's older and most likely the root origins of the written work these christians believe to be uniquely inspired word of god to moses etc, wouldn't it be pertinent to suggest they really should check it out? How can anyone just accept a belief in something, (poem or otherwise), without viewing the original work? Personally i think saying "why should any christian bother" is a bit of a cop-out. Furthermore what i did find intriguing was the way you make it sound so worthless because it's a bit of poetry- If i've read it wrong, you have my apologies, but if anyone said it was the inspired word of god and i labelled it as some middle eastern poetry- they'd argue against that. Yes poetry does have a lot of meaning, but by what you wrote you might aswell have just said "why would any christian bother reading the old testament poetry when they can read the original poetry". Unless you were to imply that the older poetry was somehow less accurate than the OT poetry? It is an interesting read but then so is the older poetry. Tell me.... why shouldn't a christian bother?
I definitely think the originals have meaning and value, despite it's copies. Why shouldn't a christian bother?
Should you automatically discard those Sumerian originals because you have a copied version? One more time: Why shouldn't christians bother?
Ok, sorry one more time: why shouldn't a christian be bothered? Wouldn't the originals be as, if not more, important than the later versions?
Does he? What exactly does he make up? Take for example Salems Lot. It's a story about a town full of vampires. Ok- he made up that town, but he didn't create those vampires. They were "created" centuries ago by someone else. What he has done is elaborate and distort original ideas and creations to make something fresh and new. Undoubtedly somewhere he has read or heard of some form of vampiric legend and it has been morphed and added to with his own ideas and addons.
Now let's look at Sumerian/biblical writing. With a gap of over a millennium how would a story- fact or otherwise- be changed/morphed and added to?
Without looking at the origin, the root- you'll always have a distorted opinion of the case. Imagine if someone had never heard of vampires and read Salems Lot. That would be his sole understanding of vampiric legend. He would know nothing about it's "core design"- just his distorted version of it.
It depends entirely on motive. In this instance we can't say we know all, if any, of the facts. Many postulate the story was written by people who never even knew jesus, many postulate jesus didn't even exist, and yes, there is also a strikingly similar story to the ressurrection in Sumerian culture. Isn't it pertinent to look at all evidence pertaining to a subject? You tell me it's as simple as having faith and then try to show something without knowing all the details- BECAUSE you think the right way is to take it all as simple faith.
However, to answer the question in terms of simple faith...
If you've believed something your entire life- and spread that apparent truth your entire life, and eventually found out things weren't quite what you expected- you'd look like a dumb arse if you told everyone- and that is by far enough for you to take secrets to the grave with. People got killed in the war for simple things like not giving their rank status etc- people are indeed strange things. Doesn't that seem petty? Some guy with a gun to your head and you don't tell him your rank, name or whatever? And yet the instinct of man is to protect something- even at the loss of his own life. Pride, rebellious instinct... there's many reasons.
1,300 or so years ago, moses told some people who then went back in time by a millennium and wrote what moses had told them. Ok... :bugeye:
"For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial."
How, in the name of Zeus's butthole, does that predict the invention of sky tv?
Yes yes, something that would also happen if you flew too close to the sun, landed in a big pool of acid etc etc etc *yawn*, but kindly show me relevant passage and i'll look into it.
Relevant passages please. Furthermore, i can predict my legs won't be broken when i die. Sure it might turn out wrong, but who could argue that fact in 2000 years time?
Ah.. so simple faith that you're right, everyone else is wrong? What's the matter, not interested in truth?
I don't "believe" anything like that. I look at the evidence and then formulate a stable bunch of probabilities. If i were to just rely on "simple faith" i'd say: "Yes, none of those people existed. They're all fairy tale made up people by drug induced shepherds." You think that's crazy? Good, so do i. Now tell me again why you believe in your god...
Ah so now there's only one alternative? I gave you a different alternative based on good evidence- but instead you brush it aside to claim something with NO evidence, and claim that's the only alternative there is. Frankly i find that detestable.
Ok, so now kindly tell me what position you have to state it's every other religion that has fallen victim to satan and not yours? It's as pertinent in this scenario to say you have been fooled by the devil and will perish in flame because of it.
That's it? I have already told you of extremely similar events happening within Sumerian culture, (I will paste the texts later). Furthermore the whole 'death-ressurrection' is but something told to you that you believe on simple faith. While it's nice to think god/a god will kill himself for you and your bad doings it holds no weight in the realms of fact. I mean honestly, you think that because it says one of your trio of gods got strung up like a pig that it instantly denounces every other belief on the planet? Why must a god kill himself for it to be a valid god?
A) Tell me why dying is a prerequisite for a god.
B) None of the aforementioned were considered gods. Let's take a look at some gods instead, (I will paste the Sumerian texts shortly).
Ok, im now a hindu. That's complete truth, total fact. You're going to hell because you're not a hindu. Don't you see how absolutely worthless that is? If there is an entity/being that has such fragile human emotions such as jealousy/rage etc then it would seem imperative to "choose" the correct god instead of spending a lifetime worshipping something that doesn't exist. As such it isn't simply faith but research and fact finding. Wouldn't wanna piss the guy off and end up burning. Now give me something credible for me to choose your belief over the billion others.
Ah.... contradiction.. With the case of your bible i'm just "not looking deep enough", but in the case of anything else it is a contradiction right?
As for disproving.... Am i allowed to work on the severly ignorant premise that simple faith is enough and just state it's true for no apparent reason? Of course what i have done is shown you evidence to suggest the stories are handed down from older beliefs thus lowering the validity of your own, and yet that is just brushed aside because "it's not proof", yet on the other side of the coin proof isn't needed because we are just supposed to believe with some simple faith. You can't have it both ways.
Lol eh? Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever.
Originally posted by SnakeLord
Which version? I could sit here and go through the one's i know step by step, and perhaps one day we should, but it would be a long issue
How do you get that assumption, that God lied?
Who chooses what's a god and what's God? How does one determine whether their belief is simply in a god instead of God?
That's their own choice, if they choose polytheism or monotheism.
Does he? What exactly does he make up? Take for example Salems Lot. It's a story about a town full of vampires. Ok- he made up that town, but he didn't create those vampires. They were "created" centuries ago by someone else. What he has done is elaborate and distort original ideas and creations to make something fresh and new. Undoubtedly somewhere he has read or heard of some form of vampiric legend and it has been morphed and added to with his own ideas and addons.
Now let's look at Sumerian/biblical writing. With a gap of over a millennium how would a story- fact or otherwise- be changed/morphed and added to?
Without looking at the origin, the root- you'll always have a distorted opinion of the case. Imagine if someone had never heard of vampires and read Salems Lot. That would be his sole understanding of vampiric legend. He would know nothing about it's "core design"- just his distorted version of it.
But heres the idea: Abram tells the stories of Adam and Eve, etc. to the Sumerians and many others. From that they[Sumerians] write the Gilgamesh Epics. Now, fast forward slightly to Moses. Now God tells him the same story as Abraham told to the Sumerians. Two storytellers. Same story. All true. Just a logical theory. And you still have to accept the fact that the Bible is inspired by God.
It depends entirely on motive. In this instance we can't say we know all, if any, of the facts. Many postulate the story was written by people who never even knew jesus, many postulate jesus didn't even exist, and yes, there is also a strikingly similar story to the ressurrection in Sumerian culture. Isn't it pertinent to look at all evidence pertaining to a subject? You tell me it's as simple as having faith and then try to show something without knowing all the details- BECAUSE you think the right way is to take it all as simple faith.
However, to answer the question in terms of simple faith...
If you've believed something your entire life- and spread that apparent truth your entire life, and eventually found out things weren't quite what you expected- you'd look like a dumb arse if you told everyone- and that is by far enough for you to take secrets to the grave with.
We're talking about two different situations. I am talking about guys who initially know that they are wrong, not after they've done it for a while.
"For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial."
How, in the name of Zeus's butthole, does that predict the invention of sky tv?
Back in the Biblical times, if something happened in Jerusalem, When would Those in China or Japan, find out. Months, years, if ever. Fast forward to today. When 9/11 happened, people in Japan, China, South Africa, Northwest Territory knew in matter of minutes. How else would ,"every people, tribe, language and nation," even know about the death of the two witnesses, much less actually see them.
Relevant passages please. Furthermore, i can predict my legs won't be broken when i die. Sure it might turn out wrong, but who could argue that fact in 2000 years time?
Psalm 34:20. It would be something if somebody else predicted thousands of years before that you wouldn't have your legs broken when you died a death that routinely called for broken legs.
You see when people were crucified, after a while, their legs were broken so that they couldn't breath properly(How it worked exactly I'm not sure, but with broken legs, they couldn't lift themselves up to inhale)
Ah.. so simple faith that you're right, everyone else is wrong? What's the matter, not interested in truth?
This is the truth, whether you believe it or not.
Ah so now there's only one alternative? I gave you a different alternative based on good evidence
When was this?
but instead you brush it aside to claim something with NO evidence, and claim that's the only alternative there is. Frankly i find that detestable.
I have evidence of this; it just comes from a source you don't believe.
Ok, so now kindly tell me what position you have to state it's every other religion that has fallen victim to satan and not yours? It's as pertinent in this scenario to say you have been fooled by the devil and will perish in flame because of it.
The same reason others think that my religion is false and theirs is right. Have you ever heard of the radical Muslims call the "Christian" U.S. the Great Satan?
That's it? I have already told you of extremely similar events happening within Sumerian culture, (I will paste the texts later). Furthermore the whole 'death-ressurrection' is but something told to you that you believe on simple faith. While it's nice to think god/a god will kill himself for you and your bad doings it holds no weight in the realms of fact. I mean honestly, you think that because it says one of your trio of gods got strung up like a pig that it instantly denounces every other belief on the planet? Why must a god kill himself for it to be a valid god?
A) Tell me why dying is a prerequisite for a god.
You have to look at it in the context. We as sinners were condemned to Hell unless a Holy sacrifice--without blame--could take our place. That couldn't be a full human because we've all sinned. So God had--or rather chose--to become incarnate and take our place.
B) None of the aforementioned were considered gods. Let's take a look at some gods instead,
Really?
Ok, im now a hindu. That's complete truth, total fact. You're going to hell because you're not a hindu.
Two things
1. You would have every right to think that
2. If Hinduism were real, wouldn't my "bad" karma just make me a rat or something, not send me to Hell. Even then is the Hindu Hell the same as the Christian Hell.
Don't you see how absolutely worthless that is? If there is an entity/being that has such fragile human emotions such as jealousy/rage etc then it would seem imperative to "choose" the correct god instead of spending a lifetime worshipping something that doesn't exist. As such it isn't simply faith but research and fact finding. Wouldn't wanna piss the guy off and end up burning. Now give me something credible for me to choose your belief over the billion others.
Grace and Mercy are two things that come to mind. I am spared the torment of eternal Hell(mercy) and am granted the opportunity of Heaven(Grace)
Ah.... contradiction.. With the case of your bible i'm just "not looking deep enough", but in the case of anything else it is a contradiction right?
Not necessarily; I might not have looked deep enough in that case.
As for disproving.... Am i allowed to work on the severly ignorant premise that simple faith is enough and just state it's true for no apparent reason? Of course what i have done is shown you evidence to suggest the stories are handed down from older beliefs thus lowering the validity of your own, and yet that is just brushed aside because "it's not proof", yet on the other side of the coin proof isn't needed because we are just supposed to believe with some simple faith. You can't have it both ways.
Have you ever heard of scholasticism? You know, Faith and Reason combined.
Woah...who in the hell said Abraham told those stories to the Summerians? Where is that evidence? As I understood it, Abraham traveled with those stories from Summeria, not the other way around.
Ha! If only I was as ignorant as you, how blissful life would be. But seriously now, you've never read any of the Summerian texts, right? Obviously not, because the stories are not EXACTLY the same. They don't speak of ONE god, they speak of many. They don't promise Jesus, but they do tell a resurection story. See, you're missing the whole point, dude.
Again, just so your young mind will comprehend:
1. The Summerian texts were FIRST, and not BY Abraham.
2. They spoke of Many, many gods; not a singular God.
JD
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
The version told in the Torah. I can start up another topic at some point (I'm a little busy today and tomorrow) in which we can discuss different creation stories and the reason why I believe the one in the Torah is correct (or at least contains the truth in a poetic sense).
I think the fundamentalist Christians who believe in a 100% literal reading of everything in the Bible are more on the fringe than you (or even they) know. By and large most Christians or believers in God do not take that hard line stance you will see fundies take. It is just that the fundamentalists are the most vocal.
I have asked myself that a number of times and the simple truth is, I don't have an answer. I wish I did. When I pray, should I pray to "God". Should I pray to El, or to Yawheh, or Yawheh-El, or do it in English and just say Jehovah? I have no idea. If you believe there's a God (and I do) then you probably believe it is in your best interest to be on His good side if that is at all possible. That doesn't mean it is necessarily easy.
I think you misunderstood if you took me to be saying it was worthless. That is not at all what I was trying to get at. As said before I think it makes more sense that there are Sumerian stories in the old testament than if there weren't. If there were none it would be hard to justify the Biblical assertion that Abraham was born and raised in Ur. It would be difficult to believe that the Jews were descended from the Sumerians without seeing that evidence in their culture.
Also you twist my words a little. I said "why should it bother a Christian" bother in the sense of causing a problem for them (as in to say, stop bothering me, etc.). I didn't mean Christians shouldn't bother knowing about the history of the Bible. I think they should learn about it. Obviously I have studied some of it and I think it is important for everyone who claims to be a student of the Bible. However, I don't think Christians should be disturbed by what they find.
Once more, that's not what I said.
Same thing again.
They may well be, but Biblically the Jews are Gods chosen people and Hebrew was the language it was meant to be recorded in. There are things that can be learned from a reading of the Hebrew Torah that don't come out in any other languages. Things that cannot be translated such as letter shape and different spellings.
I would attest that to the fact that the one's who aren't hard-line are more vounerable to questioning. Like you, for example.
They have to answer questions, such as the ones posed to you, and when the facts don't match up, they either claim that the passage in question is figurative (and not literal) or that they "don't know." Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense. Fundamentalists are so brainwashed to follow exactly what the texts say, that they have to bash everyone around them with it to prevent anyone from questioning their faith. (Not that I'm right, but it's my opinion)
If that isn't clear to you, how is it so clear that a god exists?
This is what bothers you? In my profession, I have enough people to please, enough people to worry about, and enough work to get done right that I could not imagine my God would make me worry about things as trivial as how to approach him when my intentions are pure. And to be a devil's advocate, if your intentions are pure, and your heart is good, do you think a god would care what you called him or in what language you did it in?
I think you're missing the point of the story. The Jewish Bible is borderline plagurism of the Summerian texts. In Summer, they believed in many gods, and wrote of stories of interaction between men and those gods. They never mentioned a SINGULAR god doing all the speaking, or all of the damning, or any of the deeds the Jewish God is credited with doing. Like, for example, I believe that in the Summerian story, one of the Gods overheard (or something) the plan of the council (or something) to flood the Earth, and told whom later became Noah in the Bible.
The stories were very, very, very similar, but the evidence is that the Jews took it and twisted it into a single god. Do you see what I mean, man, cuz I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job of getting my point across?
Easy mistake.
You seem like a level-headed dude, and maybe discovery of an alternate truth might not hit you so hard. But think, for a second, that you were 50 years old and a life-long Christian. While you had lived by the word of god your whole life, but had never really studied up on the origins of the religion beyond what the Bible tells you. One day, you decide to have a look...you find the lack of historical proof for Jesus...you find the texts from Sumer...you begin to put common sense into play against some of the stories in the Bible, such as creation....suddenly, your religion's base is in question, and your faith is shaken.
That is enough to drive some people to suicide, spoilsport. If they really looked at the facts objectively, and really studied, they might find that the things their pastors and priests and bishops have told them their entire lives doesn't make sense. I know for me, even as a life-long doubter, it was tough to imagine a world where we might KNOW that the major organized Abrahamic religions are false. The religion my family is rooted in, Christianity, might be a hoax, and that it might even be proboble to consider it such. Scary stuff. Life-altering stuff.
Ok, but that's "Biblically." Biblically and Reality are quite a bit different. Biblically, the Sun is in the "Dome of the Earth."
And again, your statement is ignoring the question...shouldn't the fact that the Bible stories origional counterparts can be found years earlier in Sumer make the texts of Sumer more important than the later translations? If not, why not?
First, how do you know that? And secondly, if we can see what those discrepencies are in the translation, why can we not translate them? That doesn't make sense.
JD
Well by and large it seems most christians/believers just twist the writing to suit themselves. I have seen the same people use the same paragraph in completely contradictory circumstances. I have had people state a particular part is an event that actually happened and then in another sentence claim it's just a metaphor. This is why debates on these issues never really go anywhere.
And there certainly isn't a shortage of "over the top" lunatic religious nuts on this planet. From the idiots who knock on my door thinking they have the right to tell me what i must believe, and damn me to hell if i dont- to the people who fly aeroplanes into buildings. Then you have the amusing, but at the same time catastrophic, lunatics that make claims that things like pokemon are demonic, (as seen on other thread). I fear for the offspring of these people. Stupidity breeds stupidity.
I wont claim to know the answers. I don't. There are a few billion egotistical pricks who think they do, yet feel the need to damn anyone who suggests alternatives, or doesn't conform to their specific "truths".
Pray to god, maybe it will tell you. :bugeye:
It would depend which one/s. Some are nice, some- like the biblical god, are real dickheads. I don't take bribes. I won't worship something so i can gain anything like eternal life, or to stop myself from burning. The only thing that get's my respect/worship is something that earns it. If god asked me to kill my child for him, i'd tell him to fuck off. I know, and have spoken, to many who would- in an instant. I find that sickening. What i see is mass scale cowardice. One of the most often use words from the bible that has relevance here: "fear".
That's why it should bother a christian. It's about truth, not turning a blind eye to it simply to run along with your faith in highly distorted versions.They don't bother, they're not bothered. The only reason they're not bothered, is because they don't bother. Both are related.
Read above.
Yeah but they don't bother because they're not bothered, and they're not bothered because they don't bother. When someone questions things like the use of multiple gods in genesis, they resort to ridiculous comments about a being that splits in three yada yada instead of looking at the historical evidence. They don't bother, they're not bothered, they're right- end of story.
Exactly what do you mean by "disturbed"?
That didn't answer the question. Naturally the jews would be gods chosen people if they were the ones who wrote it. It's hardly likely the jews would write about god claiming he was god of chinese people. However, the stories are still from older texts- adapted to suit the different culture. Anyway, answer the question if you feel like doing so.
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
to JDawg
That is a totally random statement, first of all, I don't HAVE to a damn thing. Secondly, when have the facts not matched up? I am logical person, a critical thinker. You may say that it is impossible for someone who believes in God to be that, but then you would just be being ignorant and closed minded. I do well in physics, math, and other sciences. I know how to see logic and when facts to don't match up, I change my views.
Personal experience and study of the torah.
At this point you don't have a clue what I am talking about. The question is are Yawheh, El, Yawheh-El different Gods? They seem to have different attitudes at times, etc. My personal belief is no, they aren't, but it is a valid question.
Plagiarism is such a misused word in the context you are putting it in. Also, I am well aware Summerians believed in many gods. So what? Honestly at this point I am convinced you don't really get what I am talking about. Either I am not good at describing my beliefs or you didn't read all of my posts. It doesn't matter if the Summerians believed in many Gods or not. El (the original name of the Hebrew God) was worshipped as the head of the Caananite pantheon. They practiced henotheism (belief in many gods, worship of One). I already know that and don't care.
I agree that it is life altering to study and understand this stuff, but I think it is POSITIVE. I don't think that learning is ever bad. If it shakes some people, then it does, but they probably needed shaking. Anyone who takes anything solely on the word of mom/dad/pastor/bishop/etc even when they find a lot of evidence to the contrary nees to be shaken up. And as I said, I don't believe the texts from Sumer in any way invalidate the Bible.
Show me texts written by anyone who used those texts to come to an understanding of the big bang at around or before 0-800 CE and I'll say they are as important or more important. Show me texts of someone coming to belief in a 10-dimensional space time continuum (exactly as string theory predicts) before 1000 CE and I'll believe they are more important. I don't think you will find someone who understood these things based on those tablets. People did, using the Torah and the Q'ballah.
See above.
to SnakeLord
I wouldn't go so far as to say most. I think saying some would be closer to accurate. You also have to say, "what constitutes twisting?" If someone actually believes their interpretation is right then are they twisting? It is possible for two people to read the same thing and come away with a different understanding.
Well, that's just like... your opinion, man.
I don't understand how you get from what I said to here, so I can't really respond. Obviously you think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong and we'll never agree. I know the Summerian texts came before and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.... I can't even see WHY you think it should besides you not wanting me or anyone else to believe.
There is no answer to the question you asked because what is important or not is a matter of preference. Newtonian physics is older than quantum mechanics. Maybe we should throw out quantum mechanics, newtonian physics is more important. My best friends 72 dodge aspen is older than my 2002 chevy prizm. I'll just get rid of my prism, because his is more important, yeah right.
That is a totally random statement, first of all, I don't HAVE to a damn thing. Secondly, when have the facts not matched up? I am logical person, a critical thinker. You may say that it is impossible for someone who believes in God to be that, but then you would just be being ignorant and closed minded. I do well in physics, math, and other sciences. I know how to see logic and when facts to don't match up, I change my views.
Personal experience and study of the torah.
At this point you don't have a clue what I am talking about. The question is are Yawheh, El, Yawheh-El different Gods? They seem to have different attitudes at times, etc. My personal belief is no, they aren't, but it is a valid question.
Plagiarism is such a misused word in the context you are putting it in. Also, I am well aware Summerians believed in many gods. So what? Honestly at this point I am convinced you don't really get what I am talking about. Either I am not good at describing my beliefs or you didn't read all of my posts. It doesn't matter if the Summerians believed in many Gods or not. El (the original name of the Hebrew God) was worshipped as the head of the Caananite pantheon. They practiced henotheism (belief in many gods, worship of One). I already know that and don't care.
I agree that it is life altering to study and understand this stuff, but I think it is POSITIVE. I don't think that learning is ever bad. If it shakes some people, then it does, but they probably needed shaking. Anyone who takes anything solely on the word of mom/dad/pastor/bishop/etc even when they find a lot of evidence to the contrary nees to be shaken up. And as I said, I don't believe the texts from Sumer in any way invalidate the Bible.
Show me texts written by anyone who used those texts to come to an understanding of the big bang at around or before 0-800 CE and I'll say they are as important or more important. Show me texts of someone coming to belief in a 10-dimensional space time continuum (exactly as string theory predicts) before 1000 CE and I'll believe they are more important. I don't think you will find someone who understood these things based on those tablets. People did, using the Torah and the Q'ballah.
See above.
to SnakeLord
I wouldn't go so far as to say most. I think saying some would be closer to accurate. You also have to say, "what constitutes twisting?" If someone actually believes their interpretation is right then are they twisting? It is possible for two people to read the same thing and come away with a different understanding.
Well, that's just like... your opinion, man.
I don't understand how you get from what I said to here, so I can't really respond. Obviously you think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong and we'll never agree. I know the Summerian texts came before and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.... I can't even see WHY you think it should besides you not wanting me or anyone else to believe.
There is no answer to the question you asked because what is important or not is a matter of preference. Newtonian physics is older than quantum mechanics. Maybe we should throw out quantum mechanics, newtonian physics is more important. My best friends 72 dodge aspen is older than my 2002 chevy prizm. I'll just get rid of my prism, because his is more important, yeah right.
Yep.
What was it you were saying a little while ago? Ah yes...
"There are things that can be learned from a reading of the Hebrew Torah that don't come out in any other languages."
There are things that can be learned from a reading of the Sumerian texts that don't come out as good in the biblical conversion.
It's about understanding is it not? It seems you would find the hebrew torah more pertinent to read than any translated copies because details get lost. The same applies to Sumerian.
This applies to your next comment aswell. I hasten to add that dodge's and chevy's have no bearing here.
Can you please quote some or provide a link, I'm interested. Thnx.
No need to flex your manhood, spoilsport. This is a discussion, not a pissing contest.
Ok, how about in Genesis when God seperates dark and light, as if they had nothing to do with the Sun. And on top of that, in the Bible, light exists without the Sun, when the FACT is that the Sun is what provides the light.
In the Bible they claim that there are two "Waters" in the world: One on earth, and one outside the "Dome."
Also, in the Bible, it is never mentioned that the Sun is a star. It's a heavenly body "to rule the day." You would imagine that God would know how the universe works, and what the Sun is. Considering that he's supposedly teaching us what everything is, you would think he'd mention it.
I don't believe it's impossible at all. I know many intelligent people whom believe in God, such as my parents. A religious faith, however, can only be achived through fear, brainwashing, or ignorance. If you aren't ignorant, (And I can tell you are a smart dude) you must either be so afraid of death that the only comfort you can take is eternal life, or you were taught religion from your youth. No one who seeks answers will "Find God." Too much can be explained for one to find a solid foundation for God. All that is left is "Well...maybe."
Ok, here's why that's a rediculous statement:
"Personal experience" will not be sufficient. I have seen ghosts, and UFOs. They contradict each other, but I'm SURE I witnessed both.
And...
If you searched for proof of God in the Torah, then you're not being fair to yourself. When I want to look into the quality of a product, I don't rely on it's infomercial.
If you are a Jew, Christian, Catholic, Jehova's Witness, or a believer in any other branch of Abrahamic religion, then no, you cannot believe they are.
How is it a valid question? You haven't even looked into the question of "Does God exist" yet!
That depends on the intentions of Abraham.
Because your religion is based on theirs .
I'm reading your posts in their entirety, and getting them completely. You just don't seem to get what I'M saying.
Yes it does. The fact that the Sumerian religion is older than yours means yours came AFTERWARDS. They didn't just believe, they worshiped many gods. Yes, there was a single god above the rest, but they still worshiped all of them. And seeing as Abraham came from Sumer, your religion must be based on theirs. Hence, you should also worship many gods...
...but your book says not to.
I agree, but it's disturbing to find things that throw God into question.
I agree with you COMPLETELY. See, I knew you weren't stupid!
Sure they do. The stories are strikingly similar, and since the founder of your religion came from the home of the Sumer religion, one comes to the conclusion that he either changed it, or it was changed, before hitting the printing press to become the Torah.
Even if the Sumer texts AREN'T the origionals of the Old Testament, the similarities in the stories prove that Creation and Flood stories were commonplace back then, when inquiring minds yearned for answers about thier origins. (It's almost as if finding that Judaism WASN'T influenced by Sumer is more damning to religion as a whole. At least if they are related, then the possibility of God existing is plausable)
Ok, in this case, I really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Now I wonder just how intelligent you are, because you are so far off at this point...
Theories can change, as can laws. But, in the case of God, all the stories claim to profess the Ultimate Truth right from the beginning of time; there is no flexibility. In that case, you must find the FIRST source in order to be closest to the truth. When you find that there was a religion older than Judaism, and it was strikingly simliar in it's hyms and narratives, you must wonder if Judaism was just a Chinese Whisper of the origional religion.
JD
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
The Sun makes light, the Sun doesn't make "the" light. What the Bible says more or less is, God invented light.
Also, I don't see why the Bible has to mention that the Sun is the star or why it should. Just because the Sun is a star doesn't mean it has the same function as a star to people. I agree that God knows how the universe works, but I don't see why the fact the Sun is a star would be of any interest to ancient Jews. As I've also said, I don't believe God sat and looked over Moses shoulder making corrections as he wrote the Bible.
I was taught a religion from youth, and you know what, the religion I was taught from youth I don't even believe in. At least not as it was taught. I was raised Southern Baptist and my beliefs are not even similar to those beliefs anymore. I don't hate gay people, I don't think dancing is a sin, and premarital sex is fine with me. I do believe in God, but I don't believe He has the characteristics they attribute to Him, because I haven't seen them.
How do they contradict each other exactly? If you are saying that I can't rely on my personal experience to judge what is real or not (and you are) then why should I believe anything is real. Everything we know or can know is based on personal experience. Sure we can get philosophical and say we don't know any of it's real, or ask what real means in the first place, but that is pointless. Personal experience is ALL we have. We percieve only what our brain makes us percieve.
I don't think you understand. I figure if someone was able to read the Torah and come up with principles that modern science agrees with based on only a reading of that book, then it means something. You may disagree of course.
Maybe it hasn't occured to you yet that I don't exactly see eye to with other Christians on a lot of issues. However, Christian means Christ like, and since I think Jesus set about the best example anyone could of how to live, and I try to follow that example, I call myself a Christian.
Yeah I have. You act like I've never asked myself that question. What thinking person does not ask that question? I seriously think you have a skewed view of Christians if you think they never doubt or never wonder if God exists. Everyone does at some point in life. That is just how it is.
Abraham would have passed on the stories by word of mouth. Cultural stories important native to the land he grew up in. Let's make a modern day parable of this. Let's say I pack up my stuff right now. I take my girlfriend and my family and move to some uninhabited polynesian island. I tell my children about johnny appleseed, george washington, the monica lewinsky trial, huck finn, what have you. Many generations down the line my descendants have their own language, spork. They record these stories in their own language. Did they plagiarize? Not at all. Sure the story will be Huck Finn, but they didn't plagiarize it. They don't even know who Mark Twain is. That is the old testament for you, or at least the first five books of it.
Random assumptions about what I believe again.
The Canaanites, whose religion Judeaism is most closely based on did not worship many Gods. I have secular sources if you want them. They worshipped El and only El. Later in history El fell by the wayside and they worshipped Baal and only Baal.
I don't have time right now, but I will start a new thread tomorrow or Saturday showing how certain Jewish scholars around the turn of the millenium theorized a universe that began with the big bang based on the Torah. I will also find Caballist sources stating a belief in a 10 dimensional universe before the invention of string theory.
spoilsport
Registered Senior Member
Yeah, I'll probably make it a new thread.