The Confused Athiest

[iceaura]

Because, contrary to the farce that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster, there's just as much anecdotal evidence for Zeus as there is for the Abrahamic deity.
”
perhaps for one who has glossed over the issue of normative descriptions ...

Unlike Kipling, who immortalized them in his social group (formed by religion, we must assume), the Bandar-Log.

 

[Michael]

Historically there's a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting the earth is flat.

Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer, her whole family went to the Church of Scientology and prayed for her swift recovery and by the next week she was cured. All praise Xenu the Mighty and Benevolent Intergalactic OverLord.

 

[Raithere]

Reasonably, it makes no logical sense to have a universe based on cause and effects that exists without reason.

Only if you presume that cause and effect precede the Universe.

Or, to put a twist on the same question, why does god exist?

There are questions even god can't answer.

~Raithere

 

[stretched]

He he, welcome back Raithere! Parole? Seriously, glad to see some decent input once again.

 

[Raithere]

He he, welcome back Raithere! Parole? Seriously, glad to see some decent input once again.

Thanks! Yes, at least it feels like parole. I thought I'd come back and have some fun.

~Raithere

P.S.
No one brings anything small into a bar around here.
They all started out with bad directions.

 

[stretched]

PS

And the girl behind the counter has a tattooed tear,
One for every year he's away she said..

He he. Thanks for understanding.

 

[S.A.M.]

It makes perfect logical sense, once you discard the assumption of design.

Or, if that was too obvious to be significant, notice that humans supply the cause and effect aspect. It's a way of comprehending that saves on the processing power - a good strategy for a brain of limited size and complexity dealing with a universe of somewhat greater scale. .

So you're saying that there is no cause-effect? Its just an artificial paradigm? The patterns we see are an artifact of our mind? Caused by it?

Only if you presume that cause and effect precede the Universe.

Or, to put a twist on the same question, why does god exist?

There are questions even god can't answer.

~Raithere

I don't know what exists outside the universe, so I could not define it.

I'm limiting myself to the universe, or what we know of the universe.

Its "natural order" and "physical laws"

 

[John99]

Because, contrary to the farce that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster, there's just as much anecdotal evidence for Zeus as there is for the Abrahamic deity.

That is somewhat true but it depends on some factors too. It is hard to understand how people immerse themselves into religious belief and habitual behaviour but everyone is different.

 

[Raithere]

I don't know what exists outside the universe, so I could not define it.
I'm limiting myself to the universe, or what we know of the universe.
Its "natural order" and "physical laws"

Indeed. The fact is, however, that we know that what we observe daily as cause and effect, even the notions of time, space, and position are emergent properties of the universe. At the atomic level as well as at high speeds and densities such familiar concepts as order and causality no longer apply.

In such context, the demand for a preceding cause is simply a nonsense question. To quote Hawking, "...asking what happened before the Big Bang is vaguely like asking what is north of the North Pole."

This, of course, is only one of a number of possible answers that satisfy the demand of a first cause. I tend to prefer it because it is a rather well grounded hypothesis rather than mere conjecture.

~Raithere

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: My first thought was to vote that I had better things to do, but as I got to thinking about it I realized that I needed to be intellectually proactive and opt for the personal awareness and the belief that there is no god.

Sure, it's so much easier to ignore the opposition between theists and atheists, but that is not the way to educate others who believe in false deities. I believe that we should be responsible to help others who have been blindly led into a life of lies.

I would ask the atheists on this forum to not be apathetic to the opportunities we have to shed light on the fallacies of religions. I'm sure none of us has the "time," but I think it is important that we take the time to speak the truth to the blind ones.

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe in anything upon insufficient evidence." ~ W.K. Clifford

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"A wise man makes more opportunities than he finds." ~ Francis Bacon, 1561-1626, English Philsopher

 

[spidergoat]

Indeed. The fact is, however, that we know that what we observe daily as cause and effect, even the notions of time, space, and position are emergent properties of the universe. At the atomic level as well as at high speeds and densities such familiar concepts as order and causality no longer apply.

In such context, the demand for a preceding cause is simply a nonsense question. To quote Hawking, "...asking what happened before the Big Bang is vaguely like asking what is north of the North Pole."

This, of course, is only one of a number of possible answers that satisfy the demand of a first cause. I tend to prefer it because it is a rather well grounded hypothesis rather than mere conjecture.

~Raithere

Exactly, physics has revealed the existence of uncaused events.

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed. The fact is, however, that we know that what we observe daily as cause and effect, even the notions of time, space, and position are emergent properties of the universe. At the atomic level as well as at high speeds and densities such familiar concepts as order and causality no longer apply.

In such context, the demand for a preceding cause is simply a nonsense question. To quote Hawking, "...asking what happened before the Big Bang is vaguely like asking what is north of the North Pole."

This, of course, is only one of a number of possible answers that satisfy the demand of a first cause. I tend to prefer it because it is a rather well grounded hypothesis rather than mere conjecture.

~Raithere

Exactly, physics has revealed the existence of uncaused events.

So you mean at the atomic level, none of us are alive?

 

[iceaura]

So you're saying that there is no cause-effect? Its just an artificial paradigm? The patterns we see are an artifact of our mind? Caused by it?

No. They just don't exist elsewhere than in our representations.

Analogy: rainbows - artifacts or realities ?

So you mean at the atomic level, none of us are alive?

At the atomic level, none of us are.

 

[spidergoat]

So you mean at the atomic level, none of us are alive?

I don't understand the question. At the atomic level, atoms are atoms. Life is a macro-scale phenomenon.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hmm so theoretically there is no difference between me and a rock.

 

[spidergoat]

What sort of difference did you expect?

 

[S.A.M.]

The kind that lets you know if you are not a rock, I guess.

Does a rock know its a rock, I wonder.

After all, my being a live person is merely a representation of macrolevel atomic structure as interpreted by me.

 

[Kadark]

I sell rocks.

 

[lightgigantic]

What sort of difference did you expect?

erm, quite an elementary one since a person achieving the status of "living" has more going for them than one rated as "dead as a doornail (or rock, as the case may be)"

 

[spidergoat]

Living things obviously have properties that aren't rock-like, but we are made of basically the same stuff. Matter and energy have what we call emergent properties. Simplicity begets complexity. From relatively simple interactions on a small scale, complex structures emerge on a macro scale. I knew you would say something like "but I'm not like a rock". Well, a piece of ice is not like the matter in the center of the sun, so matter can be arranged into all sorts of phenomenon.