The conditionality of Gods Love

Quantum Quack said:
what I realy want to know is why should I lessen my existence on someones word.

I unnderstand that you can not know how liberating it is to be free from the ideology and dogma of an ancient belief system. a bit like knowing the world is a sphere rather than flat...

liberated from the oppression of someone elses words.........to stand naked to this universe in love with this universe, free of shame and guilt that some one else wants me to feel........
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What exactly is the problem here?
What drove you to bring up this debate?
An uncertainty?


If this

Quantum Quack said:
liberated from the oppression of someone elses words.........to stand naked to this universe in love with this universe, free of shame and guilt that some one else wants me to feel........
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is really so doubtlessly true for you -- then why talk about it?
Why the concerns?
Why the comparisons with other posters here?


I know that when I feel like talking about something, it is because it perplexes me, in one way or another. I don't talk about things that I feel fine about -- unless the conversation is explicitly about things that make one feel fine.

But this thread is obviously not a pleasant discourse over goodies. So far, quite opposing views have been shared, even some harsh words. Things must be serious enough then.


If you are so *sure* of this about yourself:

Quantum Quack said:
liberated from the oppression of someone elses words.........to stand naked to this universe in love with this universe, free of shame and guilt that some one else wants me to feel........
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then why ask this:

Quantum Quack said:
what I realy want to know is why should I lessen my existence on someones word.
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??


On one hand, you say that you have already dismissed the Christian notion of God, yet you keep on asking questions about it.
Either you haven't really dismissed it or are not sure about it, or something else is the matter here.
 
Rosa it is fair to say I use this logic to, the preacher needs to take a look at what he's preaching becasue somewhere in amongst his words is a need to have a look at him self.....I am not sure what this method is called.....

It is true I am trying to show why there is so much angst from others to the church.

What it is that is fundamental in theirs and mine declaration of religious and philosophical contradiction.

I see the church in a sort of bi-focal perspective, on one hand I respect the intention to love and to be generous but on the other I can't abide what I consider to be the ideologically entrenched notions that amount to self abuse.

So I guess I am trying to find a way in my mind that these two almost contra perpectives can co-exist.

And I admit I am having difficulty doing so.....

The reason for this thread was to ask for discussion on the contradiction that I find most appalling and that is that according to some God's love is conditional.
Conditional on believing in a state of inferior creation.

This I firmly believe is a man made conditionality and not one that rests with God or one that God would condone.

How can this polarisation of conditionality and unconditionality can be reconciled I have failed to discover so far.
 
It might be reasonably accurate to say this conditionality is man-made. We have set the parameters in which we allow God into our lives, and the measure to which we are prepared to follow Him. This is none other than sin. Maybe that's the reconciliation you're looking for? The prodigal son narrative.

God certainly won't condone everything in the name of love just so we could call it "unconditional".
 
It might be reasonably accurate to say this conditionality is man-made. We have set the parameters in which we allow God into our lives, and the measure to which we are prepared to follow Him. This is none other than sin. Maybe that's the reconciliation you're looking for? The prodigal son narrative.

God certainly won't condone everything in the name of love just so we could call it "unconditional".
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ahh jenya ...this is why I like chatting with you.....

a question:

Is the churches love for God conditional or unconditional?
 
Well, churches as institutions don't love... people do, and churches facilitate. God wishes our love for Him to be seen in our actions towards each other, so it should be unconditional.
Romans 8:37
... in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​
I just think our capacity to love is hampered by many things, our own suffering included. But if God embodies that unconditional love, to what extent is it accessible to those who reject Him?
 
therefore it can be said that it is only our definition of that which is God whether it be the universe or Love that hinders our uniion.

For me I see God as a multiplistic sentience where as for you I guess you see him as single minded. This I think is the nub of contention.

The universe is a living organism with a huge diversity of sentience, from lesser animals to mankind. All those sentiences make up the mind of God.

Therefore we are Part of God already and every now and then the God to be shows up in the form of prophets and miracles......(but this is another story)

I believe that the single minded God that you speak of is yet to be........the evolution of God from multiplistic to single sentience.

In some ways religion is ahead of the times...ha...now there's another perpective.... :D
 
There are some fundamental problems with your theory, but I'll leave you and M*W to work them out. For one, it's somewhat naive to extend our life on earth to the universe and call it a living organism - with us as the "brain" or "heart" or whatever. We're not even living up to the definition ourselves.

What if we aren't part of God, and God is exactly who He says he is - the wholly Other?
 
What if we aren't part of God, and God is exactly who He says he is - the wholly Other?
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"What if it is your belief that you are separate from God that keeps from being with God"
 
Ha! Nice try, but no cigar. What separated me from God was my blind addiction to the purely physical world - since God is Spirit. What connects me with God is my spiritual life, a faith that stretches beyond the grave, which is in conflict with all physical desires that demand immediate gratification. Christ, who entered the trappings of this world to serve it, mediates on my behalf for my salvation so I could have citizenship of God's world through Him.

Believe me, I know what separates me from God, and it's not my faith in Him.
 
Jenyar,

Have given some thought to my behaviour in this thread and I thought I might try to explain.

Whilst I personally have had very little ideological distortion by the Church although I must admit I nearly threw up over what a pastor did a long time ago, my wife however did.

An example of what she endured as a child and early adult was the indoctrination of having to shower with underwear on.
Her devout Brazilian family believed that it was a sin to view her own body. For the best part of 25 years she never saw her own body other than parts that would normally be public.

Other very strange practices occured which I wont detail here.

I am sure she is not the only one to suffer these inhumane practices......other religions show similar draconian attitudes.

The problem I have is not so much with the enlightened or modern Church but with the 3rd world country type church that is maintained as correct and justified in beliefs and superstitions that to me are preposterous.

Jenyar I would consider you to be a modern Christian, and I think you would deplore some of these behaviours.

If I have been too strong in my responses and insinuations I appologise but unfortunatley I have to deal with the trauma that the church has inspired in my wife every day and I was in some way expressing my frustration....

QQ
 
this is why I feel that full acceptance of self, leads to full acceptance of others which leads then to acceptance of God.......this does not mean that we condone bad behavour but it allows us to accept it and deal with it in a way that removes the nastiness as we understand it's nature.
 
I'm truly sorry to hear what you and your wife had to go through. People who can't accept themselves are often drawn to the church for acceptance, unfortunately, their devotion to the church frequently only serves to cover up their real reasons for being there. I have come across very little of those draconian practices, although I've read about them as much as anyone. I've practically grown up in the church, and never has anything happened to come inbetween me and God. And South Africa is technically a third world country!

You are right, of course: a healthy attitude about yourself leads will translate into a healthy attitude towards others, and towards God. I don't condone unhealthy atitudes under any circumstances, but I also don't consider them to be indicative of the attitude God called us to. The Bible certainly doesn't teach us to be ashamed of ourselves - on the contrary.

The only shame is sin, and that is something Christ remedied. He wanted us to have confidence in our ability to know God and make peace with each other again. It is when people loose sight of Christ, and take pride in their own faith that their faith becomes smaller, ironically, and then they start looking for remedies, rules and compensations to attain what Christ has already attained for them. They spin themselves into paranoid coccoons of "purity" and think of themselves as "children of light" instead of being "a light to the world". That's simply deplorable. That's why I try to increase people's faith in themselves and in humnanity as far as I go. What Christ has made available to me is certainly available to everyone.
 
Jenyar said:
I'm truly sorry to hear what you and your wife had to go through. People who can't accept themselves are often drawn to the church for acceptance, unfortunately, their devotion to the church frequently only serves to cover up their real reasons for being there. I have come across very little of those draconian practices, although I've read about them as much as anyone. I've practically grown up in the church, and never has anything happened to come inbetween me and God. And South Africa is technically a third world country!

You are right, of course: a healthy attitude about yourself leads will translate into a healthy attitude towards others, and towards God. I don't condone unhealthy atitudes under any circumstances, but I also don't consider them to be indicative of the attitude God called us to. The Bible certainly doesn't teach us to be ashamed of ourselves - on the contrary.

The only shame is sin, and that is something Christ remedied. He wanted us to have confidence in our ability to know God and make peace with each other again. It is when people loose sight of Christ, and take pride in their own faith that their faith becomes smaller, ironically, and then they start looking for remedies, rules and compensations to attain what Christ has already attained for them. They spin themselves into paranoid coccoons of "purity" and think of themselves as "children of light" instead of being "a light to the world". That's simply deplorable. That's why I try to increase people's faith in themselves and in humnanity as far as I go. What Christ has made available to me is certainly available to everyone.
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I think you show a very healthy attitude Jenyar. You have increased my understanding, thank you.
 
Jenyar, thanks for your sympathies, I was reminded of another friend story

Do you recall some time ago in another thread I asked the question:
Does one need to know of Jesus to be a Christian?

Many years ago a Girl friend of mine lived in Fiji. She was born there and lived a very rudementary life growing up and eventually migrating here -Australia.

Any way the story she told me about Jesus, is this.

As Maya was an Indian Fijian her religion was very much Hindu and her language was Hindi. Part of their religious ritual was on a certain day place food and flower offerings to the Gods.

One year when she was about 18 she decided to place an extra offering to a god she had heard of called Jesus. Later after she found out who Jesus was she considered herself to be a Christian Hindu.
So my question about becoming a Christian with out knowing of Christ is an unusual yes.
 
Interesting story! You know that this is what happened when Paul was in Athens:
Acts 17:23
"Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."​
He essentially told them they were on the right track, but that they needed to know more!
 
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