The conditionality of Gods Love

Quantum Quack said:
As an aside to the topic.......

Actually in my research in to the hmmmmm.....paranormal...........hmmmmm that is exactly what we are doing when expressing our love for someone else in the act of physical love making.

WE are actually and literally making love.......this energy is being created by our lovemaking.......the synergy of two persons making love generates this energy.....
and if the love making creates a child then the lovemaking has now created a means to propagate the ability to love......by creating another love making entity....
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Hello QQ,

This is interesting, and perhaps believable. I was just trying to get across that Jenyar's example was good, as sex is an aspect of human love.

But perhaps a more accurate example of unconditional love in human beings is a mother's or father's love for their child. Obviously not all mother's or father's offer this unconditional love though.

So God's love for us is like a father's love for his child, but if the child wants nothing to do with their father then out of love the father would let go of his child.

Dave
 
Athelwulf said:
Apparently, it turns out that God's love is conditional.

Here's what I'm getting from all this: Ya have to ask for His love. Ya also have to ask for whatever you may need to survive, and if you love Him, He will give it to you.

No one has to ASK me for my love to GET my love. Also, if someone I love is somehow suffering and there's something I can do to stop their suffering, they won't be suffering for long!

It seems kinda twisted if God just won't stop yer suffering out of His sheer love for ya!
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I think I understand your cousin's line of thinking, but it isn't absolutely correct. Jesus didn't ask whether we want to be saved - or loved - He simply gave his life to everyone. God gave his life to everyone, including the suffering - not just those starving in Africa, but all over the world. Physical needs can be allayed for a short while, but since the physical world is by definition decaying, with or without food and shelter, it won't be a permanent solution. He does feed everyone in Africa: with hope - real hope. Everybody who feed and clothe the poor are missionaries. They are doing God's will.

God presented a permanent solution, of which those who love are a part. Your concern about people's physical well-being should reflect God's concern for their spiritual well-being. In other words: do something about it. You are the answer to their prayers. The real sin is people not doing God's will, that's why there are still people suffering.
 
Jenyar said:
Physical needs can be allayed for a short while, but since the physical world is by definition decaying, with or without food and shelter, it won't be a permanent solution.
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Why is the physical world decaying. And can't He stop it from decaying, so there would be no more suffering.

He does feed everyone in Africa: with hope - real hope.
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There are still many people who aren't fed and, therefore, die helplessly.
 
That's a question you should ask scientists, I don't know why. I guess it has something to do with nature not being God, in other words: it can't create life. But I'm concerned with the things that doesn't decay over time. People would probably still inflict suffering whether they knew they were going to die or not, at least the way we are now. It's a mystery why people are so destructive, but that has something to do with our relationship with God (or the lack of it). That's someting we can work at.

God is stopping it from decaying, though: first by providing us with an opportunity to reverse the effects, and secondly by providing a "new heaven and earth". That way, the physical is clothed with the spiritual. It's like being born into a new world, or to use Christian terminology: born again. But that means we should join together and stop letting people die helplessly. We can show them in this broken world what to expect in the next, healed world. The irony is, poor and suffering people are less inclined to reject that hope than those who have everything they need in this life. They only expect a finger reached out to them, crumbs falling from the table (Matthew 15:27) - wealthy people will settle for nothing less than God himself.
 
I think we sometimes expect God to take over our responsibilities. We want God to take care of everything but our "freedom" to take care of ourselves. As long as He keeps our bubble intact, we're content with keeping Him out of it. Think about it, if most people react like that, wouldn't God end up breaking more wills by interfering than giving us our (supposedly noble) wills?

As long as everything goes according to our wishes, we don't think we need God, and when it doesn't, we feel let down by Him. When we ask God, "but what can I possibly have that can change the world?", isn't the accurate reply usually, "More than you're willing to give"?
 
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Jenyar said:
I think we sometimes expect God to take over our responsibilities. We want God to take care of everything but our "freedom" to take care of ourselves. As long as He keeps our bubble intact, we're content with keeping Him out of it. Think about it, if most people react like that, wouldn't God end up breaking more wills by interfering than giving us our (supposedly noble) wills?

As long as everything goes according to our wishes, we don't think we need God, and when it doesn't, we feel let down by Him. When we ask God, "but what can I possibly have that can change the world?", isn't the accurate reply usually, "More than you're willing to give"?
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Hello Jenyar,

I agree to a large extent. Luke 15:11-32 sums "us" up to a tee, in my opinion.

Dave
 
No one has to ASK me for my love to GET my love. Also, if someone I love is somehow suffering and there's something I can do to stop their suffering, they won't be suffering for long!
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Maybe this is one of those hard lessons for humanity to learn...youknow if every one felt the same way as the above quote then we wouldn't need to ask god tohelp us...as we could damn well do it on our own......

has any one ever bothered to ask God if there is some thing we could do for him (directly)

Like "hey god, I hope you are well and if there's anything I can do for you just let me know....."

another one of my perspectives

" I happen to hold the belief that 'God' has been very very sick and of course who cares......God is supposed to be invincable, perfection.....but hey, even he can get sick...." and if mankind is in the image of God you can see just how sick he is and has been......."
 
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That's a useful analogy, but I wouldn't take it too far. Mankind certainly is very sick (in both senses of the word), but we don't like medicine - we'd rather damn well get well on our own ;).
 
M*W: The god humans have created doesn't exist. It's the overall image they wish for in a father figure. But, god as I understand it may have been the dynamic force that created the universe, but it's not a being that loves or feels any kind of emotion, and certainly a force that doesn't judge us humans!
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just to clarify my position on defining god.
 
Freud. So you think "God" is a compensation for what we lack on earth, and at the same time circumscribing what we already have on earth?
 
hmmmm...no I guess what iam saying is there is a vast difference between preconceptions of what Gid is and the actual reality of what god is....

The universe is essentially unconditional in it's existence, nature is unconditional in it's existence. It have needs to survive but there is no obligation on the universe to provide foir those needs....suffice to say that those needs are normally met with out obligation. Thus unconditionality is teh nature of the universe and all life. It is in the main only a manmade subjective creation that conditionality exists.

Mankind is great at creating conditions and ultimations etc but the universe offeres no such input. It is.... only that it is.

The universe loves as nature loves as the sun loves etc and all is unconditional. The universe places no condition on it's benevolence or it's natural violence.

It is only man that places conditions on love and that is our challenge......because if love is conditional it wil ultimately fail. because it is in conflict with natural love which is unconditional.
 
God is also undonditional in His existence, but we are good at creating conditions for that too. In that sense, we are just as likely to create our own molds for god, as we are likely to define "God" accurately. Fortunately God chose to reveal himself to us, and one of the clearest (and most useful) revelations was love. Would we even know what unconditional love should be like if we couldn't understand its spiritual dimension?

To say the universe loves is a bit unfair towards the concept of love. If the universe truly "loved", we would have no problems with God having created it, as we do today - mainly because people purposely confuse God and nature.
 
jenya, if you wish to keep God in the clouds some where that's fine with me....i have no wish to change your POV.

for me however "God" is very much a physical reality including all that is deemed spiritual......also a physical reality.....made of real stuff.....nature...energy..no exceptions.....this is my POV.

love also is a physical energy...not unlike the energy from the sun. it is also a force not unlike the gravity of the universe. And in all cases unconditional.
 
I don't wish to keep God "in the clouds" either. But that notion actually developed because people are unable to deal with spiritual things in the physical world. I just don't think translating God into physical things is the answer, that's nothing other than idolatry. It's an artificial separation, which only reinforced our separation from a spiritual but no less real God.
 
Quantum Quack:
is Gods love conditional?

I would say no but I think most religions would say yes.

What say you?
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God's love, which god are we talking aboout, eros?,jesus?
there are many gods out there and they try to find out
who is the biggest and end up fighting just like humans
which love are you talking about, eros-love?,jesus-love?
there are many loves out there and they dont know which
love is the biggest and end up fighting just like humans
now
when god comes he will tell you
peace!
fuck love!
love ur ass love everything you like! because thats what you
do, love is your ass we dont need ass,we need peace


Philosopher Philocrazy
 
Quantum Quack said:
well then jenya maybe you could enlighten me as to what exactly you think 'spiritual" is?
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Spiritual things are discerned with spiritual senses, they are the truth behind the things we can physically touch and see. Thing like love, hope and faith are good examples of spiritual exercises that have physical significance. It is not the purely carnal, physical, and immediate world, but it is not separate from it either - only God is truly separate from everything spiritually, as we are separate from each other physically.
When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
...The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. (1 Cor.15)​
 
No problem. As you can see, it's not only mine, though. And it's a lot more complex than that anyway, so debate on...
 
The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
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Jenya I am aware you wont agree me me here but this statement is a sad inditement on the causality of so much irrationality in the world today.

To be sown in weakness only to be raised reeks of futility.
As does all the other "need" vs 'Cure' scenarios that religions create.

with this level of irrational thought it is no wonder that people are confused and perplexed by what youare attempting to convey.

Children on one hand are tauught to be rational and then expected to allow this sort of thinking to exist in their minds....

To be sown in dishonour only to be raised in glory is a very strange way to do business.......


as I said I don't think you can possibly understand what I am saying....if you understood you would agree...........but of course you can't.....
 
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