The conditionality of Gods Love

[Jenyar]

Seriously he is not referring to sexual love. I believe he is referring to the kind of love you have for your infant son or daughter.

I am puzzled.....why is sexual love deemed to be automatically conditional.

Let's say you tell your wife you live her unconditionally, but you won't have sex with her. Will she agree that you love her unconditionally, or will that seem like a condition for your love?

OK, I'm simplifying by using sex as an example, but at least you've realized it isn't such a simple concept. If sex can't be a condition for love, then your wife should thank you for loving her so unconditionally that you won't even have sex with her - and if it can be a condition for love, then your pet goat might wish your love were a little more conditional.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

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M*W: I've always thought of Nature as being God. Nature provides us everything we need to live. Nature nurtures us. We are part of Nature, therefore, we, too, are God.

 

[Jenyar]

I think it might help to establish where the conditions lie, rather than whether there are conditions. I think unconditional love, in the most noble sense, lies in the giver - he sets the conditions: the condition being that nothing the receiver can do or say will cause him to love them less. For his part.

But if the receiver were to make clear that the unconditional love wasn't welcome, he would be free to reject it. That still fits into the giver's conditions. But if the receiver were to abuse that love, exploit or demean or pervert it - say for instance, your wife sleeps around and still expects you to love her, because your love is supposed to be unconditional - then it becomes clear that they have begun making the conditions.

And this is what has happened in our relationship with God. We have begun defining the conditions - and we expect God to go along with it "because He is supposed to love us unconditionally".

Still following?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Jenya, i understand your POV but also I can't agree.

i know of at least two couples that love each other with out the condition of sex. i am sure also that you do too. many couples where one partener is severely disabled or simply sexually dysfuctional learn teh nature of uncondional love. I am sure that you have accidently missed this point.

if your love is conditional upon sex what happens when you simply can't have sex..........If the happiness of your relationship is dependent on sex then your in trouble mate.

Medicine woman,

M*W: The god humans have created doesn't exist. It's the overall image they wish for in a father figure. But, god as I understand it may have been the dynamic force that created the universe, but it's not a being that loves or feels any kind of emotion, and certainly a force that doesn't judge us humans!

In this context I agree with this.....assessment

Now I ask is the universe's existence conditional to being loved.?.....i think in absolute terms maybe this is a physical dependency more than an emotional one but let's not get to much into metaphysics hey?

 

[Jenyar]

I've always thought of Nature as being God. Nature provides us everything we need to live. Nature nurtures us. We are part of Nature, therefore, we, too, are God.

Good for you, but that's very convenient. Why call it "God" if "nature" will do?

 

[Jenyar]

i know of at least two couples that love each other with out the condition of sex. i am sure also that you do too. many couples where one partener is severely disabled or simply sexually dysfuctional learn teh nature of uncondional love. I am sure that you have accidently missed this point.

if your love is conditional upon sex what happens when you simply can't have sex..........If the happiness of your relationship is dependent on sex then your in trouble mate.

OK. No, I was just using sex as a point of departure for my argument, since it's the most common element associated with true love. But I don't think it's a condition for love either. It's just an ingredient, with its own conditions.

What I was trying to say is that the conditions of unconditional love isn't fixed - but they're still there. They're just implicit. It applies to your question as well:

Now I ask is the universe's existence conditional to being loved.?.....i think in absolute terms maybe this is a physical dependency more than an emotional one but let's not get to much into metaphysics hey?

We are dependent on the existence of the universe in order to love, conditionally or unconditionally. It's an implicit condition. Just like we are dependent on an "other" to exhibit love. Even loving yourself means you see "yourself" as a possible recipient. If there were nothing or no-one to experience love as unconditional, then we'd have to redefine what we call "love".

That's why M*W says the force that created us cannot love: it can have no conditions of its own. We would not experience anything called "love" from an impersonal source, neither judgment. Her "god" is limited to her understanding. Fortunately love knows no such limits - when we don't let others limit our love, that's the beginning of unconditional love.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: Good for you, but that's very convenient. Why call it "God" if "nature" will do?
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M*W: "God" is the common name most people understand as their higher being. I think "God" is a misnomer as there are millions of different concepts of "God." "Nature" works just fine. We all know what Nature is, and there's no confusion.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: "That's why M*W says the force that created us cannot love: it can have no conditions of its own. We would not experience anything called "love" from an impersonal source, neither judgment. Her "god" is limited to her understanding. Fortunately love knows no such limits - when we don't let others limit our love, that's the beginning of unconditional love.
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M*W: Jenyar, you ignorant liar and creep! Each of us has our own understanding of what we believe god to be. Just because I describe my god differently than you do doesn't mean I believe in a false god. Right there your statement proves that you are NOT A CHRISTIAN! A true Christian would NOT SAY THAT! You're admitting that there is more than one god -- that's ANTI-CHRISTIAN -- Hah! You're the antichrist! Furthermore, you DO NOT know that the love I have for my family and the rest of humanity is limited! If you knew me and knew my family, you would be ashamed of being such a hypocritical liar! But, fortunately, you will never know my family, and thank god, we're not related to a pervert like you! YOU are the one member on this forum who puts LIMITS on everything anyone else says. You don't have two brain cells to rub together, so shut your fucking mouth, you liar.

 

[water]

I think what Jenyar is trying to say that whether something is unconditional love depends on the giver, not on the receiver.


Often, we say that A unconditionally loves B, if B feels it is unconditional love. If B doesn't feel it as unconditional love, then A is not loving B unconditionally. -- But I think such a perspective on love is misleading. It eventually means if A gives B a gift, this gift is absolutely worthless if B doesn't like it. Indeed, the gift may be worthless to B, but this doesn't mean that A is supposed to feel this same way about the gift he gave, nor that the gift per se is worthless.

 

[water]

Jenyar, you ignorant liar and creep!
If you knew me and knew my family, you would be ashamed of being such a hypocritical liar! But, fortunately, you will never know my family, and thank god, we're not related to a pervert like you! YOU are the one member on this forum who puts LIMITS on everything anyone else says. You don't have two brain cells to rub together, so shut your fucking mouth, you liar.

Ad hominems. Watch your language, Medicine Woman.

 

[path]

Let's say you tell your wife you live her unconditionally, but you won't have sex with her. Will she agree that you love her unconditionally, or will that seem like a condition for your love?

OK, I'm simplifying by using sex as an example, but at least you've realized it isn't such a simple concept. If sex can't be a condition for love, then your wife should thank you for loving her so unconditionally that you won't even have sex with her - and if it can be a condition for love, then your pet goat might wish your love were a little more conditional.

Sex has nothing to do with love, sex has to do with intimacy and a human understanding of what love is. The act of sex is a physical thing that gives a couple more physical intimacy. It is also a physical or biological need that must be satisfied in some way which is why we rely on our partner to fulfill that need. QQ is asking about gods love so you shouldn't bring sex into it....unless you are unsure if god has sex or not in which case please refer to the thread "does god have sex" in the cesspool

 

[Q25]

is Gods love conditional?

I would say no but I think most religions would say yes.

What say you?

I say I dont know,Im not god.

however,when it comes to xian bible god,all believers say you must worship/love Him or else you'll BURN IN HELL you sinner!
seems like a condition to me

 

[Medicine*Woman]

RosaMagika: Ad hominems. Watch your language, Medicine Woman.
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M*W: Yes, mother.

 

[davewhite04]

Sex has nothing to do with love.

So what does the word(s) "lovemaking" or "lets make love" refer too? It seems to be used quite frequently by lovers.

Dave

 

[Jenyar]

however,when it comes to xian bible god,all believers say you must worship/love Him or else you'll BURN IN HELL you sinner!
seems like a condition to me

That's also a convenient rationalization for rejecting unconditional love. If God's love is the only thing that can give you eternal life, then where else will you find it?

 

[Jenyar]

M*W: Jenyar, you ignorant liar and creep! Each of us has our own understanding of what we believe god to be. Just because I describe my god differently than you do doesn't mean I believe in a false god. Right there your statement proves that you are NOT A CHRISTIAN! A true Christian would NOT SAY THAT!

No need for theatricals. I was responding to your assertion that "...god [is] not a being that loves or feels any kind of emotion, and certainly a force that doesn't judge us humans!", in other words, just a "mindless force".

 

[Quantum Quack]

So what does the word(s) "lovemaking" or "lets make love" refer too? It seems to be used quite frequently by lovers.

As an aside to the topic.......

Actually in my research in to the hmmmmm.....paranormal...........hmmmmm that is exactly what we are doing when expressing our love for someone else in the act of physical love making.

WE are actually and literally making love.......this energy is being created by our lovemaking.......the synergy of two persons making love generates this energy.....
and if the love making creates a child then the lovemaking has now created a means to propagate the ability to love......by creating another love making entity....

 

[Jenyar]

Interesting way to put it. That's more or less how the Hebrews saw the war against sin, they learnt from spiritualising the physical. That's why women were said to redeem themselves through childbirth. It "propagates" the love that gave us life in the first place. Without that sustaining love, death is the only prospect. But if the physical aspect is all there is, then the act remains empty, a ritual. It creates empty lives and misery.

 

[path]

So what does the word(s) "lovemaking" or "lets make love" refer too? It seems to be used quite frequently by lovers.

Dave

As I said in my post, intimacy and a human understanding, or interpretation of what love is. When you have a child you will understand it better.

edit:Just saw QQs post hmmmmm interesting.

 

[Athelwulf]

I just remembered something!

There's an IM conversation I had with a cousin of mine a while ago. She's a Christian. I'm not. Made for a great debate! Anyway, here's a snippet of the IM conversation.

Her: and He does love everyone
Her: including you
Me: why is there so much suffering though?
Her: it's part of life
Me: He'd help out somehow if He loved everyone
Her: He does
Her: He helped alot when He gave Jesus, and Jesus never did anything and still got punished for everyone
Her: including you
Me: But people in Africa are still dying of hunger
Her: sometimes, people don't necesarily do anything for something to happen. God has a plan
Her: if there wasn't anything happening in other countries, then there would be no pupose for missionaries
Me: Missionaries spread Faith, not food
Her: they sometimes, actually, do both
Me: but missionaries can't help everyone
Her: no, but God can
Me: but I don't see that He is
Her: you don't see, because you're not looking
Me: my point is He's not helping as much as anyone who loves someone would
Her: you don't understand, he's helping as much as people that love him are asking
Me: I'm sure there's someone somewhere that loves God dearly and is asking for Him to stop world hunger
Her: well, if everyone in the world was asking that whole-heartedly, then i'm sure that He would do it, but He sure feeds whoever asks
Me: it's not enough to be on the verge of starving, ya have to ask for food before you can get it? He can't just give you food out of pure kindness?
Her: well, He gives you His love when you ask for it, so why not for food.
Her: ?
Me: He already loves everyone
Me: not everyone asked
Her: and why are you only looking at the sad part of the world? there are good things in this world to.
Her: no not everyone asks
Her: but only those who do ask get to have Him
Me: yes, there are good things, but you can't deny the bad
Her: if you don't ask you don't recieve
Her: who said anything about denying the bad
Me: that's not entirely true
Her: ?
Me: Answer me this
Me: If you could do something that would feed everyone in Africa, even if it was only for one day, would you do it?
Her: yeah
Me: Because in a way you love the people in Africa, right?
Her: yeah
Me: God loves the people in Africa, AND He can feed them for eternity if He wanted
Her: "I call on the Lord in my distress, and He answers me." Psalm 120:1, yes He could
Me: Now if you had the power to stop hunger forever, would you have to be asked to do it?
Her: well, if nobody wanted me to, then whats the use in trying
Her: ?
Me: so that little Ethiopian child that hasn't had food for almost three weeks is okay with starving?
Me: just because no one asks for it, doesn't mean they don't want it
Her: i didn't say that
Me: you're right, you didn't
Me: I just don't think people have to ask
Her: you're impossible, is there anything that i can say to help you understand?
Me: I don't know

Apparently, it turns out that God's love is conditional.

Here's what I'm getting from all this: Ya have to ask for His love. Ya also have to ask for whatever you may need to survive, and if you love Him, He will give it to you.

No one has to ASK me for my love to GET my love. Also, if someone I love is somehow suffering and there's something I can do to stop their suffering, they won't be suffering for long!

It seems kinda twisted if God just won't stop yer suffering out of His sheer love for ya!