The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

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By the by, since you're hunting up connections in that thread: Not-All-Man: Defender of the Defended - what's the object there? That no man could object to the generalisation 'men', when they're already 'defended'? Defended from what? The generalisation? Or is it that male violence seems, to you, defense enough? Is that where men live then, in the violence, so that they're protected? The sword really is mightier than the pen?

I've never had much truck with "what about men's problems" and I'm certainly not diving inappropriately through metaphorical windows to protest a generalisation that isn't because of the say-so that when "men" is the word, it really means "bad men"; yet the verisimilitude is still there, presumably because of step 5 on the chart, so that the ends become the means.
 
Dutchie Kutchie

GeoffP said:

That's the summation of your response?

To your pretense of ignorance? Well, it would seem the first thing to do is clear up your alleged confusion.

In which way does that deny the realities of the acronym you just made up? Do you even know what it's in response to?

You were responding to the critique of #NotAllMen, complaining about generalizations. As I asserted, "The obligations put upon women in the question of rape in society are such that functional generalizations about the dangers, complications, and other obstacles presented by men are necessary considerations."

But you skipped that part to complain about what it explains.

So tell us, Geoff, what man should a woman not be inherently suspicious of according to Infinite Protection Advocacy? You? Me? Why?

We've got the theory of rape-dar on the record, but nobody can explain how it is women are just supposed to naturally know who's going to rape them, and nobody has shown a clairvoyance allele on the X chromosome. Maybe we should ask a geneticist where it is.

Meanwhile, Bells makes the point exactly, that she should be free to live as she chooses without this ever-present threat hanging over her head simply because she is XX and not XY.

Seriously, in all the times I've left my drink unattended, the two worst things that happened to it were a waitress not realizing I was over at the pool table and picking up a beer with a swallow left in it, or the time some alcoholic literally sat down at our table, drank our beer, and started smoking our cigarettes.

The idea that someone would drug me? Maybe if I was in the spy game, or organized crime, or something. Or Syd Barrett, I suppose. But I'm not a spy, or button man, or Pink Floyd frontman.

Thinking about seeing shows in town—

showboxinterior.jpg

Showbox Market: A great place to see a show.

—I might pause to think about just how dangerous my conduct would be if I was a woman. My goodness, I'll even separate from my friends to go to the bathroom, or to get another drink, speak nothing of wander about the show floor aimlessly. See at the left edge of the photo, that person in the background with their arms folded? That person is with either the club or, more likely, the band; the green room is back there. But you also have to wander between the stage and green room to get to the men's. The women's is similarly situated out of camera range on the other side of the stage. Those lights in the back of the house, at the right edge of the frame? That's the bar. Well, one of them. That bright red-pink sign on the wall just right of center is another alcohol dispensary in the same bar area; there's another bar behind the photographer, and one up on the back wall out of frame to the right. Fifteen hundred capacity, three bar areas, and all ages on the floor.

You know what the best protection advice for women is, given everything they are expected to do to "prevent" rape? Stay the fuck out of the Showbox. Just walking in would screw the checklist, especially on a 21+ night when there are no minors on the floor.

Somebody passes a joint? No worries, mate. Pass the dutchie on the left-hand side[sup]†[/sup].

What is the difference?

To me, I just hit it up. Stoners are stoners are stoners. And bad stoner radar isn't as good as some might suggest, but usually they'll tell you if the jay is backed with anything. In stoner world, it's kind of a pride thing: Dude, this is gonna make you see Andromeda!

For me, the precautions are simply whether this is the time it's dusted with something stupid or not, and whether security or police are close enough to bust me. That ought to be enough for women, too. Just like locking their cars against auto theft, or securing their laptops, or not leaving the front door unlocked at night.

But that aspect takes on a different functional shape for women. Inevitably, after any given rock show in Seattle, someone is going to get raped. Just like after any given football game, or whatnot. Rape is simply that common.

Don't take drugs offered you by a strange man? Sounds like great advice. To the other, I suppose the woman I randomly smoked out at a show—she happened to be looking at the pipe when I looked up—was just an idiot. To the upside, fine conversation, a groovin' set to follow, and a pleasant evening. Statistically speaking, she has more to fear from her boyfriend than she did from me. Not taking drugs offered by strangers ought to be good advice for not overdosing, accidentally taking the wrong thing, and such. The only reason it becomes a rape prevention tip is because the presumption that men simply fuck and women exist to be fucked persists.

There is a solidarity among fans at shows. It seems a shame to exclude women on the off chance that, as the biological theory goes, some confused guy might get horny. That woman has every right to smoke my pipe that any man I might hand it to would. I have no idea if the question of whether or not I would rape her went through her mind. I long for the day when there's no reason it should.

Unfortunately, we're supposed to spend the interim slowing progress by making excuses for rapists and pretending women are, inherently and collectively, complete idiots.

What it comes down to, it seems, is that a proposition suggesting men need to figure out how to not be rapists is consistently met with, "Well, what are ya gonna do? Ladies, it's up to you. An' lemme tell ya how."

And given the futility of that advice, yeah, at some point it becomes irreconcilably misogynistic. And as a society, we crossed that line a long, long time ago.
___________________

Notes:

[sup]†[/sup] The lyric was, apparently, "pass the kutchie", which isn't as sexy as we treat the idea of "coochie". The kutchie, in this case, is a container for marijuana. As a side note, it is asserted that Musical Youth paved the way for blackness on MTV, allegedly getting regular rotation some weeks before MJ's "Billie Jean".
 
Rape Prevention 101


How to Not Rape: A Practical Guide


1. Be realistic about your ability to not rape people. If you are prone to uncontrollable urges to rape, seek help, and avoid situations where you might have an opportunity to rape someone.

2. If your instinct is to rape, start to scream-"I AM ABOUT TO RAPE THIS PERSON, SOMEONE STOP ME!!!!!!!!" Keep screaming until someone intervenes, or at least your potential victim has a chance to get away from you.

3. Keep your shoes on at all times: Athletic trainers work best. If you feel like you are about to rape, they will enable you to run away as quickly as possible.

4. Don't take time to look back, just get away. Keep running until you find a safe place where there are no people that you can rape, and call a mental health professional.

5. If you are putting someones life in danger, stop fucking doing that

6. Assume that the person you want to rape has a disease or is menstruating. Better yet, assume that they have the worst flesh eating bacteria in the world inside of them. Assume they are filled with radioactive, toxic bio-hazardous materials. Convince yourself of this, and act accordingly.

7. If your date is defecating, urinating, or vomiting, this is a pretty good indication that they are not enjoying themselves. Stop raping them.

8. If your date is yelling, hitting or biting you*, this is a also a good indication that they are not enjoying themselves. Stop raping them - Note-This still applies if your date can do none of the above because you have immobilized her, bound her, if you have your hand clamped over her mouth or have taped it shut. Assume that if she could, she would be doing all of these things

9. Understand that some actions on your part, such as rape, may lead to more harm than not raping.

10. Remember, every emergency situation is different, but none of them require you to rape anyone.

11. If your date is not responding to you in any way whatsoever, not only are they not enjoying themselves, this is a good sign they are heavily intoxicated or unconscious. Stop raping them, and call 911. They probably have alcohol poisoning.

12. Don’t put drugs in drinks that do not belong to you. Whether or not you bought them is irrelevant.

13. When you see a woman walking alone at night, cross over to the other side of the street and leave them alone.

14. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, please remember not to rape them!

15. NEVER come in through an unlocked door or window uninvited. Ring the doorbell, push the buzzer, call the phone, throw rocks at the window, serenade. No one likes to be "surprised" in such a manner.

16. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, do not rape them.

17. Remember, people go to the laundromat to do their laundry.Do not attempt to rape someone who is alone in a laundry room.

18. Remember that a marriage license is not the same thing as a property deed. You do not own your spouses body, and they are not required to have sex with you.

19. Treat your lady like you would treat your car- and don't rape her.

20. Remember, having a sexual partner is not like owning a pair of jeans-Once you have had "worn" them, that doesn't mean you get to put them on again, any time you feel like it.

21. Use the buddy system! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend or two to stay with you while you are in public, and keep an eye on you.

22. Don't be a tease! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone just to take advantage of them. Consider telling them you are only interested in sex, and plan to rape them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that it as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

23. Consider the message your clothing is sending If you are dressed to appear as a nice normal person, you can't blame people for assuming you are one. Consider purchasing a shirt that says "I am a rapist", or getting it tattooed across your forehead.

24. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!

25. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might rape the person you are hanging out with, keep a whistle hanging around your neck, so they can blow it if you do.

26. Carry Pepper Spray! Keep it in an easy to access place, like your front pocket. If you start to pull down your pants to rape someone, reach into your pocket first and grab the pepper spray, then spray yourself in the face until you can't see or breathe, let alone rape. (Note-Hornet spray, taser guns and, in extreme scenarios, firearms will also do the trick if used in a similar fashion)

27. Avoid situations that leave you vulnerable- Know what your triggers are. If you want to rape children, avoid playgrounds, coaching, teaching, and raising children. If you want to rape college girls, avoid university campuses, frat parties, and bars in college towns. If you want to rape the elderly, avoid nursing homes. Be aware of your environment at all times.

28. If you are unsure if your date is old enough to consent to sex, ask to see ID. Generally NON-acceptable forms of ID include:

• Elementary, Middle, or High School Identification cards
• Child Safety Identification cards
• Learners Permits
• Boys & Girls club membership cards
• Build-a-Bear workshop club membership cards
• The response "what is ID? I am eight years old."

29. If you are unsure if your date is actually consenting to sex, try asking them "is it OK for me to have sex with you?" If the response is any of the following, stop raping them immediately:

• "No"
• "I don't know"
• "I'd prefer not to"
• "Get the fuck off of me and stop raping me!"
• "ummmmmm wha?" (or any other form of alcohol slurred muttering)
• "What is sex? I am eight years old."
• Silence-due to your date being unconscious, non-verbal, or not old enough to talk
• Anything other than "YES" or a similar, clearly affirmative answer

And finally, the BEST, most fool-proof tip of all......

30. Don't rape.



Scotland rape prevention goes along the same line. In other words, it is aimed at the potential rapist, not the potential victim.

Strange concept, I know.

But no, best to just place the onus on the woman to not be raped.

And if you think it is stupid to teach people to not rape, the 'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign in Canada placed the onus on men to not rape and sexually abuse. Rapes and sexual assaults rates dropped by 10% in 2011. After one year.
 
Do I Have to Draw You a Freakin' Diagram?

GeoffP said:

By the by, since you're hunting up connections in that thread: Not-All-Man: Defender of the Defended - what's the object there? That no man could object to the generalisation 'men', when they're already 'defended'? Defended from what? The generalisation? Or is it that male violence seems, to you, defense enough? Is that where men live then, in the violence, so that they're protected? The sword really is mightier than the pen?

Actually, I thought it pretty straightforward. I mean, there was the text in the article quote:

The “not all men” man, at least in some cases, agrees with you and is perfectly willing to talk about how terrible those other guys are, just as soon as we get done establishing that he himself would never be such a cad. It’s infuriating and unhelpful, but in a way it represents a weird kind of progress ....

.... The Not-All-Man hero and his minions are paralyzingly obsessed with protecting their own self-concept, to a degree that prevents them from engaging in sincere discussion. But this contrast — between “not all men” and earlier derailing tactics — suggests that maybe they also represent a small and subtle shift towards good-faith argumentation.

Or my own comment on that point: "It's a big maybe."

Still, though, if that isn't clear enough. You decided to ask about generalizations, and I pointed out the customary obligation when women are expected to be accountable for men's actions. There was Tedeschi, for instance:

Yes, there are gradations of sexism. There's Al Qaeda on one side and a few loose smatterings of men on the other extreme. But, let's be honest, boys - most of us Nice Guys are in the middle and we're not budging. Because that would force us to question our own assumptions about our own masculinity and how it is impacted by the empowering of over one half of the global community.

Additionally, I reviewed a particularly pointed defense of IPA, in which a male prevention advocate reduced all men to mere machines and commented on the lack of "not all men" responses.

What it comes down to, quite simply—and reiterating myself, as such—is:

The obligations put upon women in the question of rape in society are such that functional generalizations about the dangers, complications, and other obstacles presented by men are necessary considerations.

You chose instead to go with:

"When it is a customary obligation."

"It is not."

That's it. No attention to the details. No address of the concepts at play. This was your tack, and apparently you have no idea what you were on about.

The problem with #NotAllMen is that it is significant of a man's priority. We stack all these prevention tips onto women, the general effect of which is that they must be suspicious of any man, and then along comes some dude who wants everyone else to put the conversation on hold until he has made some point about how this is unfair to men.

You know: Wait, this conversation can't go forward until we talk about what's really important—evil women generalizing about men!

It's all bullshit. "Not all men" is not helpful. Indeed, whatever sense of dignity and respect a man is chasing by throwing down the not all men interjection is futile; he would be much more dignified and find himself better respected if he would either add something useful to the discussion or else shut the holy fuck up.

Women are not stupid, Geoff. "Not all men" might be true, but that has nothing to do with the practical reality women face in a society that puts the burden of men's sins onto women. If "not all men" is to have any useful significance, we must first make it relevant, and the way to do that is reshape our societal attitudes in such a way that "suspect all men" is no longer a functional, practical reality because the situation has changed so dramatically.

And, you know, honestly, if women cannot trust a male friend to pour her a drink without violating a rape prevention tip, there is something seriously wrong with society.

No, really, if I couldn't trust someone like that, I would not partake in the friendship. But women? Well, if they want male friends, they just have to put up with the idea that some will try to rape them. And it's apparently all up to the women to figure out who.

Just as long as they stop to acknowledge it's not all men whenever a man asks her to ... right?
 
How to Not Rape: A Practical Guide

1. Be realistic about your ability to not rape people. If you are prone to uncontrollable urges to rape, seek help, and avoid situations where you might have an opportunity to rape someone.

15. NEVER come in through an unlocked door or window uninvited. Ring the doorbell, push the buzzer, call the phone, throw rocks at the window, serenade. No one likes to be "surprised" in such a manner.

30. Don't rape.
Women around the world can breathe easy now. Men for the first time in history have been properly advised not to rape and will do so no more. Why hasn’t anyone tried this before?

So we can all have a life as carefree as yours, could you please tell them not to engage in other violent crime as well?
 
Women around the world can breathe easy now. Men for the first time in history have been properly advised not to rape and will do so no more. Why hasn’t anyone tried this before?

So we can all have a life as carefree as yours, could you please tell them not to engage in other violent crime as well?
It worked in Canada.

But here's the thing. You scoff at that list. But people expect women to adhere to similar rules to not be raped - by calling it "common sense".

It's common sense for men to not rape. So why don't such lists exist for potential rapists?

I find it astounding that people find educating men to not rape to be ridiculous, to the point where we get stupid responses like what you just posted. But people expect women to behave a certain way so they are not raped? Really?

You do realise that most of the advice listed is just what women are told they should do to prevent being raped, only it's applied to rapists, right? You do get that, I hope. So it's apparently acceptable to scoff when it's applied to rapist, but not scoff when it's applied to potential victim so they are not raped by any person?
 
Stupidity.
Then they'd be bawling if they got raped.

One can only hope that no one close to you is ever raped or sexually assaulted, because frankly, you are not a very nice person.

They'd be bawling if they get raped? Really?

Good job on blaming the rape victim.

Ugh... why do we call it common sense anymore... it obviously ISN'T all that common!

Gotta wonder if these same people would hop into a white van with no windows just because it had "Free Candy" painted on the side...
Why would they? Rape prevention teaches women that vans are for rape.

If it makes you feel any better, she is statistically more at risk at home with her boyfriend or husband, than with a complete stranger in a car. To put it into some perspective for you..

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1


Thankfully they didn't know the guys in the car.

:rolleyes:
 
One can only hope that no one close to you is ever raped or sexually assaulted, because frankly, you are not a very nice person.

They'd be bawling if they get raped? Really?

Good job on blaming the rape victim.


Why would they? Rape prevention teaches women that vans are for rape.

If it makes you feel any better, she is statistically more at risk at home with her boyfriend or husband, than with a complete stranger in a car. To put it into some perspective for you..

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1


Thankfully they didn't know the guys in the car.

:rolleyes:

I understand your point there Bells, but you have to admit - getting into a car with someone you don't know, no matter HOW nice the car... that's just asking for trouble.
 
I understand your point there Bells, but you have to admit - getting into a car with someone you don't know, no matter HOW nice the car... that's just asking for trouble.

Hmm. So from the discussion thus far we can conclude that you are either:

1) a misogynist who wants to control women and wants to put the onus for avoiding rape on them, rather than rapists
2) a purveyor of common sense

And while most people would agree on 2), it has almost zero utility in creating thousand-post flamewars.
 
Hmm. So from the discussion thus far we can conclude that you are either:

1) a misogynist who wants to control women and wants to put the onus for avoiding rape on them, rather than rapists
2) a purveyor of common sense

And while most people would agree on 2), it has almost zero utility in creating thousand-post flamewars.

Problem is, option 1 only comes about if you believe GeoffP and his uncanny ability to absolutely twist and misrepresent what has been said.
Option 2) Meh

I prefer option 3) Someone who has seen enough of the world to know that common sense isn't so common anymore
 
Quadratic Insult

Kittamaru said:

I understand your point there Bells, but you have to admit - getting into a car with someone you don't know, no matter HOW nice the car... that's just asking for trouble.

Now, here is the functional problem with that bit of advice.

From earliest childhood, boys and girls alike of my generation were taught to not get into cars with strangers. Apparently, the girls still need to be told, because ... why?

I've gotten in cars with strangers before. And consider all the dangers involved: Meet two women at a bar; get into the car with them, knowing how flat loaded they are, but I'm tanked, too, so, you know. Roaring up I-5 while the girls fight over which Kelly Clarkson song to listen to, right into the heart of county law enforcement, to go to another bar.

At the bar I'm chatting up and chatted up by random strangers, including one gorgeous gay first-generation Ugandan. And then it's closing time, a clusterdiddle of its own for that specific bar, it turns out. The cops even give me a pass on pissing in the bushes because I have the decency to be out of sight, but it's obvious why I'm emerging onto the sidewalk as such. Just as long as we all pile drunkenly into our cars and leave.

Turns out, the ladies have met someone, a failed hispanic rapper from Atlanta, and soon enough we're over at some apartment complex in the burbs, drinking these godawful energy drink/fahqueueup malt liquor concoctions (Spark?) and snorting lines of cocaine. Now, with the amount of gay people I was around, I couldn't get one of them to cram me in a whorehouse. And that's understandable, given the stakes and statistics.

But the thing is that I was never in danger of being raped. My stupidity had to do with the chances of dying or being arrested as a result of my own stupidity.

And honestly? That ought to be anyone's right. And here I mean a right, not a privilege of the Y chromosome. I fully support the right of a person to go out and die doing something incredibly stupid. But that does not confer unto others any right to cause that harm. And that, as a principle, is not a privilege of the Y chromosome.

And therein lies the problem. While women aren't so stupid, reminding them as if they are does nothing to address the underlying problem.
 
Option 2) Meh
I prefer option 3) Someone who has seen enough of the world to know that common sense isn't so common anymore

So common sense would dictate that common sense isn't so common any more?

I agree, actually. I think two things have recently been the enemy of common sense:

1) The Internet. In times past, people got their information from a limited number of sources - and generally those sources involved some vetting. Reading a newspaper means the news has been reviewed by an editor. Going to the library means that someone decided to stock the library with relatively relevant and factual books, and also means that you will find ghost storied in the "occult" or "fiction" section, which is a good indicator that perhaps they should not be taken too seriously.

Decades ago when a farmer lost a bunch of his cattle, he might go to the sheriff, who would tell him that rustlers have been active in the area. Or he might talk to his neighbor and hear "yeah, old Jones lost ten head of cattle about ten years back when the river flooded; the were washed away." Now he can go to Google, type in "alien abduction cattle" and get 523,000 hits.

2) Political correctness. Political correctness has some very laudable goals, but is often misused by people who try to replace common sense with political correctness. A politically correct news show, for example, might not report that "the black sections of the city have the highest crime rates" because there may be some value in not always associating race with crime. However, that might also lead them to decline to report that East Harlem has high crime rates, because they might not want to be seen as reporting that predominantly black sections of the city have high crime rates. Such behavior is the enemy of common sense, since without knowing where the high crime rates are, it's not possible to avoid them. We are seeing that effect here.
 
From earliest childhood, boys and girls alike of my generation were taught to not get into cars with strangers.
Does that mean the adults who told you that were misogynists, who felt that women are expected to be accountable for men's actions? Who felt women (_and_ men) were inherently stupid?
 
I understand your point there Bells, but you have to admit - getting into a car with someone you don't know, no matter HOW nice the car... that's just asking for trouble.
I get into a car with a stranger all the time.

It's called catching a Taxi. I also get into a vehicle full of complete strangers all the time. That's called catching a bus or train. And sexual assault and rapes happen there too. Sometimes in broad daylight, in a bus full of people.

And if you think getting into a car with a police officer makes you safer, think again.

But I am still safer doing all of that, than I am with a man I know, am related to or am in a relationship with, or in my own home.

So tell me, with the statistics that clearly show a woman is more likely to be raped by a guy she knows, would do they recommend a woman catch a ride home with a guy she knows? Remember, 2/3 of rapes are by men that women know. So I cannot understand why rape prevention tips actually recommend and suggest that women be driven home by friends or by people she knows, why they recommend leaving your drink with a friend, etc.. Since they are more likely to rape you than a complete stranger..

It's easy to focus on stranger rapes and carry on about how irresponsible she is, etc.. But the reality is that she is safer getting into a car with a complete stranger than getting into a car with a dear and trusted friend. And everyone would think that getting into a car with a dear and trusted friend would be the more responsible and common sense thing to do..
 
Er ... um ....

Billvon said:

Does that mean the adults who told you that were misogynists, who felt that women are expected to be accountable for men's actions? Who felt women (_and_ men) were inherently stupid?

I just need to triple-check, here: Seriously?
 
I just need to triple-check, here: Seriously?
I was doing the same reductio ad absurdum you regularly perform here. Not surprised you find it hard to take seriously; perhaps now you are getting a glimpse of how you are seen by other posters.

Yes, it is an absurd argument - as is the argument that women's groups who provide rape-avoidance advice/training/checklists are "reminding women they are stupid."
 
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