Yep. In the 80's a large portion of religious terrorist attacks were jewish terrorism.
The Boston Marathon Bombing
- Thread starter Tiassa
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Yep. In the 80's a large portion of religious terrorist attacks were jewish terrorism.
Bells
Staff member
There is over a billion Muslims on the planet. When even ultra-conservatives are saying that they don't know or understand why the brother's did it..
They weren't fundies Balerion. It might bring you comfort to believe that they were for reasons known to you and you alone, but they were not.
And it is astounding that you describe non-Muslim domestic terrorists as being merely crazy, giving them some kind of an out, while you prefer to believe that all Muslim terrorists are motivated solely by their religion. And that says a lot about you in this debate.
While his brother partied hard, smoked and sold dope and he had pre-marital sex, had a child with a non-Muslim woman..
He was an extremist as much as McVeigh was an extremist..
Perhaps you wish to give McVeigh an out by declaring him insane for whatever reason, but he was not insane. He was quite sane. Terrifyingly so. He knew exactly what he was doing and why, as did his accomplices. The same with Eric Rudolph and the rest of extremist and terrorists.
The point is that they could have been drawn to anything and the result would have been the same. I look at these two brother's and I don't see a difference between them and Rudolph, for example.
Of course they do.
Ultra-conservative Christians are also supposed to follow the teaching's of Christ, yet it doesn't stop them from bombing abortion clinics, for example, does it?
And did he?
Or did he die because his brother ran him over with the car after their shootout?
He latched onto what he perceived as a cause. Even the ultra-conservative Muslim terrorists groups in Chechnya think he was wrong and clearly stated, they have no issues with the US.
Because I am out to get you, of course. Again, paranoid much?
It still does not make him an ultra-conservative Muslim fundamental.
He was an extremist who believed the US Government was out to get him.
And yet, his brother smoked pot and sold it. And a lot of people do not drink or smoke. My ex-husband did not. And he is an agnostic. So pointing the finger at not drinking and smoking as a sign is silly.
What you don't understand is that there is no difference between them and other extremists who have also committed terrorist acts in and against the US and its citizens. Just because they are Muslim, does not make them somehow different.
He actually was quite anti-social. He alienated himself from his own family, his own sister's hadn't seen him for years and they lived in the US and not that far from him. His extended family had not seen him for years. He described himself as a loner without having made friends in the US.
Again, McVeigh was not insane. He was distinctly sane. So were his accomplices. He felt he had a reason to attack the US. Just as Eric Rudolph was very sane and felt he had a reason to bomb lesbian bars, abortion clinics and Atlanta during the Olympics. Rudolph was a Christian extremist. He was sane. He knew what he was doing and why. The same with McVeigh. McVeigh, like Tamerlan, believed that the Government was after him and were watching him. But he, like Tamerlan, attacked the US because they both had issues with the US' war (McVeigh, with the first Gulf war). And there are so many similarities because they were both extremists. Just as there are similarities between them and Rabbi Meir Kahane, of the JDL, when they went on to commit 15 acts of terrorism in the US. They weren't crazy. They were extremists.
They didn't set off those bombs because they felt that those "values" were lacking in their society. They set off those bombs because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't think they are crazy.
I think they are weak and will latch on to a cause to fix what they perceive is a 'wrong'.
Perhaps they were schizophrenic, irrational?
Bells
Staff member
Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, "has no major mental illness," says Dr. John Smith, the psychiatrist who evaluated McVeigh for the defense during his trial for the 1995 bombing that killed 168 people.
"After I examined Tim, I knew that he was not deranged," says Smith for the first time. McVeigh has, however, suffered from depression, obsessive-compulsive traits, and at least one severe panic attack, according to Smith, who spoke to PrimeTime Thursday with the permission of his former patient.
"He really feels nothing," says Smith. "He feels, in my opinion, fully justified in his action."
McVeigh agreed to let the doctor talk, Smith says, because McVeigh wants "to promote a dialogue in this country on the role of the federal government in our lives." And, he says, "I think he wants people to know that this is not the behavior of some crazy guy."
Smith believes that McVeigh has no fear of his execution on May 16. "Tim's not afraid of that event, not now … Tim is a warrior who's ready … to die for his cause."
"After I examined Tim, I knew that he was not deranged," says Smith for the first time. McVeigh has, however, suffered from depression, obsessive-compulsive traits, and at least one severe panic attack, according to Smith, who spoke to PrimeTime Thursday with the permission of his former patient.
"He really feels nothing," says Smith. "He feels, in my opinion, fully justified in his action."
McVeigh agreed to let the doctor talk, Smith says, because McVeigh wants "to promote a dialogue in this country on the role of the federal government in our lives." And, he says, "I think he wants people to know that this is not the behavior of some crazy guy."
Smith believes that McVeigh has no fear of his execution on May 16. "Tim's not afraid of that event, not now … Tim is a warrior who's ready … to die for his cause."
He was not insane, so we should perhaps stop making excuses for him. He was very sane and his cause, to him, was justified.
He, like Tamerlan, was ready to die for his cause as well. The brother's were more like him than they were like Bin Laden. Their motivation more similar to McVeigh and his ilk than anything else.
Just because he is a Muslim, does not make him any different to other extremists who have attacked the US from within.
I would suggest people like mcveigh knew more about stuff than the docs that tried to interview him. How can the ignorant doctors make a judgement about stuff they know little about. I am sure mcveigh knew stuff and said stuff we will never hear. Doubt his doctor was anyone to judge if he had mental problems, if the person who was a doctor was ignorant to what mcveigh was talking off.
On mcveigh, i think he was guilty but only because he probably wanted to do what he did. Whether fertilizer bombs could of really done all that damage, i would leave that to people whom know really about the physics of explosions. I seriously doubt that mcveigh fertilizer bomb did that damage, but i would suspect he wanted to do it. So i would think he knew he was guilty, and accepted he played a part in something bigger, and the public as with most of these things believe they are just lone nuts.
But fertalizer bombs could not have done the damage that was done that day. An explosives expert can explain, and i am sure you can find vids on it.
I believe that mcveigh did take part in the operation, but whether his truck actually did all that damage is debatable.
I think mcveigh accepted his fate, but knew that his bomb did not do all that damage. He probably knew he was part of a bigger operation that he knew little off. But at the end of the day his fertilizer bomb wanted to do damage, but he went to his death probably knowing something more was going on that day.
I think mcveigh expected his bomb to blow out some windows, and cause some damage. But something bigger was going on, that he was not aware off. Imagine setting up a bomb, expecting to blow out some windows, and then seeing all that damage. Those buildings are very strong, and to do that damage takes far more than some fertilizer bomb, and the gov knew it. Mcveigh went to his death knowing, he was not alone that day in wanting to blow up things, but obviously the operation was bigger than he knew.
I seriously doubt the two whom they say blew of those bombs knew anything about society, other than the older one was being targeted by the fbi. But the fbi are not going to tell him anything about how society is run.
On mcveigh, i think he was guilty but only because he probably wanted to do what he did. Whether fertilizer bombs could of really done all that damage, i would leave that to people whom know really about the physics of explosions. I seriously doubt that mcveigh fertilizer bomb did that damage, but i would suspect he wanted to do it. So i would think he knew he was guilty, and accepted he played a part in something bigger, and the public as with most of these things believe they are just lone nuts.
But fertalizer bombs could not have done the damage that was done that day. An explosives expert can explain, and i am sure you can find vids on it.
I believe that mcveigh did take part in the operation, but whether his truck actually did all that damage is debatable.
I think mcveigh accepted his fate, but knew that his bomb did not do all that damage. He probably knew he was part of a bigger operation that he knew little off. But at the end of the day his fertilizer bomb wanted to do damage, but he went to his death probably knowing something more was going on that day.
I think mcveigh expected his bomb to blow out some windows, and cause some damage. But something bigger was going on, that he was not aware off. Imagine setting up a bomb, expecting to blow out some windows, and then seeing all that damage. Those buildings are very strong, and to do that damage takes far more than some fertilizer bomb, and the gov knew it. Mcveigh went to his death knowing, he was not alone that day in wanting to blow up things, but obviously the operation was bigger than he knew.
I seriously doubt the two whom they say blew of those bombs knew anything about society, other than the older one was being targeted by the fbi. But the fbi are not going to tell him anything about how society is run.
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People pursue power.
Bombing, and shooting, are ways that weak people can feel powerful.
Maybe for a long time they have felt powerless.
The people who set up the bombers have political motives,
but those that do it have personal ones.
Religion is a way of making it permissible, virtuous even.
Generally.
Bombing, and shooting, are ways that weak people can feel powerful.
Maybe for a long time they have felt powerless.
The people who set up the bombers have political motives,
but those that do it have personal ones.
Religion is a way of making it permissible, virtuous even.
Generally.
that makes sense.
now the question is, what led two supposedly well integrated immigrants down this path?
It says a lot about you that you're incapable of arguing on the level. I'm not saying all non-Muslim domestic terrorists are crazy. I'm saying that Timothy McVeigh was crazy, or at least I thought he was. Maybe he really was driven by his convictions.
That doesn't mean he wasn't a conservative Muslim. You really need to get that through your head. People can believe in things and not strictly adhere to those beliefs. It happens all the time. I'm sure even you have convictions you don't always follow.
He was a jihadist. His ideology and violent behavior was in line with the jihadist culture of fundamentalist Islam.
Whether he was sane or insane is really irrelevant, because we know that the Tsarnaev brothers (Tamerlan at the least) was driven by fundamentalist Islam. That's all that really matters.
That's a non-sequitur. Timothy McVeigh belonged to another culture capable of breeding violence (though it certainly breeds it at a lesser rate than Islam) which is the far-right anti-government gun-rights culture. That's not "anything," that's a severe and dangerous ideology in its own right.
I don't either. Rudolph was informed by his faith, just as the Tsarnaevs were.
Not at all. Are you under the impression that I don't think other religions are capable of engendering violence in their followers? I assure you that's not the case.
And if your best defense of Islam is that "it's not the only one" then what's the point? No one is saying Islam owns the copyright on violent fundamentalism. You just get all bent out of shape when someone rightly points out Islam's role in an event.
False dichotomy. He bombed the marathon for Islam, and then went into a suicidal shootout with police for Islam. He was trying to die for Islam. How he actually died is irrelevant.
And that cause was the defense of Islam. Where do you get the idea that religious terrorism has nothing to do with a cause? This goes back to your ludicrous straw man about Muslims killing non-Muslims for being different. That must be what "religious violence" is to you, but that's not what it is in the real world. Here, religious violence is always related to a cause, and it's almost always that the adherents feel their faith is somehow under attack.
Irrelevant.
It's got nothing to do with you being out to get me, it has to do with you intentionally omitting details that contradict your fragile argument.
If that's the case, then having premarital sex doesn't mean he isn't.
No, he believed the US government was out to get Islam.
It's not silly when Tamerlan said himself that he abstained because of his faith:
Tamerlan says he doesn't drink or smoke anymore: "God said no alcohol." A muslim, he says: "There are no values anymore," and worries that "people can't control themselves."
What you don't understand is that Truthers aren't blowing shit up. That was my point. I'm not saying that there aren't other ideologies capable of creating violence. I'm not saying the Tsarnaev's were different than "other terrorists" necessarily. I'm simply saying that they were inspired and informed by their faith. That's all. But you won't allow that. You somehow view every condemnation of Islamic violence as "singling Islam out." It's absurd, and it needs to stop.
His falling out with his extended family was not his doing, and we know for a fact he remained close to at least one family member. He also spoke to his mother and father frequently, and had a wife.
The government was watching him, because he was associated with radical Islam.
Nice try, though.
How do you know?
I think that's a comforting idea, because it's scary to imagine that people can be driven to such lengths by faith.
Bells
Staff member
Wow..
Okay..
So tell me Andy. You claim to be a victim of the FBI and that they are following you and monitoring you and you seem to express some fear about them. For all you know, some of us here could be FBI and this site created solely with the purpose of luring you here to capture you.
And I can assure you, when we do catch you, and we will.. There will be a lottery on who gets to insert your anal probe.
/Cackle..
His comment was that we rarely get attacked by freelance Jewish or Christian terrorists. This comment still stands, despite the attempt at sidetracking the argument. Should I ask for proof of your statement?
Wow..
Okay..
So tell me Andy. You claim to be a victim of the FBI and that they are following you and monitoring you and you seem to express some fear about them. For all you know, some of us here could be FBI and this site created solely with the purpose of luring you here to capture you.
And I can assure you, when we do catch you, and we will.. There will be a lottery on who gets to insert your anal probe.
/Cackle..
There is nothing in my life, so you will have to make it up. Of course you could stop trying to set me up with honey traps like you did in past, as i do not like females.
The traps you people set up for people must be taught to people at the fbi, as a majority must fall for them.
I am sure american agencies target people and they never give up on them as my life has shown. But remember there is nothing in my life. So with targeting my life none of your honey traps will not work, or things like that.
I still reckon bin laden was just a very spiritual man sitting in a cave wishing bad things on america. That sums up how you target people. The american people have no idea how you work, or why you target some.
There is really not much i can do about you lot targeting me. Remember i have never worked for no military or gov, and am not giving away gov secrets as i have never signed any agreement, but found out i was being targeted.
I have now 21 years of being targeted, first by uk, then last 10 years or so by you lot across the atlantic, for no reason other than offering my opinion on america.
Say Andy...
He was found, if you recall, in a very nice house with servants inside and that house was in the middle of a town that was used for military personnel that the Afghan military had. He was watching TV when he was killed and they said he had pornographic video tapes to watch. So he wasn't a "spiritual" man at all , was he? So why do you make up crap like this and say it?
He was found, if you recall, in a very nice house with servants inside and that house was in the middle of a town that was used for military personnel that the Afghan military had. He was watching TV when he was killed and they said he had pornographic video tapes to watch. So he wasn't a "spiritual" man at all , was he? So why do you make up crap like this and say it?
Aww man, this thread is going nowhere.
*Unsubscribed*
Where's your milk of human kindness?
(You'll be back. You know there are no other threads as good as this one)
@Balerion.
Sorry? What???
Can't hear you.
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Bells
Staff member
They weren't watching him.Balerion said:
They questioned him after being contacted by Russia, but they determined he was not a risk or threat. He only believed he was being watched.
Since your previous comments have already been discussed, numerous times, I really don't want to bother wasting my time going over it yet again, especially seeing that you seem incapable of reading the links provided to you..
So how do I know their motivation was the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Because Dzhokhar Tsarnaev said that was their motivation:
Bells
Staff member
Oh we know what you are into..
You still have your mind and your health.. We're coming for that next.... I sense the use of a brain probe to weed out all that you know...
Bin Laden is actually living in a resort in Florida, along with Elvis and Tupac.
It is because you know too much..
Your foil hat shall avail you not!
We're coming for you....
Bells- Funny how the fbi perve into our home claiming i am a person whom was in the military. That person moved out of the country in 2005. They thought i was him, giving away gov secrets because he was in military in england.
No i have never been in no military, so stop targeting me claiming i am giving out gov secrets. I just found out the uk gov was targeting me when i was doing my alevels back in 1992. You americans picked up me from my postings some 10 years back, but i know what i know from being targeted first from uk and now you people across the atlantic.
Plus like i said above can you never try and honey trap me again, i have no interest in females and never have. lol
I have never been in no military or signed any gov or military secrecy oath. I found out uk gov targets people, and that was 21 years ago at school, then you lot in america targeted me some 10 years back, for posting my opinion on america.
Do you not think with 21 years of being a target(since 1992 from uk gov, then 10 years or so back from usa), i have not learned what sort of things you do, and the tactics to ridicule, and destroy people you target?
No i have never been in no military, so stop targeting me claiming i am giving out gov secrets. I just found out the uk gov was targeting me when i was doing my alevels back in 1992. You americans picked up me from my postings some 10 years back, but i know what i know from being targeted first from uk and now you people across the atlantic.
Plus like i said above can you never try and honey trap me again, i have no interest in females and never have. lol
I have never been in no military or signed any gov or military secrecy oath. I found out uk gov targets people, and that was 21 years ago at school, then you lot in america targeted me some 10 years back, for posting my opinion on america.
Do you not think with 21 years of being a target(since 1992 from uk gov, then 10 years or so back from usa), i have not learned what sort of things you do, and the tactics to ridicule, and destroy people you target?
@Bells
Why are you trying to lure andy into a honey trap?
Am I not enough for you any more?
Oh, so you have all my secrets now.
You have drained me dry.
And cast me aside like an old slipper.
Why are you trying to lure andy into a honey trap?
Am I not enough for you any more?
Oh, so you have all my secrets now.
You have drained me dry.
And cast me aside like an old slipper.