The bible rewards the rapists!

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"
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Can we have some context please flores! :rolleyes:

I have read that passage myself but I don't recall it saying 'rape', but something along the lines of 'sleeps with'. I remember the passage fundamentally portraying the message that if a man sleeps with a girl, he must take her as his wife, for life, i.e., men should not just use women for sex. It must also be noted that this is from The New International Version, and Mis-transaltions are not unheard of. The 'red sea' (that parted) was actually supposed to be 'The Reed sea', and the parting is a natural phenomenon! In the King James Version it is written
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
30 A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.
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It's Interesting to note how God knows we are all secret tranvestites. :D :rolleyes:

(I think other people have already posted about translations, but this is my effort).
 
Thanks Mucker,

The moral of the story here is really that the laws of the bible and even some in the Quran were meanat for a specific day and age and not for standard application. For example, I Don't think it's morally correct to publically stone people this day and age, while it was a practice urged by in the Bible and Quran for sexual crimes.


Please remember that the era that the Bible and the Quran were revealed, women used to be treated like shit, so what some passage might imply as againest women, they were actually revolutionary at the time in liberating women. Baby girls during those times were always buried alive to save the father any future scandals. A widow was as good as dead, a raped girl was also as good as dead. The bible took one step forward and placed a liability on the rapist, by our standards today, that's awefull, but back then that was a great move.

The whole objective of this thread is to enlighten some christians to the fact that certain goals justify certain deeds and that everything is not black and white. Women can not be liberated over night, being a slave is better than dead and being one of four wifes is better than being a slave, and being the wife of a rapist is better than killing the woman and rewarding the rapist, ect...... There has been over 2000 years since Jesus Death and things that were a seed back in the times of Jesus are full grown plants now. It makes no sense to apply the bible literally , that would be like ignoring the full grown tree and clinching to the seed for salvation.
 
Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.
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I have done this in another thread somewhere - I wish I could remember where, because I spent some time writing it! I will look for it...

As you probably know, Muslims have the "99 names of God". "Names" are just ways that we use to try and understand small manageable parts of God - who is unknowable in His entirety (hence the 'missing' 100th name). Hindus would argue that each "name" is a different god, all part of the great Brahman. The Trinity is the same - these are names of God, but names all describe the nature of God. God's glory is such that each of his attributes is 100% completely God, but from our perspective we can only see 33.3% of it. It's the difference between what we 'call' God, and what we 'see/experience' of God.

I'm on dangerous ground again, so please patiently correct me if I am wrong: My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it. Is that right? I have read a note left by a Muslim suicide-bomber that asked his wife and children's forgiveness because "it is too hard to attain paradise" any other way than martyrdom. I don't mean to say this is a valid or accepted excuse under Islam, but it illustrates my point.

In the meantime, here is a diagram of how the New Testament interprets the manifestations of God:

trinity-godhood.gif
 
That's a good diagram, I haven't seen it before. If I understand it correctly, you are saying that god could be the father, the son, and the holly spirit, but vice versa is not possible, so the son can not be the father, the holly spirit can not be the father, because they are only partial, while god is whole.....I think I understand that and I don't think the view of the trinity violates the oneness of god if viewed as such. God send Jesus and holly spirit to deliver a message. Jesus and the holly spirit are part of god, but not totally god....

You question is

I'm on dangerous ground again, so please patiently correct me if I am wrong: My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it. Is that right? I have read a note left by a Muslim suicide-bomber that asked his wife and children's forgiveness because "it is too hard to attain paradise" any other way than martyrdom. I don't mean to say this is a valid or accepted excuse under Islam, but it illustrates my point.

You are right here, we only wish for god mercy to deliver us. That is the true meaning of submittion. Submit means one that is at the mercy of another. You can't truly be a submitter unless you have left your entire fate and destiny in another. The suicide bomber is detinetly mentally disabeled and there are so many mentally disabled undiagnosed people all over the world that take dangerous steps to their goals, but that doesn't speak any truth of a religion or a god, just speaks truth of the person belief.

My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.
 
quote:
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Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.
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Another way to look at it is like water.

Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.
It is still in essence water, but different attributes of the water. I know that is a simplified look at it. Who can totally know the mysteries of God. Jenyar had a good diagram to show it also.
My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.
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I believe you will find a torn view amongst christians if you look at the essence of your question. I think that the nature humans and love is on a conditional basis. Can a person give out unconditional love? I could be wrong...

FLORES- What does your religion talk about Predestination? Does everybody have the ability to believe, or are there chosen people that will receive the Salvation and others that wont? Im curious to know. The christian religion is torn with the belief...
 
I don't think the view of the trinity violates the oneness of god if viewed as such

Cant believe my eyes ........ and this after the recognition of the rape-misunderstanding , wow ........ seems like hating on me makes Flores a better person :D

Anyways , beautifull diagram and totally interesting :

I have a question . I think it doesnt show that father/son/spirit are part of God , but that God is in the middle between them 3 .
Whats up with that ? Or is it like Flores says , and is it simply the unity that represents God , and not 1/3 of the unified ?

I would agree more with such a diagram , but I dont think this one is representing it good enough , weither intended or not .

Now it seems God is excluded from all 3 of them ......

:confused:

My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it.

Most Muslims to start with are under the impression that you cannot know God , while everything that can be known IS God . Submission as it is putted means submission to that what God is , and God is not just how you put it .

But indeed most operate this way , as for the martyrs ...... I understand the point being illustrated , the fact that they believe they dont know it , but their act of martyrdom doesnt have to depend on such and usually doesnt , although Im surely not denying the highly religious motivation for actual suicide .

The suicide bomber is detinetly mentally disabeled and there are so many mentally disabled undiagnosed people all over the world that take dangerous steps to their goals

Yes well , everybody is mentally disabled then . Im sure you are aware that you in USA are quite an exception on how you live and in what circumstances , most peoples' lives really really sucks , and those of the Palestinians are one of the top-stories as a peoples .......

Dont worry Im not saying its a smart thing to do from an individual point of view , but dont shov it off like a mental disorder , its a sociological disorder that has grounds in the current situation of daily life . The only seriously disordered part , which IS religion based (as they interpret it) , is the fact they have to kill themselves during an attack . If this wasnt the deal they would be all placing bombs and throwing grenades , and thats when the simple circumstances come in .

or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.

Although many Muslims believe they dont know , is it not that they feel choiceless and do sign that contract IN THE HOPE that somebody signs it back ? If there was no hope for salvation , woudl a Muslim truly submit ? I dont think so , its all for afterlife .
 
Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.

But thats a totally different view isnt it ? Thats just transformation . Thats not partial , thats the complete essence that transforms .
 
Originally posted by Quigly
Another way to look at it is like water.
Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.
It is still in essence water, but different attributes of the water.
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I heard that one before and I agree with you, it's very simplified and possibly to view god as a lowly matter and to examine his properties using our limited knowledge of physics. But I do acknowledge the fact that god's will is in everything we do, and was definetly embedded in Jesus's actions and in commanding the holly spirit. To say that Jesus was god sent and inspired by god is the truth, but I don't see it necessary to take the extra step and say that he is a physical son or part of god. I think Jesus will not condemn me for seeing him as god sent and inspiration of the lord.

Originally posted by Quigly
[BFLORES- What does your religion talk about Predestination? Does everybody have the ability to believe, or are there chosen people that will receive the Salvation and others that wont? Im curious to know. The christian religion is torn with the belief... [/B]
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Islam really denounce predestination completely. And removes all mediators between god and his creation. Our system of salvation is based on purifying one soul though good doings. So many verses throughout the Quran speaks about the fact that god does not differenciate between one and another except with their use of ability to restrain from evil. We don't believe in any chosen people, and our own Prophet does not even have a clear bill from god to go to heaven. He will be judged just like us.

We know that in this life people will differ in opinion, but we trust that the only judge of the opinions is god.

[6.164] Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.
 
My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.
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It's a good question. I think it's one that Christians should ask themselves more often. The problem is that very few people are honest to themselves. You will sometimes hear atheists or agnostics say: 'I tried God, and He didn't convince me', or 'How could there be a God who permits so much suffering?'
These words expose that 'conditional love' you talk about. They can't even believe in God if He does not conform to their expectations, never mind love Him.

Our submission is based on love, not on fear. A submission based on possible (and even probable) punishment, is based on fear and fear leads to anger and resentment. This is the picture of God many people have in their minds: A strict boss just waiting for you to do something wrong to punish you. However, Jesus taught that those who endure suffering, and persevere in faith, are those who are blessed. The love you show will be rewarded to you a thousand fold. But it is a reward that requires truthfulness, for God judges the heart and the intention. There is a good German proverb that says: "The intention is the soul of the deed".

But if you testify of God's love, and do not practice it, you are lying to yourself. If you practice it ("take up your cross"), continue to have faith, and put your sins to death with Christ, God pardons them, and promises to raise you as He raised Jesus. It's an ongoing process, a fight against temptation and sin, but it is a fight that Jesus has already won.

So the short answer is yes: but it is a two-edged sword. Salvation is a gift that is easy to accept but hard to earn - it is free, but it's not cheap. By persisting in sin salvation is made cheap, and it is an insult to God.

While our debt has been paid, the hard part is remembering how much we owe to God, and many Christians forget God's mercy. So they either try to earn it (which can't be done) or they act as if they have already earned it (which they haven't).
 
Jihad:

Yeah, Again my water illistration doesnt attribute enough to the trinity...

So if Muslims do not believe in a Personal God that is involved with his people, then would they just believe that God is this distant being that they will do as much as they can to try to please him in this life in hopes for the next. It sounds like the religion then would make decisions out of Fear rather then a love.. Correct me if I am wrong.

As opposed, Christians believe in a Personal God that is involved with his people. More prone to move out of Love even though humans move with a conditional love. Then again... There are christians that move completely out of fear and with the motivation of the afterlife.
 
But I do acknowledge the fact that god's will is in everything we do, and was definetly embedded in Jesus's actions and in commanding the holly spirit. To say that Jesus was god sent and inspired by god is the truth, but I don't see it necessary to take the extra step and say that he is a physical son or part of god. I think Jesus will not condemn me for seeing him as god sent and inspiration of the lord
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Jesus coming in flesh was the fulfilling of many old testament prophecies.

...Islam really denounce predestination completely. And removes all mediators between god and his creation. Our system of salvation is based on purifying one soul though good doings. So many verses throughout the Quran speaks about the fact that god does not differenciate between one and another except with their use of ability to restrain from evil. We don't believe in any chosen people, and our own Prophet does not even have a clear bill from god to go to heaven. He will be judged just like us.
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I believe that man is totally depraved..(there is no good in him at all.) Without God drawing man to him(choosing him) man would always choose the way of sin and never find God... Man would still worship, because he was created to worship.. but man wouldn't worship God, they would worship Gods creation.. Man, animals, nature, Universe.... Once God draws man to himself and reveals salvation... Man would be created anew and good would flow out of him. Yes man would still sin, but man would no longer be under the bondage of a depraved sinful nature. Good would flow out of the mercy and grace shown to them by God and the plan of salvation through Jesus.
 
Originally posted by Quigly
Jesus coming in flesh was the fulfilling of many old testament prophecies.
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I agree, so is Prophet Muhammed, he satisfied many prophecies in the bible and I can show you if you wish.

Originally posted by Quigly
I believe that man is totally depraved..(there is no good in him at all.) Without God drawing man to him(choosing him) man would always choose the way of sin and never find God... Man would still worship, because he was created to worship.. but man wouldn't worship God, they would worship Gods creation.. Man, animals, nature, Universe.... Once God draws man to himself and reveals salvation... Man would be created anew and good would flow out of him. Yes man would still sin, but man would no longer be under the bondage of a depraved sinful nature. Good would flow out of the mercy and grace shown to them by God and the plan of salvation through Jesus.
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You are wrong here, and beside believing in predestination, you believe in the original sin. Those two issues make me puke when viewing christianity. I'm a mom that gave birth, and when my babies were born they had the clearest most beautifull soul, and if god chose to take them back at the time, their soul would be clear and would be admitted to heaven. If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here. Temporary vacation from eternal hell...?????God told us that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. Man has a free will and can keep his soul clean or loose it to sin. God doesn't differentiate between a white and a black or a woman and a man except with the way they treated the precious soul he have given them. To tell a man that he is prechosen is to finish the test before you start it, and how is god to know his devout worshippers from others if he has already prechose some.
 
Prechosen?

Originally posted by Flores
If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here?
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The way I see it--anyone who has set foot on this old Earth was 'chosen' to be here by their Creator--by whatever name we call our Creator, there really is only One Creator, and we are Co-Creators with our Creator. Therefore, when we are born into this world, this has guaranteed us 'salvation,' if you can even call it that. We really don't need to be 'saved' from anything since we've come here to learn what we didn't in the past and to build the Spirit we share with God and the human race. So, we are all chosen for a reason. We each have a purpose in life, but it is our duty to find out what that purpose is while we're here. There may be some kind of master plan that we, as humans, don't understand, but we are totally in charge of our destiny because we are given free will. God is not someone 'out there' sitting on a cloud, striking lightning bolts at us sinners. God is inside each of us to varying degrees. Therefore, we knew before we were born that we would come here. We're here, so we wanted to be here. That is because we are Co-Creators with God. Unless humans realize this, they will have missed their calling in this life. How dangerous religions are! They teach you to worship some old white-bearded man in the sky, but they fail to teach you that you are God's representative on Earth. True 'salvation' comes when you realize the Power of God is Within each of us!
 
Re: Prechosen?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
They teach you to worship some old white-bearded man in the sky, but they fail to teach you that you are God's representative on Earth. True 'salvation' comes when you realize the Power of God is Within each of us!
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I believe everything you say to a degree and thanks for the good pointers. I have to correct you though, no religion teach that god is a white bearded man in the sky striking lightening bolts except greek mythology. Monotheist religions starting with judiasm, christianity, and ending in Islam, teaches the concept of a one creator or unifier of all forces. Monotheism condemned ideas in greek methology that attributes sons and daughters and royal family to god and make god look and feel like a human.

I don't believe that god is inside of me and that doesn't belittle my believe in god a bit. How can god be inside of me while I know that I'm me and in control of me. I can choose to be good or bad. What if I choose to be bad, am I insulting god by stating that he is inside of me. God is good and pure and is not being subjected to a test here, I'm. God is outside of me and I'm fully responsible of me. Salvation is in the hands of god and not a power within me. I'm at the mercy of my creator.
 
You are wrong here, and beside believing in predestination, you believe in the original sin. Those two issues make me puke when viewing christianity. I'm a mom that gave birth, and when my babies were born they had the clearest most beautifull soul, and if god chose to take them back at the time, their soul would be clear and would be admitted to heaven. If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here. Temporary vacation from eternal hell...?????God told us that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. Man has a free will and can keep his soul clean or loose it to sin. God doesn't differentiate between a white and a black or a woman and a man except with the way they treated the precious soul he have given them. To tell a man that he is prechosen is to finish the test before you start it, and how is god to know his devout worshippers from others if he has already prechose some.
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Original sin is all over in the bible. It seems that you take parts of the bible but not all of it. Where does God say that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. If you don't believe in creation and the story Adam and Eve then I can see why you would think that. Man has a free will....Free will is defined :the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. I do not believe that anyone has a free choice. I do not think every action that a person would do is premeditated by God, but I still do not believe that we, as people (anyone)have the ability to make a decision on a completely neutral unbiased basis. It talks plenty in the bible about god choosing his people. The whole of the old testament is about the history of his chosen people. Jesus himself was part of the predestined plan for salvation. It completely makes since why you do not entertain the thought about predestination. It is because you do not believe in the original sin. Why then does the god you serve require good works? Original sin talks about the fact that we were born into this world with a sin nature. A tendency toward sin. Look at children.. Before they can even talk they can manipulate parents into getting what they want. Then they can become rebellious and throw fits... Kids get a little older and continue to be influenced by their own nature. Why? Sin is in them whether they like it or not. Christians have a baby dedication to where they dedicate the baby to God and charge the parents to uphold christian principles and teach their children until the age of accountability. Please help me understand why you do not believe in Original Sin.
 
God in You?

Originally posted by Flores
I believe everything you say to a degree and thanks for the good pointers. I have to correct you though, no religion teach that god is a white bearded man in the sky striking lightening bolts except greek mythology. Monotheist religions starting with judiasm, christianity, and ending in Islam, teaches the concept of a one creator or unifier of all forces. Monotheism condemned ideas in greek methology that attributes sons and daughters and royal family to god and make god look and feel like a human.

I don't believe that god is inside of me and that doesn't belittle my believe in god a bit. How can god be inside of me while I know that I'm me and in control of me. I can choose to be good or bad. What if I choose to be bad, am I insulting god by stating that he is inside of me. God is good and pure and is not being subjected to a test here, I'm. God is outside of me and I'm fully responsible of me. Salvation is in the hands of god and not a power within me. I'm at the mercy of my creator.
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You are given free will to do as you wish. When you choose to be "bad," you distance your Spirit from that of godliness (i.e. sin). Sin is a free will choice. Humans aren't perfect. That's why we need to be in tune with our Creator. Distancing oneself from one's inner spirit is removing oneself from the "face of God" as I understand it. Believing or not believing is a choice. Even the worst of people still have the innate Spirit of God in them. It's their choice to believe it or not. Even these people can sometimes be the richest or most successful or most beautiful people, yet be so ugly inside.

God is outside you, too. Everyone we see also has been given the power to contain the spirit of god. Whether or not they accept that gift is entirely up to them. So, I still say, we are not at the mercy of our Maker at all--we need to take responsibility for being whatever it is our own Spirit creates of us.
 
Jeremy
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Thank you for your profound thought on this matter. Can I quote you?

"I"

Just kidding, Place your opinions on what we have been talking about.
 
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