The bible rewards the rapists!

[(Q)]

Medicine woman

I give God credit for creating all that up to and including the process of evolution.

You don’t know that for a fact. Why are you not open to the suggestion that evolution is self-actuating? Why do gods have to be given credit for anything?

we are God on Earth--we were in the beginning, we are now, and we will be God at the end of our evolution.

Why do we need to be god? Why can’t we just be ourselves and nothing more?

I'm not sure there will ever be an end to our evolution, but at some point in the future, and it definitely won't be in our lifetime nor maybe even a thousand generations that come after us, there will be a total blending of races and genders, and we will all be One.

That has nothing to do with gods – that is an issue of procreation. BTW – how does the blending of genders occur? Will there be no more man/woman separation? Are you saying there will be only one gender?

All the while this is happening, God is with us and we are with God. There is only one soul that we all share, and that is the Spirit of God.

Do I share a soul with murderers and rapists? Why do they murder and rape and I do not?

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Flores
I hate to answer you with a site link and be cheap with you with my incredible knowledge, but I really couldn't find better words to explain this. The writing sums up the main reasons Atheists shy from religion, misconceptions of religion, and the true value of religion.

Sorry, but I don't see an answer there to my question. Everything argued is based upon the supposition of an interactive deity and without proof of that premise the rest is unsupported.

Are there conditions other than religious faith that qualify a person as great or is that your sole requirement?

~Raithere

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Sharing a soul

Originally posted by (Q)
Medicine woman

I give God credit for creating all that up to and including the process of evolution.

You don’t know that for a fact. Why are you not open to the suggestion that evolution is self-actuating? Why do gods have to be given credit for anything?

That's what I believe. It makes no difference to me what anybody else believes because they, too, may or may not realize the purpose of their existence. All I can do is say what I believe to be true for me. If others like my ideas and want to embrace them, that's okay by me, too. What do we really know is factual? Well, evolution is factual, and it could be happening all by itself. I just believe there is a greater plan involved. We are not here all by ourselves. We are interconnected with the human race which I believe carries the Spirit of God on Earth.

we are God on Earth--we were in the beginning, we are now, and we will be God at the end of our evolution.

First, let me reiterate that I am not a believer in the Bible nor am I Jewish, Xian or Muslim or any other affiliation. I am a human being and an independent thinker. It is my belief that we came in existence to be ourselves. I believe we have a greater mission on Earth that we can choose or not choose since we have free will. If we choose to be One with God, that is what we will be. Or, we can certainly choose not to be One with God or one with anything. We aren't condemned if we choose not to be. The fact that we are here in the flesh and the spirit proves to me that there is a God and We Are God.

I'm not sure there will ever be an end to our evolution, but at some point in the future, and it definitely won't be in our lifetime nor maybe even a thousand generations that come after us, there will be a total blending of races and genders, and we will all be One.

That has nothing to do with gods – that is an issue of procreation. BTW – how does the blending of genders occur? Will there be no more man/woman separation? Are you saying there will be only one gender?

I believe that the more 'perfect' human being will become androgynous and of one race. Let me say here that I am a heterosexual woman, wife, mother and grandmother, but this is what I believe will come about in the greater plan. All this talk about homosexuality being an abomination will eventually disappear when there is only one gender that holds an equal balance of male and female. At that time, there will be no reason to have two sexes as reproduction will not require the sexual act to procreate. I know this doesn't sound like a fun place, but with our advanced evolution, we will gag at the thought of male-female copulation.

All the while this is happening, God is with us and we are with God. There is only one soul that we all share, and that is the Spirit of God.

Do I share a soul with murderers and rapists? Why do they murder and rape and I do not?

Yes, we share the same soul with the bad guys, too. That doesn't mean that we are like them or have the same desires as them. The human race still has free will. As a whole, we are a good creation. Eventually the bad guys will all disappear. That won't be in our lifetime, though.

Bottom line to my beliefs is that we should love one another, but first we must to learn to love ourselves unconditionally (and this is very hard to do.) The first thing to do to get on this track of becoming One with God is to forgive yourself for all the hardships you've put yourself through. Accept the forgiveness you are giving yourself. And forgive everyone else in the world who may have hurt you in some way--even a very small way. And ask for forgiveness to everyone else you may have hurt along the way--no matter how small. You don't need to make a big production out of this. It's actually better to do it mentally everyday of your life. You most certainly don't need a priest, a church, a savior, a god, or anything else. You just need to have these thoughts in your mind and heart to become One with God.

Thank you for your responses to my posting.

 

[Jenyar]

Medicine*Woman (or should I call you Iza?)

What you are saying is no more than glorified humanism, with some naturalism thrown in for effect. Surely you realize that? The words "god" and "spirit" are impotent in your beliefs, except that it's a nice spiritual way of saying 'we are united by our shared humanity and our natural environment'. Your god cannot act. It is entirely dependent on ourselves. The earth is self-sufficient, but it is also subjected to us. Gaia knows no justice, only nature.

I don't mean to be insulting. But you have to see it as it is. I can recognize humanism when I see it, and it says "I am god". It makes sense because its true, but only superficially. Have you ever tried to entertain the idea that our Creator might not be just an anthropomorphism of our humanity, but the other way around? That we are secondary to God - a creation, like a potter and his clay?

It might be the ultimate in human ambition - to become "one with god" - it rings so true that it calms and numbs us to the real God: The One who is saying "Realize what you are doing! Yes, I am with you, but still 'I Am': I am not human that I am fickle, that I am tempted, or that I act with injustice! I am with you but I am not you."

Our inclination for independence is natural, but it becomes contrary to God's will when it starts to exclude Him as our Creator. When we start worshipping ourselves instead of Him. It's a false security!

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Raithere
Sorry, but I don't see an answer there to my question. Everything argued is based upon the supposition of an interactive deity and without proof of that premise the rest is unsupported.

Are there conditions other than religious faith that qualify a person as great or is that your sole requirement?

~Raithere

Raithere,
And really what is wrong with Faith. Faith feeds vision that feeds true findings. I'm not sure if any of our breakthrough scientists or artists that merely went through the system of studying the steps and ended up adding the extra step. Actually, many of them didn't study the field they were about to change a great deal at all, and it was there inner deep faith and vision about the field that inspired them.

It's really very simple. Where I see the Lack of Atheist knowledge is in the big picture. Too many times I see Atheists as skeptics not even willing to entertain subjects like the existance of a nonmaterial soul, the field of phsycology in whole, the idea that there is a greater order to the universe, ect.....Tell me how can an Atheist scientist in any of these areas paint an accurate picture of a connective universe, if they don't have faith in a connective universe with special orders.

And please don't tell me that the laws of physics and math are sufficient for our understanding, or I'll be disapointed. Atheists are too busy plugging and chugging that they forget that the universe problem is one of billions degrees of freedom, and we are barely solving for problems in nature with three or four degrees of freedom, so please be realistic.

So an Atheist is like this person who is trying to figure out the universe from a little room, while the theist is one that is trying to figure out the arrangement of the furniture in the room from another planet. Which one is more important, the universe or the furniture in the room.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Medicine*Woman (or should I call you Iza?)

I can recognize humanism when I see it, and it says "I am god". It makes sense because its true, but only superficially. Have you ever tried to entertain the idea that our Creator might not be just an anthropomorphism of our humanity, but the other way around? That we are secondary to God - a creation, like a potter and his clay?

It might be the ultimate in human ambition - to become "one with god" - it rings so true that it calms and numbs us to the real God: The One who is saying "Realize what you are doing! Yes, I am with you, but still 'I Am': I am not human that I am fickle, that I am tempted, or that I act with injustice! I am with you but I am not you."

Jenyar,
How come when you are speaking with me, you cling to the idea that man and Jesus and God are one and when you speak to another you have such great outlook on things?

I'm with you but I'm not you......Amen.....So beautifull. That's what I've been screaming about, god is near us and with us, but he is not in us.

 

[okinrus]

How do we know what is good without God within us?
This is what the Quran says "It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.". Also I do not mean that we are possessed by God but that God can give us hints at correct behavior.

 

[Jenyar]

Flores,
I won't contradict myself. What I say is always what I believe. I never said "man and Jesus and God" are one - that sounds more like something Jan Ardena or MedicineWoman would say (no disrespect intended). Jesus is the part God who became visible to us. The Holy Spirit is the part of God that lives in each of us. We are not part of God, but God has made our hearts as his temple. God knows our hearts, and He is closer to us than we are to ourselves.

Through our belief in Jesus we have come near to God. Jesus has left the Spirit as a pledge that He will return, and the Spirit pleads with God for us. If we do something that is God's will, we do it in "His Spirit". Just like when you say that a man is an archaeologist "in the spirit of Indiana Jones". But God's Spirit is not an abstract concept - it is the Living God himself. He is everywhere "in person" where His name is spoken and where He is worshipped. Not "somewhere out there".

John 14
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

So I have not contradicted myself. When Jesus was on earth, he was "God with us" (Immanuel), in person. Our submission is "in the Spirit" of his submission to God. When Jesus said we must be "born again" in the Spirit, this is what he meant: we are "dead to the world and to sin". Jesus had submitted even to human death for our sake, he went where we cannot go and return, and God accepted him as a perfect sacrifice, resurrected and glorified Him - through Jesus, God received more glory than any man could give, and He himself was glorified.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
How do we know what is good without God within us?
This is what the Quran says "It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.". Also I do not mean that we are possessed by God but that God can give us hints at correct behavior.

I agree okinrun, that god is near us and is in knowledge of everything, including every heart beat, but god also says in the Quran, that he created the soul with degrees and made it aware of it's own right and it's own wrong. So Although god is aware of all, he's not interfering with our choices and he is not yet purifying us or entering our hearts. It's us that allow the belief in him to enter our hearts to guide us, but god doesn't physically enter our heart, only the belief in him that strengthen us and make us closer to him.

First, I agree with Medecine woman and others who said that we were created from one soul, god, but we are not one soul. You can view this like we all are decendants of adam but we are not adam.
[6.98] And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

Second point to be made clear is that god instructs us that after death, our souls will die with our bodies, but although our bodies will go to earth, our souls will be helpless in the hands of god.
[3.145] And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed;

Third, the souls are described in the Quran as the subconscious, they are the area of the brain in which we hide things. We are accountable for what we reveal and what we hide. Once you violate your subconscious, it's recorded, yet we have no access to it, we are no longer aware of it neither can we change it.
[5.52]they shall be regretting on account of what they hid in their souls.
[6.24] See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.

Fourth, God stated clearly that in our judgement we are alone, even the believer. Our soul and what it has earned is the only thing accepted from it. There is noway that I can accept the notion that god is inside of me if he tells me that I'll be judged solely on what my soul has earned.
[2.48] And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped.

Fifth, But we are not totally alone as you say, because god knows the soul he has created and he will not burden it more than it could take.[2.286] Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.
And to the unbelievers, since god is intimate with their souls and every degree of it, he will:
[68.44] So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not:
[36.54] So this day no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and you shall not be rewarded aught but that which you did.

So god's intimate knowledge of us doesn't imply that he is inside of us, just intimate with us.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Flores,
Through our belief in Jesus we have come near to God. Jesus has left the Spirit as a pledge that He will return, and the Spirit pleads with God for us. If we do something that is God's will, we do it in "His Spirit". Just like when you say that a man is an archaeologist "in the spirit of Indiana Jones". But God's Spirit is not an abstract concept - it is the Living God himself. He is everywhere "in person" where His name is spoken and where He is worshipped. Not "somewhere out there".

This is the profound difference between christians and Muslims. We follow the Quran that says that between the man and god there will be no intercession accepted neither will be pleads.

[2.123] And.be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.

No mediator to help, no profit to help, no jesus to help, no Papa or mama to plead, no thing, just us, our deeds, and our maker.

I think the no plead scenario is a stronger more reliable point of view from my prespective.

 

[okinrus]

I agree okinrun, that god is near us and is in knowledge of everything, including every heart beat, but god also says in the Quran, that he created the soul with degrees and made it aware of it's own right and it's own wrong

Christians believe that God is only truely good and is the source of all goodness. Even if you accept that God instructs us on what is "good" we still do not know what good means. For example, God could say "Do not murder" but how do we know that God's word is good?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
Christians believe that God is only truely good and is the source of all goodness. Even if you accept that God instructs us on what is "good" we still do not know what good means. For example, God could say "Do not murder" but how do we know that God's word is good?

So does Muslims, I agree that god is the source of all goodness, see the 79 attribute of god as stated in the Quran. That's why he created a soul that know the good from the evil. When god says don't murder, all we have to do is listen to god and reflect unto our soul and we'll find that god command agrees with the goodness of our soul and contradicts with our soul definition of evil. I know without rules that killing is bad and theft is bad, ect....The religious scriptures are merely there to affirm and comfort me that my inclinations are correct.

God is everything, He is the:
1 The Merciful
2 The Compassionate
3 The Sovereign
4 The Holy
5 The Flawless
6 The Giver of Faith
7 The Guardian
8 The Incomparable
9 The Compeller
10 The Proud
11 The Creator
12 The Maker of Perfect Harmony
13 The Shaper of Unique Beauty
14 The Forgiver
15 The Subduer
16 The Bestower
17 The Provider
18 The Opener
19 The Knower
20 The Constrictor
21 The Expander
22 The Abaser
23 The Exalter
24 The Honorer
25 The Dishonorer
26 The All-Hearing
27 The All-Seeing
28 The Arbiter
29 The Just
30 The Subtle
31 The Aware
32 The Forebearer
33 The Magnificent
34 The Concealer of Faults
35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness
36 The Highest
37 The Great
38 The Preserver
39 The Maintainer
40 The Reckoner
41 The Majestic
42 The Generous
43 The Vigilant
44 The Responder to Prayer
45 The Vast
46 The Wise
47 The Loving
48 The Glorious
49 The Resurrector
50 The Witness
51 The Truth
52 The Trustee
53 The Strong
54 The Firm
55 The Friend
56 The Praised
57 The Appraiser
58 The Beginner
59 The Restorer
60 The Life-Giver
61 The Slayer
62 The Living
63 The Self-Existing
64 The Resourceful
65 The Noble
66 The Unique
67 The One
68 The Eternal
69 The Able
70 The Powerful
71 The Promoter
72 The Postponer
73 The First
74 The Last
75 The Manifest
76 The Hidden
77 The Governor
78 The Exalted
79 The Source of All Goodness
80 The Acceptor of Repentance
81 The Avenger
82 The Pardoner
83 The Clement
84 The King of Absolute Sovereignty
85 The Lord of Majesty and Generosity
86 The Equitable
87 The Gatherer
88 The Rich
89 The Enricher
90 The Protector
91 The Punisher
92 The Creator of the Beneficial
93 The Light
94 The Guide
95 The Originator
96 The Everlasting
97 The Inheritor
98 The Right in Guidance
99 The Patient

 

[DJSupreme23]

Originally posted by Jeremy

If it is not to do with religion, why then, are so many islamics & muslims nuts? I hear about waves of suicide bombers from the islamic world, but not too many atheist bombers. Face it, religion is hatred and rejection of other ideas. The fact that any one religion proclaims itself as above others shows this. Islam especially. Imagine dressing up in silly outfits to bring you closer to god, bowing to Mecca at all times of the day, completely nuts. Mind control at its finest! God could not care less about such pathetic rituals.

According to the U.S. State Dept., 97 % af all terrorists are Moslems.

And those are old numbers - before 11/9/WTC.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DJSupreme23
According to the U.S. State Dept., 97 % af all terrorists are Moslems.

And those are old numbers - before 11/9/WTC.

Please Define terrosist, and provide the US departement official statement site.

Oh, and it's Muslim, not Moslem

"If I'm to worry about answering every dog's bark and pig's oink, I'd run out of answers in less than an hour." Flores, 2003

 

[okinrus]

According to the U.S. State Dept., 97 % af all terrorists are Moslems.
And those are old numbers - before 11/9/WTC.

There are not too many other terrorist because the North Ireland conflict has calmed down. There is no other place where people are being oppressed in large numbers but the middle east. Not to mention the fact that some verses in the Quran can be taken out of context with the entire book. Also the difference between a revolutionist and a terrorist is small.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

God within Us

Originally posted by Flores

So god's intimate knowledge of us doesn't imply that he is inside of us, just intimate with us.

I like to think that the Spirit of God flows through us to the degree that we allow it to--i.e. the term "Spirit-filled"). Again, I'm NOT Xian, Muslim, Jewish, or of any organized religion. I do, however, tend to find the Quran to be more truthful and less confusing than the Bible. The most peaceful people I know are Muslims. I give no validity to the Roman Catholic Church, although I was a 'scorch-the-Earth' Catholic convert for many years. There is more corruption in Xianity than in all other faiths.

 

[Flores]

Re: God within Us

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
I like to think that the Spirit of God flows through us to the degree that we allow it to--i.e. the term "Spirit-filled

First, thanks for the kind words about Islam, and Christians and Jews, and even Hindus, and Buhdists really could not be generalized by our view of their scriptures or the church doings. Many of them are very peacefull, loving, caring, dedicated human beings who I look up to and hope that I'll be lucky enough to spend an eternity in heaven with them.

It is hard for me to make an exact statement on whether the spirit of god may flow through us or not. Mainly, because I don't know what is the spirit of god and because it could be whatever I made myself believe it is or actually an evil spirit of Satan. I'd rather not dwell on that and concentrate on being me and training me to restrain from evil and do the good, rather than convince myself of something that may have no basis and actually might end up misguiding me.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: God within Us

Originally posted by Flores

It is hard for me to make an exact statement on whether the spirit of god may flow through us or not. Mainly, because I don't know what is the spirit of god and because it could be whatever I made myself believe it is or actually an evil spirit of Satan. I'd rather not dwell on that and concentrate on being me and training me to restrain from evil and do the good, rather than convince myself of something that may have no basis and actually might end up misguiding me.

Good point. I'm not sure any of us can describe or identify exactly what the Spirit of God is. I like to think of it as the force of positive energy that created us. This positive energy force 'fills' us and moves "through" us for the common good.

On the other hand, there are the dark forces--the negative force which empties us of our soul. This is a state where longing and need abound. It is as if these people are living in a vacuum. They soak up everything for themselves but they are still empty.

I see the Spirit of God like this: Us humans are like water faucets where water flows through and out giving us life; goes down the drain to the sewer; the sewer empties into the water supply; it's purified and is returned to us through our faucet. Okay, the Spirit works like that, too. The Spirit of God was in us from the beginning, even before we were born or conceived. When we came into this world as vessels for the Spirit of God, we were given options (free will) to utilize the Spirit of God to whatever degree we choose. If we let the Spirit that is already in us flow through us and back out into the human race and nature, the Spirit will come back to us in abundance.

It's true that everyone's perception may be individualized. And, you are also correct about being concerned about evil spirits misguiding us. That happens, too. I guess its just something that you innately can feel or understand. All I know is that what the Bible teaches, and what I've learned in Xianity, disagrees with this innate feeling that I now have about my understanding of God.

I believe there is only ONE creator--call it God, Allah, whoever! Jesus was no more powerful than any of us are. However, I believe this to be the true message he was trying to teach about the 'kingdom of God being within.' There's no need for Xianity. 'Salvation' isn't necessary. We are here because we are innately 'good.' Even the bad guys are here to try to learn to be good. They don't always understand this concept, though.

 

[Flores]

To Medecine Woman

Beautifully put. You are a good writer.

When you put this way, I find myself agreeing with you. It's so hard to put thoughts in writing, almost like one is putting his thoughts in a jail cell and subjecting it to people's criticism. And the helpless words lie there without ability to answer back. Such a helpless hopeless situation. That's why I feel sorry for the bible and the Quran. They are lying there so helplessly while people misinterpret them left and right and blame them for everything that happens....Poor words...really.

Your spiritual thoughts seems to be correct an inline with the intent of the bible and the Quran....I know....you fear the doctrines and for a good reason, and you don't have to admit to a doctrine, don't jail yourself, and get to know god as a free person like you're doing right now...I commend you and wish you best of luck.

 

[Hippocampus]

Originally posted by Flores

The bible is corrupt for the simple reason that the language under which it was written no longer exist and the original texts are unavailable to check the modern versions for accuracy. Asking me to accept it blantaly is merely ignorant and unfair. You are asking me to believe the crusaders and the catholic church words.....those who controlled the bible and it's editions for hundreds of years.

That is not true. The dead sea scrolls which are over 2000 years old were found in 1947/48. They are a major reference to help prove the validity and truth of the Bible and our current translations (Old Testament, which by the way speaks of the coming Messiah, not a prophet or teacher).
Noone could have created a Jesus except Jesus himself, its impossible, he isnt just some myth that men just made up, he changed the whole world centuries before your false prophet muhommed was even born. And what of the current testimonies of Muslims who have been praying to God and seeking truth in Mosques who have Jesus appear to them in visions and dreams? This happens every day, but you harden your heart to the good news of Christ and refuse to accept it. Jesus is still alive, that is why we believe, because he proves himself and has touched each and every single one of His TRUE followers in way that they know it is Him and only Him. He's a god of substance, who can and does prove Himself to be the one and true God. He says in His word, that He will reveal himself to whoever seeks him diligently with his whole heart. I did that without ever reading that verse, and right after he revealed himself to me, i opened up my Bible to that very verse. I have been researching and reading many books and searching to try and find some other truth, but i just cant deny the power of the Holy Spirit even if i wanted to, ive seen to much with my own eyes and have been a witness to the saving power of Jesus Christ. The Koran mentions the name Jesus 91 times and says he was a great teacher, but you deny every word he ever taught. God also said, as written in the Dead Sea Scrolls and all other written records, that Isaac is the blessed and chosen son, not Ishmael. That is proven to be true and accurate. Ishmael was born first yes, but he was illigitamately of Abram's servant Hagar, and not of his wife as God had promissed and later fulfilled through Sarai. Jesus is alive and i have seen him.