The atrocities of Christianity

river said:
It's just violence was how Christianity was brought into the world
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Can you be more specific? The Romans tortured and crucified Jesus Christ. This was part of Gods plan that the son of God be crucified at the hands of those who thought that violence was acceptable. I'm sorry, but you won't understand the logic of why God did this. Christianity is not about Vulcan logic; it's about living life in a meaningful way. It's about following the teachings of Christ. Atheists are firmly against the idea of living a meaningful life.

I thought these Bible verses were particularly relavent to the atheist's expectations of proof. Mark 8.

8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

8:13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
 
Mazulu said:
Atheists are firmly against the idea of living a meaningful life.
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Um, what?

I thought these Bible verses were particularly relavent to the atheist's expectations of proof. Mark 8.

8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

8:13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
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How convenient. "A sign? Oh, sorry, that's not until next generation. What's that? It is the next generation? Well, come see me generation after that one then. No, really."
 
Mazulu said:
Can you be more specific? The Romans tortured and crucified Jesus Christ. This was part of Gods plan that the son of God be crucified at the hands of those who thought that violence was acceptable. I'm sorry, but you won't understand the logic of why God did this. Christianity is not about Vulcan logic; it's about living life in a meaningful way. It's about following the teachings of Christ. Atheists are firmly against the idea of living a meaningful life.

I thought these Bible verses were particularly relavent to the atheist's expectations of proof. Mark 8.

8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

8:13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
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Jesus was a rebel of the Zaddikim sect, that is very little known but the info. Comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls
 
Magical Realist said:
Ahh but then the Gnostics were one of those heretical sects wiped off the face of the earth by Christians. Same with many other sects. Christians had a very low tolerance threshold for competing religions.
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A very good example were the Cathars. The Cathars were Christian Gnostics and considered by the Catholic Church to be dangerous because of their ideas. Were they dangerous? From: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/gui-cathars.asp
An experienced inquisitor describes the Albigensians

It would take too long to describe in detail the manner in which these same Manichaean heretics preach and teach their followers, but it must be briefly considered here.

In the first place, they usually say of themselves that they are good Christians, who do not swear, or lie, or speak evil of others; that they do not kill any man or animal, nor anything having the breath of life, and that they hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ and his gospel as the apostles taught.
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Here is a small part of what happened (wikipedia):
The leader of the crusaders, Simon de Montfort, resorted to primitive psychological warfare. He ordered his troops to gouge out the eyes of 100 prisoners, cut off their noses and lips, then send them back to the towers led by a prisoner with one remaining eye. This only served to harden the resolve of the Cathars.
...
The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the refugees dragged out and slaughtered. Reportedly, 7,000 people died there. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice.[32] What remained of the city was razed by fire. Arnaud wrote to Pope Innocent III, "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex."[33][34] The permanent population of Béziers at that time was then probably no more than 5,000, but local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls could conceivably have increased the number to 20,000.
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Balerion said:
Mazulu said:
Atheists are firmly against the idea of living a meaningful life.
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Um, what?
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OK, can you name anything from your atheist perspective that might make my life meaningful or fill it with a sense of joy and wonder? Last I checked, atheism frowns upon meaningfulness.

I really like this quote Book 2 of Thessalonians.
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ...
 
Mazulu said:
OK, can you name anything from your atheist perspective that might make my life meaningful or fill it with a sense of joy and wonder?
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I don't know you, so it would be difficult to say. Are you telling me that the only thing that gives your life meaning or gives you joy is your faith? So does that mean you're unfulfilled by your career and your love life, that you have no interesting or exciting hobbies or interests? You're on a science forum; do the ideas of deep time or the scope of the universe fill you with awe?

Last I checked, atheism frowns upon meaningfulness.
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In that case, I doubt you've ever checked. What atheist has ever frowned upon meaningfulness?

I really like this quote Book 2 of Thessalonians.
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ...
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Yeah, God's a scumbag. How is this relevant to the discussion?
 
Magical Realist said:
Ahh but then the Gnostics were one of those heretical sects wiped off the face of the earth by Christians. Same with many other sects. Christians had a very low tolerance threshold for competing religions.
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Do you know anyone who doesn't have a low threshold for competition?
 
Balerion said:
Do you know anyone else for whom "competition" means killing or converting everyone on the other side?
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Competition involves a wide range of behaviors, from cutting in front of other people in a waiting line, to killing people.
 
Magical Realist said:
Religious intolerance and persecution IS a behavior caused by religion. I don't see how you can deny something so intuitively obvious. It's forcing you now to play alot of semantic games that only seem desperate attempts to shore up your own sinking thesis. I'm thinking I'll just back out and let Balerion takeover. He's essentially saying everything I want to say but only better!
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Of course you can say that religious intolerance is caused by religion. But intolerance is not caused by religion even if religion is used to demonstrate intolerance even of other religions.
Look at it this way; What causes racism? Is it religion? Is black intolerance caused by white supremacy?

No- ignorance and fear cause intolerance.

While religion may pander to the ignorant and to the fearful, this does not mean religion made them fearful or ignorant. It just gave those who are that way something to grasp at.

What makes those folks fearful and ignorant has more to do with the structure of their brain and it is there that you will find a cause for their behavior.
 
Neverfly said:
Of course you can say that religious intolerance is caused by religion. But intolerance is not caused by religion even if religion is used to demonstrate intolerance even of other religions.
Look at it this way; What causes racism? Is it religion? Is black intolerance caused by white supremacy?

No- ignorance and fear cause intolerance.

While religion may pander to the ignorant and to the fearful, this does not mean religion made them fearful or ignorant. It just gave those who are that way something to grasp at.

What makes those folks fearful and ignorant has more to do with the structure of their brain and it is there that you will find a cause for their behavior.
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Oh, so you mean those white supremacists that raise their children to hate Jews, blacks, and everything that isn't white through racist and bigoted propaganda, that has nothing to do with it at all? That's not promoting and fostering that ignorance and fear? Phew! That's a load off my mind. Here I was thinking that all these racist morons were raising more racist morons, but in reality they don't influence the process at all. Thank God!

Here we have again you failing to view the larger picture. Yes, ignorance and fear can lead to irrational hate, but so can propaganda and indoctrination. You can't simply pretend that it doesn't because it's not the only cause.
 
Balerion said:
Oh, so you mean those white supremacists that raise their children to hate Jews, blacks, and everything that isn't white through racist and bigoted propaganda, that has nothing to do with it at all?
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No and I can see that you've misunderstood my claim.
Balerion said:
Here we have again you failing to view the larger picture. Yes, ignorance and fear can lead to irrational hate, but so can propaganda and indoctrination. You can't simply pretend that it doesn't because it's not the only cause.
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No, I'm not ignoring it which is shown by the fact I've already acknowledged it. It almost appears as though you're trying to claim I'm adhering to a different position than I actually am.

I already pointed out that there are many factors. However, Indoctrination is a Behavior- it's as much a behavior as violence is. These behaviors persist in most major religions, in spite of different doctrines, scriptures and the like. It's because the base premise that created the religion already was a part of human nature. That human nature went into creating the religions.
Take away the religions and they will create other groups, such as Nazi's and KKK. They always band together and find like minds.
 
Magical Realist said:
Can there be any doubt that Christianity is, historically speaking, one
of the most murderous religions that has ever existed?

I like the way you have handled this thread, and your points of view are refreshingly realistic.

Historically there is no worse (religious) persecution than under the 1200 years of Papal reign, but when it comes to numbers including politics, only communism has surpassed the Catholic record. Of course, we cannot discount protestantism for its contribution, and also the British Empire which operated under the influence of the C of E.

Either politics or religion are typically bloody, and a careful study of history shows that both these fields are under the same powers of evil, hence the human race is always subject to a short confusing and oppressive life style, but thankfully it is opposed by half decent people who seek to make life prosperous and worth while, and these kinds of people are simply genuine about peace and freedom, regardless of their profession of faith or lack of it.

Most people do not know what the Bible says about these issues and so throw it out as well, but it says enough to expose religions and all the major political powers to show that none of them have anything to do with God and His government. The Jews killed the old messengers and then Christ, and the religious and political powers have ever sought to destroy the genuine few who are prepared to die for the sake of freedom. Rome did it, the Papacy killed over 60 million, communism kills any half decent human being. Fascism killed non conformists. And the last world empire will do the same. And guess what? it is religious after a type of Christianity!
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Balerion said:
Yeah, God's a scumbag. How is this relevant to the discussion?
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You and other atheists express hostility towards the faith. When I respond with some passages from the bible, you call God a scumbag? :eek:

Here is another good quote 2 Timothy,
2:24: The Lord's servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
2:25: in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,
2:26: and they may recover themselves out of the devil's snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.
 
Mazulu said:
You and other atheists express hostility towards the faith.
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You express hostility toward atheists.

The hostility you refer to is directed at the perceived negative impact of doctrine or dogma. Although I'm making the unsavory argument that humans will probably behave this way without the religion (It's our nature and why theses religions were created in the first place) - it does not detract from the fact that people will murder, despise and behave poorly all in the name of God. It's an unpleasant thought that humanity has this nature- that removing the religion will not cure it. It may reduce the incidents, it may help alleviate the severity of it- but the nature will remain. Educating, overcoming ignorance and encouraging critical thinking may help- but there are a great many people that simply will not adhere to that type of behavior. Removing the religion would only allow society to reach more critical thinkers that are currently falling through the cracks. But those that need religion, if denied religion, will find some other way to vindicate or justify their nature.

Religion can also curb certain negative behaviors among the simple minded. It's not all negativity.

If my nature is to be quick to anger, it's simply my nature as an angry person. If I take anger management classes and learn ways of controlling my nature, it may help alleviate the symptoms and encourage better responses but the nature remains even after the training and will be a constant struggle for me all my life.
If I was an alcoholic, I may recover my sobriety, but I'd always be an alcoholic even if I never drank again.

Certain influences can encourage or discourage certain behaviors. While religion may be an influence on certain peaceful behaviors, it may also be an influence on violent behaviors. So, do away with religion and apply a different influence- you may influence a portion of the population a certain way, but another portion of the population are able to reject the influence and seek out like minds.
 
spidergoat said:
That might be so, but religions last longer than those ideologies. Where is Stalinism now? Where are the Khmer Rouge now?
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Strangely enough, historians credit the long life of catholicism (just as an example) to its ability to adapt to changing social norms.

IOW religion, by its very nature, is constantly in a state of introspection, reformation, etc.
I mean you can't tell me that you haven't noticed all these atrocities of christianity that people are harping on about occurred about 5 ecumenical council's ago?
 
lightgigantic said:
Mostly the lower end unless you have some wild ideas about how a handful of angry religious persons suddenly incriminates several billion others.
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Why does a hostile, aggressive Christian get to believe in God, but I don't get to believe in God?
 
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