Thank God I'm An Atheist (Warning: STRONG Content)

[§outh§tar]

Free Will.

What does free will have to do with it? Could you explain?

God didn't "cause" any of these things.
If anything, humans are more to blame for several reasons.
Global Warming.
Overpopulation of areas that can not sustain that level of life (animals move or are nomadic).
Not to mention the fact that with the scientific and agricultural advances we have at our fingertips and the vast resources we have to put those technologies into action, NO ONE on Earth has to starve of hunger or thirst (regardless of God).

Oh! Such a cunning argument! Looking into history before the advent of 'adverse technology', could we blame human beings for the eruption of Vesuvius? Or what shall we say then of the Black Death? What shall we say of locust swarms devouring crops and causing widespread starvation? Is this too the fault of humans?
And let us now look at the present. Shall we now blame humans for the loss of life and destruction of property in Asia now? Was it human beings who caused the tsunami? In anticipation of a response that the officials over there were reluctant to be abreast technologically, let us take a look at the recent tornados in Florida? Shall we then blame humans for that too?

Claiming humans are now capable of forestalling natural disaster is irrelevant. Were the childrens parents responsible for the drought then? Even now that relief aid has been brought to some of these countries, did these children still have to go through that first? Regardless of what excuse is put forward, it still does not follow that the children should be the recipients of such suffering (if we are to assume God is loving), ESPECIALLY if it really is someone else's fault. Even if you try to trace the suffering all the way to the parents, it still does not follow that a loving God allows the child to suffer.

 

[§outh§tar]

So examine the cultural references behind your dismal photos. You won't find God there. What you will find is the Primitive Culture of Tribal and Ethnic Conflict. These cultures of Poverty are effectively Pre-Civilized... it would be a big jump for them if they were Neo-Lithic, that is, if they reached that stage of Human Moral Development that Euro-Asians had reached ten thousand years ago.

What an idiotic comment! Senseless rubbish with absolutely no justification provided! Take your prejudices elsewhere.

Which People of the World are likely to become the Most Prosperous? Well, those who are, or have been, most Civilized for the longest -- whose Civilization is most genetically 'in the blood' so to speak. These are the Inhabitants of the Indian Subcontinent, the Chinese, and their younger sibling Catholic Europe. These people have gone generations suppressing their personal selfish urges for the good of the collectives in which they were born. They naturally cooperate.

I hope you are not as stupid as this post is getting. What does supressing personal selfish urges have to do with God allowing children to die, allowing drought to occur, allowing tsunamis to kill children and their parents? As I told one_raven, EVEN if the parents are responsible, it does not follow that the children must suffer horrendously and die for it.

They naturally get along well with each other.

And the tribes and clans in Africa don't? What stupidly inane prejudice! What does this trait have to do with preventing a tsunami or a volcano eruption or a disease outbreak?

It is as though they have physically incorporated God into their very being.

That is a senseless, inane, and unjustified observation then. Again, no basis at all. You disappoint me Leo; foolishness unheralded.

 

[Lori_7]

The Vatican is not God. The Pope is not God. Organized religion is not God. God does not punish or condemn. The wages of sin is death...it's law...and we all suffer for the world's sin...each in our own ways and in our own time. And God does intervene...and God does save us. This world and this flesh is not all there is.

Shit...there's probably worse than that going on in my own neighborhood. Priests rape little children...people kill each other and themselves over money...or sex even...and let's not ever forget that Princess Diana was suicidal. So tell me...what in the hell is your point Southstar? And while you're at it...what have you done lately to save a starving child in africa? Give me a break...

 

[Jenyar]

Strange argument for an atheist anyway. What do the deaths of those people mean to an atheist? This outrage reveals a possible conceit: are we here for the earth (subject to it), or is the earth here for us (subject to us)?

 

[§outh§tar]

what have you done lately to save a starving child in africa? Give me a break...

You're absolutely right Lori. Praying doesn't do any good..

 

[Jenyar]

You're absolutely right Lori. Praying doesn't do any good..

What did you pray for? "Save the world"?

 

[§outh§tar]

Strange argument for an atheist anyway. Tell me, SouthStar, what do the death of those people mean to an atheist?

I feared the day Jenyar would ask his poorly concealed questions, meant obviously to trick me into contradicting myself, yet I can do nothing to stop the onslaught..

It means (to me) that the God Christians believe in has failed in His promise (as quoted in the post). I can't speak for any atheist. Let me remind you though, I am only an atheist with respect to the Christian God. After all, this is coming from a guy who wrote a proof of God.

 

[§outh§tar]

What did you pray for? "Save the world"?

Make good on your promise? Do something to manifest yourself maybe? Do anything for the children?

EDIT: Just to clarify. I don't mean I prayed now, that would be absurd. I mean I prayed these sorts of things when I was Christian. I just supposed God would do His will when it was His time and that it was not for us to question.

 

[Jenyar]

I just ask you to be honest about your own position for a change, and not argue from other people's perspectives. Please answer the question without resorting to bad theology.

 

[§outh§tar]

I just ask you to be honest about your own position for a change, and not argue from other people's perspectives. Please answer the question without resorting to bad theology.

Which one?

 

[Leo Volont]

What an idiotic comment! Senseless rubbish with absolutely no justification provided! Take your prejudices elsewhere.



I hope you are not as stupid as this post is getting. What does supressing personal selfish urges have to do with God allowing children to die, allowing drought to occur, allowing tsunamis to kill children and their parents? As I told one_raven, EVEN if the parents are responsible, it does not follow that the children must suffer horrendously and die for it.



And the tribes and clans in Africa don't? What stupidly inane prejudice! What does this trait have to do with preventing a tsunami or a volcano eruption or a disease outbreak?



That is a senseless, inane, and unjustified observation then. Again, no basis at all. You disappoint me Leo; foolishness unheralded.

Dear Southstar,

Have you ever traveled? I wonder, because you don't seem to have anything other than politically correct assumptions that can well be fed on without ever leaving a comfy suburban home somewhere.

Not that one necessarily needs to travel. Being well read could also help in giving one a useful education -- a view of how things actually are, and why they are like they are.

But you seem to be clueless.

First you complain that things are so bad. And then you complain that you have nothing to blame but a God you do not believe in. When somebody DOES offer an explanation, instead of evaluating it dispassionately and politely, you lash out in rudeness, ironically enough, calling the other party 'ignorant'. Hmmm.

 

[Jenyar]

What does all this suffering mean to an atheist? If it is just there, and we are at the mercy of the planet we are dependent on for our livelihood, what is the practical difference to your argument against God? God never promised suffering, wars or natural disasters would cease -- in fact, Jesus said we are to expect them:

Matt.24:6-8 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Luke 21:25-26 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.​

You seem to be worshipping an atheist god, one that never conquered the death that afflicts the world like this, and is unfamiliar with suffering. Either that, or you were under the illusion that all is well with the world.

 

[§outh§tar]

Dear Southstar,

Have you ever traveled? I wonder, because you don't seem to have anything other than politically correct assumptions that can well be fed on without ever leaving a comfy suburban home somewhere.

Not that one necessarily needs to travel. Being well read could also help in giving one a useful education -- a view of how things actually are, and why they are like they are.

But you seem to be clueless.

First you complain that things are so bad. And then you complain that you have nothing to blame but a God you do not believe in. When somebody DOES offer an explanation, instead of evaluating it dispassionately and politely, you lash out in rudeness, ironically enough, calling the other party 'ignorant'. Hmmm.

I would advice you to go back and review your pos. you will find that it is your post which is rude. You will also find that it is prejudiced. You will also find that it provides no substantiation. You will also find that it has nothing to do with the topic, and yet you say I am clueless.

 

[§outh§tar]

What does all this suffering mean to an atheist? If it is just there, and we are at the mercy of the planet we are dependent on for our livelihood, what is the practical difference to your argument against God? God never promised suffering, wars or natural disasters would cease -- in fact, Jesus said we are to expect them:

Matt.24:6-8 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

You seem to be worshipping an atheist god, one that never conquered the death that afflicts the world like this, and is unfamiliar with suffering. Either that, or you were under the illusion that all is well with the world.

You and your presuppositionalism. I am arguing against the Christian God, in case you didn't read the post. I didn't say I was arguing against God. If there isn't a difference, I'll be happy for you to show me why.

P.S. In case you didn't know: earthquakes, famines, and wars had been happening before Jesus. That is, if you think that was some sort of enlightening prophecy or whatnot. Therefore I don't know what your point with that is, if there is any.

You seem to be worshipping an atheist god

If there ever was a more absurd contradiction in terms! Atheist god?

 

[Jenyar]

Yes: what you call the "Christian God"... you are practically worshipping Him from the "outside", like some detestable idol. You are still evading the question, so maybe I should rephrase again: without being an "atheist with respect to the Christian God", how do the deaths of thousands fit into your current worldview?

 

[zanket]

And so we may ask, if God's promises here on earth don't come to pass, what makes anyone think they will come to pass with respect to heaven?

They do come to pass here on Earth. Just look at all the enjoyment y’all are getting here out of those bloated kids. That’s what you asked for from God, and that’s what you are receiving.

 

[top mosker]

The children are not guinea pigs, but if they and other bad stuff did not exist then our lives would suck. We’d have no way to assess the good stuff as “good.” We want contrast so we can enjoy the good and enjoy resolving the bad.
[...]
Note with this tsunami and any other disaster how lucky the survivors feel. Every disaster causes good feelings along with the bad. This contrast keeps life from being a numb experience and we can thank God for that.

I've always had a problem with this. It's utter bullshit. I would much rather be without suffering 100% of the time. It wouldn't get boring at all. It's simply a scapegoat used to justify things that go on in the world while we turn a blind eye.

 

[Leo Volont]

I would advice you to go back and review your pos. you will find that it is your post which is rude. You will also find that it is prejudiced. You will also find that it provides no substantiation. You will also find that it has nothing to do with the topic, and yet you say I am clueless.

I may not have provided enough substantiation to be utterly boring, but I did offer the hypothesis that Civilized Peoples tend to carry on with a Civilized momentum that appears to go beyond cultural influence. Then I specified the various people's who can be considered as proving my point. Is that NOT substantiation.

What did you or anybody say to refute my point? Nothing. Just rudeness and closed-mindedness, hiding behind current ideas of what is politically correct thinking for Grade Schoolers.

Besides, who am I supposed to be prejudiced against. While African's and Mongolians might recent my calling them Barbarians to the bone, certainly the Hindus and the Chinese would be flattered that I am calling them admirably Civilized. You don't hear me being a White Supremacous, do you. So you are calling me prejudiced only because that is the worst insult that a Politically Correct sixth grader can think of.

Also, while I was thinking about it, I was wondering about Egyptians. Unlike the Persians who were almost entirely wiped out by the Mongols, they have largely survived. Egyptians also were once the core pioneer group of Christian-Catholic ascetics. So I would expect to hear more from Egyptians. I don't have much to prove it, but with their history of being Civilized, I would suppose they could do well in the future, if they could ever get out from under Barbarian Domination.

Then I was thinking of the Persians, who were sourced out of the Oldest Civilizations. They were almost entirely annihilated by the Mongols... the men that is. Then I thought of the women, and girls who were taken back to be slaves in Mongolia. Hmmmmm. Women and Girls have babies. It may be that Mongolia, today, is carrying some of the Civilized Blood of Ancient Persia... and of China too, as many Chinese were taken to be slaves in Mongolia.

The sword of Slavery cuts both ways. Civilizations who import barbarian slaves often end in paying a high price for introducing barbarism into their midst. But Barbarians who carry off Civilization, may find themselves being Civilized by those who they thought were their inferiors.

 

[duendy]

I tried to dig the second page of this thread, but couldn't, so i went to page one and saw the pictures of the suffering children, etc, and some of the posts, and i think i now have the gist of it

A wondering why a 'God' allows such suffering, and hwat use has sayings from the Bible to do with such horrific suffering

I then hear some posters talking about a 'Creator' ...and later there is posts about 'God' and 'i am an athiest'.....and so on

Here's my thoughts. What is always not usually considered in these kinds of debates re 'atheism vs religion' or vice versa, is the PREMISE of the argument. for example, when you say 'Creator'...and if the other side challenges that. you are BOTH under the same premise!...ie., that there exists a 'Creator'....if you aregue against 'him' you are still caught up in the belief, UNLESs you are aware that the whole idea of a Crator he-God is an invention of the patriarchy

INVENTION OF THE PATRIARCHY

That much more ancinet is the belief that Goddess Is Earth and Cosmos

Now what would such a MAJOR transition from the latter to the former entail? Well we can see it NOW, and it is revealed in the writings and doings of patriarchal myth and culture. Women are denigrated; people of dark skin are denigrated; children are denigrated; Nature is denigrated.......!

now having read that, remember thos awful pictures again and relate the two

In other words.....patriarchy is prevasive all over the globe. in that the poweerful countries have a stranglehold on the world and are causing it to be a living hell, ESPECIALLY for so-called un-developed countries. Go learn about American ploicy....go read Arundhati Roy just type her name at google......add 'The New American Century' and also her name with added '2004' so as to see some lectures. You will THEN see the REAl causes for such horror as those pictures show
It is WE humans doing this horror. our myths justify the crap we do. this means we must really look more closely at our myths/stories we live be, ancinet ANd modern!

Regarding natrual disaster. some cant be helped. for example, someone mentioned Vesuvius. Apparently that goes off ever so many hundreds of years--so i suppose one couldn't blam the Pompeyians for building a town araound it.........But hey, Earth is an organic being, not a static lump of rock. If we were more intelligent--sensitive, we may notice things more. like signs of earthquakes, etc. animals have this senistivity. but us moderns have lost it......but to blame some patriarchally invented 'Creator' is ludicrous, i my opinion

 

[Leo Volont]

I tried to dig the second page of this thread, but couldn't, so i went to page one and saw the pictures of the suffering children, etc, and some of the posts, and i think i now have the gist of it

A wondering why a 'God' allows such suffering, and hwat use has sayings from the Bible to do with such horrific suffering

I then hear some posters talking about a 'Creator' ...and later there is posts about 'God' and 'i am an athiest'.....and so on

Here's my thoughts. What is always not usually considered in these kinds of debates re 'atheism vs religion' or vice versa, is the PREMISE of the argument. for example, when you say 'Creator'...and if the other side challenges that. you are BOTH under the same premise!...ie., that there exists a 'Creator'....if you aregue against 'him' you are still caught up in the belief, UNLESs you are aware that the whole idea of a Crator he-God is an invention of the patriarchy

INVENTION OF THE PATRIARCHY

That much more ancinet is the belief that Goddess Is Earth and Cosmos

Now what would such a MAJOR transition from the latter to the former entail? Well we can see it NOW, and it is revealed in the writings and doings of patriarchal myth and culture. Women are denigrated; people of dark skin are denigrated; children are denigrated; Nature is denigrated.......!

now having read that, remember thos awful pictures again and relate the two

In other words.....patriarchy is prevasive all over the globe. in that the poweerful countries have a stranglehold on the world and are causing it to be a living hell, ESPECIALLY for so-called un-developed countries. Go learn about American ploicy....go read Arundhati Roy just type her name at google......add 'The New American Century' and also her name with added '2004' so as to see some lectures. You will THEN see the REAl causes for such horror as those pictures show
It is WE humans doing this horror. our myths justify the crap we do. this means we must really look more closely at our myths/stories we live be, ancinet ANd modern!

Regarding natrual disaster. some cant be helped. for example, someone mentioned Vesuvius. Apparently that goes off ever so many hundreds of years--so i suppose one couldn't blam the Pompeyians for building a town araound it.........But hey, Earth is an organic being, not a static lump of rock. If we were more intelligent--sensitive, we may notice things more. like signs of earthquakes, etc. animals have this senistivity. but us moderns have lost it......but to blame some patriarchally invented 'Creator' is ludicrous, i my opinion

Have you gone far enough with your thinking to correlate Matriarchies with Old Civilization and Patriarchies with Nomadic Barbarism. You know, it may appear that Patriarchal influences dominate modern western societies, but that is only reflective of the Barbarian Upper Classes.

Certainly having a Barbarian Ruling Class is not healthy for a Civilization, and the corrosive effect of Barbarism at the Top can eventually wear down a Civilization until it collapses, but with all that considered, a True Mother Earth Civilization based upon all of the Feminine Nurturing Virtues carries a great deal of moral momentum. For instance, Civilizations tend to rise up from where other Civilizations have fallen.

The worst off Peoples are those Barbarians who are luckless enough not to have anybody but themselves to exploit. Nomads, when isolated from other peoples to steal from or exploit fall into the deepest poverty. Yes, and they are almost always Patriarchal.

As an aside, I wonder that so many people can be so full of admiration for Matriarchal Societies while they have so much contempt for what must be one of the most significant Matriarchal Civilizations -- that of the Marian Catholic Church. Afterall, the High Middle Ages -- the Resurrection of Civilization out of the barbaric Dark Ages -- was entirely attributable to the Culture of the Blessed Virgin Mary. European Civilization was a product of Goddess Worship. And Europe's decline will be a result of the rejection of that same Goddess.