Stun guns and cops.

Should cops use stun guns?


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I have a very split opinion about law enforcement.
split? you've either been treated fairly by them or you haven't.

back to the discussion at hand.
the situation at tulia deserves further research, which i'll do.
there is also the case of the guy strapped to a gurney and being tased.
also the case of Justin Volpe. this last one i have looked for the reason of his arrest but i can't find anything.

so okay here are 3 instances, maybe.
this alone does not prove police corruption.

edit
i have to say the situation at tulia was indeed a sham based solely on the fact that no drug paraphernalia was found in any of the arrests. that fact alone proves the arrests were racially motivated.
it also must be pointed out that the person responsible was not a sworn officer of the law, he was a welder by trade and hired by the tulia seriffs department as an undercover informant.
if no other info is offered i must conclude that the people at tulia was racially targeted.
 
Last edited:
Leopold99 said:

split? you've either been treated fairly by them or you haven't.

On the whole, I come down on the side of "unfair". But I have that nasty, naive hope for humanity, so I owe it to the police to consider those who have been nice, fair, or otherwise a positive influence.

so okay here are 3 instances, maybe.
this alone does not prove police corruption.

Combined with the rest of the evidence, though, there is a strong suggestion of police corruption. Especially when cops admit it. But this is America, and even the cops are innocent under the law until proven guilty. Which is why I'm sick of cops having greater rights and protections under the law than other people. The privilege is abused rampantly.

it also must be pointed out that the person responsible was not a sworn officer of the law, he was a welder by trade and hired by the tulia seriffs department as an undercover informant.

He is not alone in responsibility. The entire law-enforcement structure failed at Tulia.
 
Which is why I'm sick of cops having greater rights and protections under the law than other people. The privilege is abused rampantly.

Rampantly???

Perhaps a little perspective would do you good ....and all of us, for that matter. Do you have any statistics to show this "rampant" abuse of power in the police forces of the USA?

I'm so curious to see how the odds of police abuse stands up to the odds that you use in your arguments for gun control.

Baron Max
 
3 cases that we've uncovered so far.
if this is all we can come up with i sure won't worry about corrupt cops.

the case of tulia really bugs me though. this has to be one of the biggest miscarrages of justice i've ever seen.
 
3 cases that we've uncovered so far.
if this is all we can come up with i sure won't worry about corrupt cops.

the case of tulia really bugs me though. this has to be one of the biggest miscarrages of justice i've ever seen.
Obviously, there are many more cases, just assuming one or two percent of the accusations of corruption are true.
I still refuse to believe that violent corruption and abuse are rampant, although I agree that some overstepping of ethical boundaries probably is "rampant".
 
I agree that some overstepping of ethical boundaries probably is "rampant".
i assume you are talking about the UCLA library incident or the gang member being "punched" in the face.

the library incident could very well have been staged. i found out the "victim" is a criminal justice major, over here from iran.
others in the library that were foreigners and some of color said the incident was not racially motivated.

the incident of the "punches" was, i feel, justified in that the "victim" was a gang member. some of our cities biggest problems are gang related.
 
i assume you are talking about the UCLA library incident or the gang member being "punched" in the face.
No, just that people do shitty things, and take advantage of their situations a lot - not all the time, but enough to say that behavior is rampant - and cops are no exception.
Overstepping ethical boundaries would include hundreds of scenarios much less violent than those two.
 
for sam
since you like to express your idea of police brutality in america i decided to do the same for your country india

people live in fear of being tortured while detained
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA200282006?open&of=ENG-IND
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA200152006?open&of=ENG-IND
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA160032006?open&of=ENG-IND

sounds like i won't be moving to india any time soon.

you can check out all 310 here:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ind/index&start=1
 
for sam
since you like to express your idea of police brutality in america i decided to do the same for your country india

people live in fear of being tortured while detained
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA200282006?open&of=ENG-IND
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA200152006?open&of=ENG-IND
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA160032006?open&of=ENG-IND

sounds like i won't be moving to india any time soon.

you can check out all 310 here:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ind/index&start=1

Not to say there is no abuse of power by the police in India, I'm certain there is, but two of those links are about Indian nationals in Burma (Myanmar) and Thailand.

And policemen are tried and convicted in a court of law, if accused.
 
sam
you asked for some independent studies of taser risk
the only thing i can come up with is the 50 or so independent coroners reports and the following:
A peer reviewed study by Journal of Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology (PACE) suggest a safety margin of greater than 20:1 for human adults greater than 100 lbs -- Acetaminophen has an 8:1 safety margin.

* Peer reviewed study used adult pigs chosen to simulate range of adult human body weights between 30 and 120 kg (66 lbs. and 264 lbs.)
* Results suggest a safety index > 20:1 for human adults > 45 kg (100 lbs.)
http://www.taser.com/facts/qa.htm

according to the above taser use is over twice as safe as asperin
 
sam
you asked for some independent studies of taser risk
the only thing i can come up with is the 50 or so independent coroners reports and the following:
A peer reviewed study by Journal of Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology (PACE) suggest a safety margin of greater than 20:1 for human adults greater than 100 lbs -- Acetaminophen has an 8:1 safety margin.

* Peer reviewed study used adult pigs chosen to simulate range of adult human body weights between 30 and 120 kg (66 lbs. and 264 lbs.)
* Results suggest a safety index > 20:1 for human adults > 45 kg (100 lbs.)
http://www.taser.com/facts/qa.htm

according to the above taser use is over twice as safe as asperin

So what is the risk to a fetus if a pregnant woman is tasered? And what of people with a medical condition? Do they face the same risk?
 
So what is the risk to a fetus if a pregnant woman is tasered? And what of people with a medical condition? Do they face the same risk?

Just keep pushing the limits, don't ya', Sam? I mean, on and on and on and on and on and on and...... Don't you ever give it a break?

Baron Max
 
Just keep pushing the limits, don't ya', Sam? I mean, on and on and on and on and on and on and...... Don't you ever give it a break?

Baron Max

The study is only on adults at 100 lbs. It does not cover fetuses or those with medical conditions.

And I'm responding to leo's post.
 
The study is only on adults at 100 lbs. It does not cover fetuses or those with medical conditions.

Yeah, sure ....there should be studies done for each and every single type of condition that's possible on the planet before its deemed safe to use. From 100# up to 250# in 2# increments ...both male and female, and pregnant females, too.

Shouldn't we also test it against a pregnant woman carrying a fetus with Downs Syndrome, too? ...in the same 2# increments?

Ooooh, how 'bout testing against an obese, pregnant woman carrying twins who have Downs Syndrome AND addiction to crack cocaine? And then, of course, with a woman carrying triplets.

Oooh, wait ....and surely we can't forget to test against an obese, alcoholic, pregnant woman who uses meth and both her twin fetuses are already addicted to alcohol AND meth ...with tendencies towards homosexuality!

Oooh, wait ....how 'bout......? ....LOL!

Sam, you go from ridiculous to spectacular to sensationalism in the blink of an eye ......and you think that people should take you seriously. Amazing, truly amazing.

Baron Max
 
Yeah, sure ....there should be studies done for each and every single type of condition that's possible on the planet before its deemed safe to use. From 100# up to 250# in 2# increments ...both male and female, and pregnant females, too.

Shouldn't we also test it against a pregnant woman carrying a fetus with Downs Syndrome, too? ...in the same 2# increments?

Ooooh, how 'bout testing against an obese, pregnant woman carrying twins who have Downs Syndrome AND addiction to crack cocaine? And then, of course, with a woman carrying triplets.

Oooh, wait ....and surely we can't forget to test against an obese, alcoholic, pregnant woman who uses meth and both her twin fetuses are already addicted to alcohol AND meth ...with tendencies towards homosexuality!

Oooh, wait ....how 'bout......? ....LOL!

Sam, you go from ridiculous to spectacular to sensationalism in the blink of an eye ......and you think that people should take you seriously. Amazing, truly amazing.

Baron Max

When there are several instances of miscarriages following tasering of pregnant women?

Yes. I do believe that cops should look into it.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/13/the_odd_body_taser_stungun/

The chance of dying after being shot by a taser or stun gun is about one in 870. Dr William P Bozeman, professor of emergency medicine at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, estimates this in the September 2005 issue of the Annals of Emergency Medicine.

But Dr Bozeman acknowledges that any such estimate is based on very little data. Tasers and stun guns have been in use for only a short period of time and there are still few studies assessing their various effects.

Nevertheless, medical studies suggest that more not fewer deaths could result from the introduction of tasers and stun guns for police work. Some doctors worry that more deaths could occur since police may be more likely to use tasers and stun guns on a suspect thinking they are safer than handguns.

Researchers first made this point in 2001. Tasers and stun guns were first introduced in police work in South Africa in 1999. In the 1 September 2001 issue of The Lancet, bioengineers Dr Raymond Fish of the University of Illinois and Dr Leslie Geddes of Purdue University, argued that tasers and stun guns may not be as safe as many of us are led to believe.

Instead, tasers and stun guns are known to cause a suspect to suffer cardiac arrest, respiratory failure, malfunction of pace-makers, damaged eyes, injury to the central nervous system, and death. The death of an innocent foetus can occur as well as tasers and stun guns can cause a miscarriage when used on a pregnant woman. Police would find it difficult, if not impossible to know if a female suspect is pregnant.

According to Drs Fish and Gedess, death of a suspect can result, in particular, if they have taken certain drugs - something that is often the case when arrests take place. They stress that tasers and stun guns should not be used in all ways police sometimes use them now - but would not use handguns in those same circumstances. These circumstances would include, for example, in the breathalysing of a suspected traffic offender, the controlling of an unruly fan at a sports match, or the restraining of a possible drunk and disorderly suspect. Recent findings of other research includes:

* Of 75 people who died after being shot with a taser or stun gun, the taser was considered a potentially contributory cause of death in 27 per cent of cases. Source: Drs J Strote and H Range Hutson from the University of Washington Medical Centre in Seattle and reported in the October/December 2006 issue of Prehospital Emergency Care.
* The use of cocaine boosts the shock value of a taser or stun gun by 50 to 100 per cent. Source: Ten researchers led by Dr D Lakkireddy from the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Cleveland, Ohio, and reported in the August 2006 issue of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.
* Use of tasers and stun guns results in fewer injuries to police compared with using clubs, dogs, or handguns to restrain suspects. Source: Drs E Jenkinson, C Neeson, and A Bleetman from the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust in Solihull, United Kingdom and reported in the July 2006 Journal of Clinical Forensic Medicine.

http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2005/02/14829.php
A MINISTERIAL advisory group expressed concern about the safety of stun guns ahead of a Victoria Police trial of the weapons, a report obtained under Freedom of Information has revealed.

In the report, obtained by a coalition of Victorian legal groups, the advisory group that discussed the possible introduction of Air Tasers said there was a lack of scientific evidence about their safety.

A 12-month trial of the guns by the force's special operations group is expected to end later this month.

In its report, the ministerial advisory group said the use of Tasers had been found to increase the risk of miscarriage in pregnant women, heart attack and stroke in people with cardiovascular disease and sudden death in people taking drugs.

Other groups on whom a Taser should not be used included children, adolescents, older people and people with mental illness.

The 12-month trial was launched on the basis of a study on Tasers conducted by Melbourne's Alfred Hospital.
 
When there are several instances of miscarriages following tasering of pregnant women?

Sam, I'm agreeing with you!!!! We should test the tazers for every single possiblity that could ever possibbly happen in the world before we accept them as "safe" and give them out to the dirty, stinkin', nasty, vicious, hateful, mean, violent, horrid cops.

We should also test it against harm to pregnant women who are obese, who are addicted to cocaine, AND who have only one eye! Can't be too careful, now, can't we?

Baron Max
 
So what is the risk to a fetus if a pregnant woman is tasered?
why don't you asked the pregnant woman why she is breaking the law and putting her unborn child at risk?
you asked for an independent study, i found one for you.
And what of people with a medical condition? Do they face the same risk?
who really cares? besides people like al sharpton that is.
we cannot allow people to make excuses for breaking the law. period.
 
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