Studies say: soul exists.

[Raithere]

Yup. I don't think I've indicated anything to the contrary.

I guess I misunderstood. When you said, "in which could lie who knows what" I was taking it to mean you were talking about a place where souls might exist as some sort of special force.

Have you seen some of my related ramblings on this topic? I only ask because I've pretty well explained how I think the relationship works. I'll try to post a link here if I remember where it was.

I don't think I have. Please do post a link.

~Raithere

 

[wesmorris]

I guess I misunderstood. When you said, "in which could lie who knows what" I was taking it to mean you were talking about a place where souls might exist as some sort of special force.

I meant it like... hmm.

To make a quick point about your last post, this comment specifically:

The same rules apply

I agree, but we haven't really figured out exactly what they are yet. For instance if there are compactificated dimensions, that in and of itself tells us a lot about the rules, and opens up other questions about the rules.

So without knowing all the rules for sure... "who knows what" could exist there. Hypothetically, there are patterns that exist only within each dimension. My point about "souls" potentially lying there is that a "pattern" could exist in a compactificated dimension (utlized by conditions brought about by the chemistry of the brain) which is reflective of the "imaginary component" (that which is pure abstract) of a mind.

Obviously purely hypothetical but it seems like a reasonable idea to me.

I don't think I have. Please do post a link

.

I'll wade through it soon if I remember.

 

[Gravage]

Actually you are dead wrong. We have very little idea what actually causes the brain to work. We have macro theories, but the details are not filled out.

Claiming that 'virtually everything in our body has been detected' is both misleading and ignorant. Your claim is no more supported than the claim that the sould does exist.

Than you obviosuly didn't follow the brain's discoveries.It's the slef-organized system that makes the brain work and it has nothing to do with soul,since I already proved above by examples that soul can't exist.

 

[wesmorris]

since I already proved above by examples that soul can't exist.

LOL.

Well, I admire your zeal but that statement is simply arrogant. You haven't proven anything.

 

[John Connellan]

"It is impossible to prove anything"

I love posting that one around different threads when people come up with those arrogant statements.

 

[wesmorris]

Raith.

Well I can't find all of it but here are a couple of things. I thought I ended up talking about it at the end of this but I'm not sure.

Here is a blurb I found about it. Does this peg your quackometer?

The model seemingly endorsed by Hawking in "The Universe in a Nutshell" includes "imaginary time" as a fourth spacial dimension.

Okay here is something strange I was thinking recently regarding the subject (originally posted here

A = brain = cause = arrangement of spacetime = physical => is confined to four-space
B = mind = effect = arrangement of ideas = abstract => is confined to p-branes other than four space.

At the intersection of the two lies awareness. (edit: rephrased "awareness is a result the intersection of A and B")

I think A intersected with B is consciousness.

At least I think it's something like this. At least this is the illusion is produces to me.

EDIT: Okay awareness lies at the intersection A and B, and "consciousness" is the union of A and B.

 

[Gravage]

LOL.

Well, I admire your zeal but that statement is simply arrogant. You haven't proven anything.

Oh,really?Than look for those tests,than you'll see.

 

[Gravage]

Raith.

Well I can't find all of it but here are a couple of things. I thought I ended up talking about it at the end of this but I'm not sure.

Here is a blurb I found about it. Does this peg your quackometer?

Well,you can't beat this:Everything what has a beginning has the end!HUmans have their beginnings,so they have the end,too.

 

[Gravage]

Well,you can't beat this:Everything what has a beginning has the end!HUmans have their beginnings,so they have the end,too.

Another proof there is no life after death:
It has been proven that when an person dies,or you don't have one section of the brain,you lose your personality and ego.Energy does change properties everytime it creates or destroys something.The radiation level of dead people falls to absolute zero,when they die.If there was really a soul,this energy would be going in the havens,but it doesn't,radiation level of any human simply disappears.

 

[Gravage]

Jan,

It is interesting how because of our different perspectives we do see this issue as opposites. I have the impression that too many people DO think that souls exist, and you see the opposite. No criticism intended here, it was just an observation. And I’m not sure which one of us might be correct.

Yes I agree. No argument on that.

Yes definitely. It is one reason why I support Mind Uploading research where I think what you suggest may actually be possible in the not too distant future.
Cris

Wrong,what makes you think that your consciousness will live forever,nothing lives,or lasts forever,not even the universe,there is no eternal life.Mind can't live without body-fact.
Copied:
There is irrefutable proof that there is no life after death-at least not in this known,observable universe:To live after death you would break laws of physics,here is how:Any system(from the simplest to the most complex,it doesn't matter if it's living or dead) works in this way.Let's suppose you have a mobile phone.Every device,organism(both living and dead) and everything else in nature has a system inside itself which keeps its existence,so does the human body.If something is damaged like cell phone(works on the same system like human body does,only difference is human body is much more complex-but human body works on the same principles) you can't turn that on,you must fix it.so,in near-death experiences,where the brain is supposedly shut down,genes are trying to make a communication(that's how our body and anythingelse in nature works) to start life processes again,but in the time everything in body is shut down,genes are mutating(only problem is that this stuff you can't see it on the medical devices which show all other patient's vital functions dead-if genes successfully mutate than we will come back to life,but if the damage is just too big to be impossible for genes to mutate and restart the life than it's all over-we're dead(including all of our memories,all of kinds of emotions and etc.).It's pretty much like when you try to repair car's engine.If you fail,the engine won't start,and the car is "dead",if you turn the engine on,than your car has established connection and communication with its other parts,than you can say "it came back to life" and "had" near-death experience.The same prosegure goes with a cell phone and everything else in nature-so there is zero possbility for that.
Only the nature and energy are eternal.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Gravage,

Wrong,what makes you think that your consciousness will live forever,nothing lives,or lasts forever,not even the universe,there is no eternal life.

You obviously know what consciousness is. Can you please share it with us?

Mind can't live without body-fact.

It's not a fact, it is an opinion.
Read up on near death experiences.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Red Devil]

Wrong,what makes you think that your consciousness will live forever,nothing lives,or lasts forever,not even the universe,there is no eternal life.Mind can't live without body-fact.
Copied:
There is irrefutable proof that there is no life after death-at least not in this known,observable universe:To live after death you would break laws of physics,

er - prove it? You prove to me that there is nothing after death. The Laws of Physics do not apply, they are only laws in THIS universe. If you were to travel down a worm hole to another universe, there is no guaranteee that our laws apply there either. Of course there is no life after death IN THIS UNIVERSE to use your own quote. Dimensionally the two do not and could not equate, but that is not proof that life after death (LAD) does not exist. Like those who argue for LAD, they are only hypothesis'. I was always open minded about things, but experiences that I HAVE HAD, and messages THAT I HAVE RECEIVED tend to prove the point that there is "something" after death.

 

[Gravage]

er - prove it? You prove to me that there is nothing after death. The Laws of Physics do not apply, they are only laws in THIS universe. If you were to travel down a worm hole to another universe, there is no guaranteee that our laws apply there either. Of course there is no life after death IN THIS UNIVERSE to use your own quote. Dimensionally the two do not and could not equate, but that is not proof that life after death (LAD) does not exist. Like those who argue for LAD, they are only hypothesis'. I was always open minded about things, but experiences that I HAVE HAD, and messages THAT I HAVE RECEIVED tend to prove the point that there is "something" after death.

Everything what has a beginning has the end,it has been proven just about every time.There are no us after death,there is matter and energy,but we have been transformed into another form of matter,With dying of the brain,our ego and personality dies,too.

 

[Gravage]

Actually you are dead wrong. We have very little idea what actually causes the brain to work. We have macro theories, but the details are not filled out.

Claiming that 'virtually everything in our body has been detected' is both misleading and ignorant. Your claim is no more supported than the claim that the sould does exist.

Oh,really and what do you expect to see?

 

[Gravage]

Gravage,

Wrong,what makes you think that your consciousness will live forever,nothing lives,or lasts forever,not even the universe,there is no eternal life.

You obviously know what consciousness is. Can you please share it with us?

Mind can't live without body-fact.

It's not a fact, it is an opinion.
Read up on near death experiences.

Jan Ardena.

I've explained above near-death experiences,above.Consciousness is the ability of danger of the outside world,everyone has it.It is created in the brain by electrical impulses.Once you get sleep,consciousness diappears,becuase you're not aware that you sleep,it's subconscious process.Our minds can't live outside our bodies,to create mind you must have information and ability to adapt to your environment and ability to find something about it.Once the communication between genes and cells is destroyed or heavily damaged,mind is destroyed,too.Mind can't live without body,because there has toe be an system that would activate that mind process.

 

[Red Devil]

Gravage; you have explained your "theory" about various things but you do not KNOW! As the Moody Blues once sang "Thinking is the best way to travel". Eastern mystics have supposedly travelled "with their minds" to distant places and described on their return to their body things which, when checked out, were quite correct. These are recorded in days before computers, television etc. The atoms which came together to form our body, will soon dissipate into atoms again and rejoin the universal constant.

When we are both dead, we must arrange a meeting "up there" and discuss your theories in more detail. After all, we will have time!

 

[Gravage]

Gravage; you have explained your "theory" about various things but you do not KNOW! As the Moody Blues once sang "Thinking is the best way to travel". Eastern mystics have supposedly travelled "with their minds" to distant places and described on their return to their body things which, when checked out, were quite correct. These are recorded in days before computers, television etc. The atoms which came together to form our body, will soon dissipate into atoms again and rejoin the universal constant.

When we are both dead, we must arrange a meeting "up there" and discuss your theories in more detail. After all, we will have time!

Here is why we will never meet ourselves after death:Because we all have the beginning,everything what has a beginning has the end,too.If something is 100% sure and correct,that that sentence.Give me one example of something that had a beginning and lasted forever,there is no such thing or entity,who had a beginning and lived forever-only in faiy tales.

 

[Paula]

Gravage with all due respect:

If there were indisputable proof that the soul does not exist atheists would make up more than 14% of the world's population. This has never been stated by any scientists because they have not yet defined the nature of consciousness.

In Britain a similar study was done on a smaller scale and the experiences did not fit the pattern or description of hallucinations. Experiencers reported knowledge they could not have gained from the vantage point of the bed, for example the description of an item not visible from their bed or a person who came in and out while they were still clinically dead. I read about it a year or so ago and the doctors were all quite shocked that they had not gotten the pragmatic results expected. My own friend had a very explicit near death experience which is what drew my interest in the subject.

Every person who claims to meet up with dead relatives never describes meeting one still living (something that could easily happen in a hallucination) or meeting the President or Captain Kangaroo.

Also, Gravage, since what humans don't know is far greater than what we do know, it is rather presumptuous to say that we can postulate all possible aspects of the universe, all dimensions (of which Stephen Hawking and his crew now believe there are either ten or twenty-six) and the laws governing such.

If the soul is an entity separate from even the mind, then your thesis on the destruction of the mind is irrelevant. Many, many NDE's contain information gathered from a vantage point distinct from the body's so your danger theory also does not hold up.

 

[Leviticus]

sorry, i couldnt be bothered to read all of this rubbish you people are spewing. someone just tell me. if there is a soul, where is it?
tell me and then i will refute your statement immediatly after i read it....

 

[wesmorris]

sorry, i couldnt be bothered to read all of this rubbish you people are spewing.

If you didn't read it, how do you know it's rubbish?